Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

It will run, but very poorly. Depending on calibration it may keep timing down and revert to a fixed fueling - this is also known as a limp mode. Since I do not know your set up it is hard to tell what ECM may or may not do. In other words you really need to fix EGR.

I do not burn chips - I have modified my ECM to use flash memory on a special adapter board. It is an advance ECM tuning mod PCBA which allows for rapid operational parameter changes. It is designed to tame highly modified engines or extract the last ounce of performance out of stock.

If you want to burn your own chips you'll need to ready and 'study' the following FAQ. And mean read it couple of times for it to sink in.

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/di...uide-book.html


//RF

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Thanks for the info. I havent bought the parts needed yet. I went to the junk yard to pull a harness but it all seamed a bit overwellming. I a visual learner and reading all the posts without pics makes my head spin. I need a seqential how to from start to finish on every step and detail but probly no such.

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Well me too. But you have to have some basic understanding how ECM and EFI components operate to make it all worth while. In this thread there are numerous photo's and diagrams that you will not find any where else. Lets start at the very beginning:

What are you trying to a accomplish and how much time do you have (money helps shorten time, but it is always in short supply)? As a group - we can walk you through this.

//RF

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

I have a 65 truck and I tired of fighting with carbs and cold starts and I want reliability of efi. I have more time than money. I would like to start with a harness what is the ideal donor vehicle.?

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Same here and after spending hundreds of dollars on a new carb with little or no improvement! About four years ago I was fighting with original Q-Jet, went to Holley with little or no improvement. I was p'off.

What size engine (an trany) do you have and what shape is it in???? If it is stock 350 and / or it has a mild RV cam the swap is really easy. Even if it is a 283 or 327 the late eighties EFI from C/K, burban can be easily adapted. TBI EFI is a speed density system - it relies on MAP sensor to determine engine load (among other inputs) to calculate amount of fuel and timing to be supplied to the engine.

While hunting for a suitable donor on a JY look for the following vehicles:

a) 87-92 C/K, burban. ECM should have service part number 1227747 (other service numbers will work as well). For 350 look for BCC ANLW, ANLZ, ASDZ or ASDU and for 305 AFDY or AJUK plus others. Either 305 or 350 will work, but if EFI system is closer to your engine displacement the better. Unless you have V6 or BBC.

b) 87-92 F-bodies - these are 305 TBI (LO3). Look for 1228746 ECM (other service numbers are possible. TPI swap is possible, but it is not for beginner!

c) 90-93 B-body Caprices/Road master/Rear drive Cadillac. I have seen 305 and 350 TBI engines (LO3/LO5). These are least desirable since distributor is specific to B-body. However the rest of the components are the same.

What to grab:
Everything!
1) ECM and plastic mounting bracket (located behind glove box in C/K trucks), ALDL connector mounted in cab (you'll have to cut wires, but leave about 12" of wires for splicing.)
2) Harness - spend the time to gently extract it without braking connectors or cutting wires! Expect to spend 1-1/2 to 2 hours for extraction. It is your foundation for a successful EFI transplant. Before starting removal examine the harness - look for anything that may look like repair or a hack. You do not want that. Dirty or oil soaked harness can be cleaned up with brake clean. Due to age some connectors plastic bodies may brake, but it is very easy to replace them.
3) Intake manifold and everything mounted on it - TB, CTS, ESC / MAP / EGR solenoid bracket, etc. See post #7 in this thread.
4) Distributor
5) CCP canister
6) Relays - you may want to grab some spares (look for front wheel drive Buick and cadies and grab both relay and sockets - allow ~12" for wire pig tails).

Do not grab knock sensor (KS) - these are not worth re-using and a new unit should be procured from parts store.

Did I forget anything????

side note:
My preference is to install full size dizzy (HEI). The EFI trucks use small size dizzy with external coil which is known to fail. To get around this I use HEI from early to mid 80's CCC carburetor equipped cars (F-bodies, B-bodies, vans, etc) as these units have four wire ECM connector. It is fully compatible with TBI EFI system, but connector plug needs to be retrofitted. More on this later.

