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Re: Suburban A/C fix + Vintage Air?
Anyone have a picture of the underside of a Suburban? I'm trying to figure out where these hard lines route!
https://photos.smugmug.com/VehiclesO...IMG_7394-M.jpg |
Re: Suburban A/C fix + Vintage Air?
And then I cracked a cold one...
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Re: Suburban A/C fix + Vintage Air?
Looks like you have a compressor cycling thermal cutoff switch with a capillary tube in the Evaporator. There should be a Low pressure cutoff switch on the accumulator as well. The aftermarket compressor and or hoses likely has provision for a high pressure cutout switch. If you're running R134a you'll want to add a HPCO switch in series with the LPCO and thermal switches because it has a tendency to run much higher pressures than R12 or HC blends.
I'd use a relay to offload the control amperage to the actual compressor clutch so the high amp load of engaging the electromagnet is run through an easy to replace $1.25 relay rather than the HVAC controls and the LPCO and Thermal switches. Get a relay socket rather than using 1/4" disconnects. It makes the wiring job look better and it's much easier to replace the relay when and if it needs