//RF

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Are you running an auto tranny or a manual and which one?

A mid 80's G-body Oldsmobile Cutlass mechanical speedo with the optical VSS buffer is probably your best bet and the least expensive route to getting the VSS signal you need from an older transmission. The speedo head can be fit to an older face plate and then it can be recalibrated to match the face plate MPH range and sweep angle of your 65. The Olds speedo is the long rectangular configuration similar to your 65 so it will be closest to what you need.

It is possible to change the speedo gears in the transmission to change the range of the speedo from 85 mph to 120 mph by doing a little math. I did this with an 87 Cutlass I had and made an overlay for the speedo face to change the range from 85 mph to 120 mph.

If you have a round speedo then the mid 80's C/K speedo with the optical buffer VSS would work better. I am doing this with my 67 C-10.

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Oh yes forgot about O2 sensor.

If you have headers - run 3 or 4 wire heated sensor. If you have cast iron manifolds - grab exhaust manifolds from a donor (IFRC driver side where stock O2 is mounted). It cost $20 at muffler shop to install O2 bung. A single wire O2 works well in cast iron manifold, but will problematic with headers. I had equal success with BOSCH and Delco O2's, but Delco units are preferred since ECM close loop algorithm is optimized to match their response. BOSCH is a bit different, but still works.

Vehicle speed sensor (VSS) - there are numerous approaches (68TT that's a great tidbit!) as ECM needs this input.

P/N switch for automatic - this allows for idle compensation when shifting from park into gear and back.

Expect to run a new 3/8" fuel line from gas tank to feed TB. Use soft steel line to run fuel line. Yes, it is a bit more expensive and more work, but we are talking safety here. Use existing fuel line for fuel return if it is in good shape (we are talking about 45 year old line here). IFRC in '65 there were no Charcoal Canister Purge (CCP), but its addition keeps gas fumes from escaping your gas tank into atmosphere (and keeps eco Nazis happy).
More than likely you'll have to add fuel return and CCP (1/4") to your fuel sending - pickup module. Gas tank pickup module should have 3 outlets - TBI fuel supply (3/8"), TBI fuel return (3/8 or 5/16"), and purge (1/4"). An inline fuel pump is the easiest way to go. I use Carter P5001 and it has worked well for me for the past 3 years. There are numerous alternatives but keep in mind that you do not need supper high pressure pump - 20 to 30 PSI and about 50 GPH is adequate.


Now, back to the grind.

//RF

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Wow ok thanks for the info I have a motor going in. It is 87-92 350. I have a th350 trans but i plan to by a 4l60E for the fuel millage. As for the fuel lines i get a little lost on the lines and pickup moduel and such i need a pic. Thanks again for the help!

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

The E-trans will put you into another category entirely when it comes to VSS and the computer you can use to run the TBI system.

You will need the 94-95 vintage 16197427 PCM or one of its clones to run the transmission and the TBI system. You can use the older 16147060 PCM and a few others too but they are much less popular and not as well hacked as the 7427.

You will need either an electronic speedometer or an expensive conversion box or tail shaft housing retrofit. None of which are budget friendly in a 65.

I like the e-trans but in your case trying to keep on budget you are much better off using an earlier 4L60 / 700R4 transmission that already has the mechanical speedometer output and can be run on the much simpler and much easier to find 1227747 ECM.

You could do a stand alone PCM to run just the trans (like the diesel trans controller) and use the 7747 ECM for the TBI system but you would still have the electronic speedometer issue to deal with.

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

1) 4L60E transmission is an electronically controlled version of the 700R4 (4L60). 4L60E requires a powertrain control module (PCM) from a later (1993-1995) model TBI truck. PCM controls both engine and transmission as a unit which improves over earlier generation EFI systems.
To keep things simple I suggest that you stick with upgraded 700R4 which only has TCC, and top gear indicator (three wires that go the trany in 87-92 TBI motors).

2) Fuel tank plumbing parts can be found in post # 135, ?

3) Parts needed for a TBI swap can be seen in post # 172

//RF

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Yet again thanks for the info.

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

rfmaster what vss and fuel pump do you have, where can I buy them and the cost? thanks

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

1) Assuming that you are going with 1227747 ECM (found in 87-92 PU's) you'll need 2000 ppm VSS. I bought my VSS in 07 from JTR, http://www.jagsthatrun.com/

Part Number 2PRS. $75 includes shipping. There are other VSS vendors, but I have not tried them - thus I can not comment.

2) There are numerous fuel pumps that will work just fine for TBI conversion. For my conversions I used in-line, externally mounted fuel pump. I use Carter P5001 which can provide up to 20 PSI at TB inlet while flowing 50 GPH. Stock or near stock TBI systems do not need high pressure or excess volume fuel pumps as it leads to increased fuel temperature rise and excessive delivery pressure may cause FP regulation variances due to return fuel path restrictions. It is available from numerous online vendors for about $152 (summit, jegs, etc). The reason why I like this pump is that is self priming and does not have fuel pulsing found in lower priced pumps (Airtex, master, etc).

//RF

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

The info in here is amazing and tons of it. I joined because of this sticky.

My question is I have dual tanks from a 79 chevy and wonder what I can do to keep both tanks or if I need to straight plumb one and reserve fill from the other?

Also on the harness there are factory splices on some of the wires. When I cut down the harness do I need to remover or retain the factory splices?

Thanks for all the info.

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

You can keep both tanks but you'll have to do a bit of fuel system plumbing. In my case I built a surge tank (~ 1quart) which is fed by low pressure lift pump. The LP pump can selectively be fed from either tank trough 2-way fuel selector valve (aka UN-50 Polack). Excess (overflow) fuel is fed back into sourced tank through another 2-way valve. Newer, 6 port Polack selector valves can handle up to 60 psi, so in tank fuel pumps can be used instead. You'll need gas tanks with baffles and in tank fuel pumps from 87+ truck. But it makes for a very clean installation, but keep in mind that 73-81 Pickups 20 Gal used SMALL FILLER PIPE = 1 1/4" I.D. (Mfg: Spectra Premium; Mfg Part Num:GM1A; Hollander# HOL# 197-982) and later 87-91 20 Gal used LARGE FILLER PIPE = 1 5/8" I.D. for EFI, with baffle (Mfg: Spectra Premium; Mfg Part Num:GM1C; Holander Hol #197-1417)



This is my as build dual tank system, but it can be simplified if you have 6-port valve.

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/d...em20070129.gif

Surge tank
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/d...t/Photo101.jpg

Fuel selector and low pressure lift pump
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/d...106-crop-1.jpg


On the splices - those are probably are ground - post photos of the splices to be sure.

//RF

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Or you can get lucky and find an 87 TBI dual tank truck at the wrecking yard like I did and grab all the stock plumbing and switching valve parts off of it to do the conversion job.

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

I swapped in a 88 FI454 into my Jeep/buggy.It runs fine.But it won't start on it's own.I need to dump a touch of gas in the tbi then it fires and runs.What could be the problem?I kept the stock engine harness mixed with a universal harness for the rest.

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Dang, that looks complicated. My '79 has a single-wire, 6 port valve. It is carbed, but it has the factory return line setup. My plan was to relocate the valve lower on the frame and mount an electric pump after the valve, and reuse the factory return that passes through the valve. Do you see a problem with doing it that way?

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

You need to verify POST functionality - ignition key from off into run position, but do not attempt to crank engine over. You should see SES light go from solid on blink off back to on. Meanwhile fuel pump must come on for about 2 seconds and shut off. If the pump does not come during this check the likely culprit is a bad fuel pump relay, wiring between ECM (Pin A1 dark green/white) and Fuel pump relay coil circuit, or possibly blown driver transistor that provides + 12V to energize FP coil. The black/white wire in the FP relay socket must be grounded. Otherwise coil will never be energized.

When you pour a little bit of gas into TB engine fires and oil pressure switch NO contacts close once oil pressure is in excess of 6 PSI thus providing power to the fuel pump.

Check and see if there +12 volts supplied by ECM to FP relay coil circuit when engine is running (the aforementioned A1 dark green-wht wire) .

//RF

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

That should work - but keep in mind that fuel slash during braking or acceleration may uncover fuel sock casing FP to suck in some air.

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

I have the Fuel pump on a switched relay not the factory one.I do have the factory one under the hood.And hook up to the comp.

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Yes, fuel slosh is a concern with these tanks. I think if I don't let them get below 1/4 tank it should be OK. I try never to let them get that low anyway.

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Where does the tan/white wire connected to the oil pressure switch suppose to go?

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

This is a great thread dedicated to the tBi system.

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

If you have a three wire oil pressure switch connector then in general (depending on the model year of vehicle that harness was sourced from) pinout is:

Orange - Battery
tan/white (or gray) - Fuel pump
brown - oil pressure light (depends on the oil pressure switch part #)

The first two wires are usually larger gauge wire (for current capacity)

//RF

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Cool thanks!Probably not my last question on here though.LOL

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Gents

This thread has been a bit quiet for a while. Meanwhile I have been working in my garage on 383TBI with a few surprises. As with any other project there were several setbacks...


Well, after almost a year of building I have fired my 383TBI (Fuel injected) on the engine test stand. Several issues stood in my way before it was fired:
1) distributor was 360 out (wrong TDC) (dahhhh!)
2) couple loose wires
3) leaky radiator (found out too late).
4) leaky oil pressure gauge (need a better way to plumb an oil pressure line).

I shot this video on Sunday after resolving all, but radiator issues.

sooooo - what's next?

Radiator
IAC wiring needs to be addressed (simple pin swap)
adjusting fuel pressure on a VAFPR
fuel maps (VE tables)

//Alex

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

RF,
Awesome work on this new project! Wow you really went all out on this one! Nice stand and control panel too! What is the plan for this power plant? Sorry you found a leaky radiator.

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Hey Mike

Yes, thank you very much - I started about a year ago on this engine build when I pulled vortec 350 from JY. Originally, I was planning to drop rebuilt 350 vortec into my 75 C20, but after checking heads for cracks (actually two sets of 906 vortec heads that I had - four out four were cracked) this project morphed. So, around Thanksgiving last year I went all out for high performance stump pulling 383 build, naturally fuel injected (TBI). Based on the build sheet this powerplant (with a proper tune) should be capable of about 360 to 380HP and 400+ ft-lb of torque. Just on cam specs torque on this engine will be flat from 2000 to 4500 RPM (around 400+ ft-lb). It is an ideal power plant for lighter truck (fun) or serious tow rig. Super 23 Trick Flow 180 can support more HP, but that's not what I was looking for. My office mates (gear heads naturally ) are teasing me right now when I am going to get a classic ride (60's Camaro or Chevele) to drop this into. First - I have to coordinate this acquisition activity with the kitchen queen, which is not going to be easy. But time will take care of that - hopefully.

Engine test stand - since I do not have a MIG/TIG welder I end up building it using 30x 36" 3/4" plywood with diamond plate. 2x 2x8 and 1x 2x6 along with 3x cross bolted (1/2" bolts) uni-strats provide sturdy platform. 4" wheels allow for easy movement in my garage. 4x cut to length uni-strats provide vertical support. The whole idea for this engine stand that at the end of the project it can be fully disassembled into smaller parts for storage. Control panel - used a peace of scrapped 16 gauge of sheet AL - drilled, punched all holes followed by a trip to a brake to shape into final shape. Masking tape makes labeling a breeze.

Meanwhile - immediate tasks.
1) new radiator for engine test stand should be arriving shortly (another $100 I did not want to spend!) Found out that plastic tank - AL core radiators can not be repaired.
2) Have to swap pins on IAC connector - BBC throttle bodies use unique IAC motor and its wiring is slightly different from SBC.
3) Fix leaky oil pressure gauge. It is insane, but why mfg ship oil pressure gauges with crappy fittings and lines is beyond me.
4) Start tuning with EBL

//RF

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Hey guys,

I know it has been said a hundred times, but this is a great thread. Thanks sooo much to the experts. You guys should get paid for this.:metal:

I am doing a conversion on my 75 K5 blazer right now. Every question I have had has been answered earlier except this one.

My donor vehicle is a heavy duty 89 pickup (5.7) with an 8747 ECM. Oh, and YES, it DOES have a knock sensor! Go figure... No prob.

I have an extra wire on my ALDL connector that I cant identify. It is solid brown and on pin C. In the donor, it went up into the under dash harness. Who knows where it went after that. Cant find it on any diagrams.

Any idea?

Thanks again

Keith

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Sounds like a great project. What are the cam specs in the 383?

I am just about ready to get the 408 from my Malibu dropped into my 67 K10. Maybe this weekend. Once I get the bugs worked out of the truck I will be converting it to TBI. I think the lumpy cam will be a bear to tune but I am going to give it a try. I really like the way the engine runs and sounds but if I have to swap out the cam for something more computer friendly I will.

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Awesome work indeed. Hard to imagine building a stand that nice without the use of a welder.

That's interesting I have had several fixed in the past, they just straightened the tabs out and changed the plastic tank. Usually around $50. They almost always crack on the dirver side first. This is a result of short drives where the truck doesn't have time fully get up to temp. and the driver side takes all the heating and cooling cycles. Cracks first every time. Good luck with that.

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

The radiator - fan assembly was scored from junked Acura Legend. These cars are plentiful (JY) here in So Cal and replacement parts for JA cars tend to be dirt cheap (most are Chinese copies or Taiwan for a better quality ;) ). The two rad shops that I've visited basically told me flat out that they do not touch plastic tank/AL core based radiators - new replacements are dirt cheap and there are fewer returns vs. repaired. My rad had a bad core - according to tech at one fine establishment it rotted out from inside out.

//RF

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

TT

Yep, you know it all too well that stock ECM calibration will not handle large overlap, tight LSA bottom of the page camshaft. For my 383 build, since I have OE roller block (880 vortec from '97), I went with Comp Cam 08-304-8

Specs:
Duration at 0.050 210/220
Valve Lift 1.5:1 .500/.510
LSA (deg) 112deg

This cam might be a bit on a smaller side than some other cams, but I am after mild manors and really did not want to spend countless hours tuning it (been there - done that). Even with EBL and WBO wild cams can be a bear to tame.

//RF

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

ALDL Pin C goes to AIR diverter enable solenoid. In you case you can trim and forget it unless required by local regulations. Pin C allows to monitor functionality of the AIR diverter.

As for 8747 ECM - I have only seen one flavor - without KS. It is also possible that some one swapped 8747 into 7747 equipped truck. 8747 ECM will work - it will simply ignores ESC module input. Otherwise, the two ECM's share identical I/O. In the past I found 8747 in HD 3/4 and 1 ton trucks and vans as well as specially modified chassis. In other words - who knows...

//RF

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Does anyone know where I can get a copy of the wiring diagram for this TBI setup. I have looked all over through my emails and I can't seem to find the one I had. My donor is 1992 5.7 from a Buick Roadmaster car. Thanks
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...uck/buick5.jpg

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Thanks RF.

I assumed ALDL pin C was something like that, but I wanted to be sure. I dont need it.

The donor WAS a 1ton pickup. And the KS wire was uncut and connected to a KS module in the block. All wiring looked original to the truck. It did have an AC Delco replacement ECM, but the AC Delco PN clearly ties to an 8747. (Dont have the number in front of me.)

Now that I think of it, most of the wiring colors matched the 7747 scheme. In the diagrams I found there were a few color differences, like grey vs tan/wht.

I think you are right. This was a 7747 1 ton truck. The original ECM went bad, so without comparing the numbers someone dropped in what is normally on these trucks, an 8747.

I have a 7747 from a burb hanging around, think I will use that one instead.

Thanks for the help!

Keith

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Auto Zones web site has quite a few you can download in the vehicle repair guide section once you enter a vehicle.

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

thanks 68 for the tip,
unfortunately, AZ doesn't have one for this model.

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Put in a 92 Caprice with the 5.7 TBI. I just did and they are there on the AZ site.

It will probably be the same ECM and engine wiring as the Buick. Should be close enough to get the job done.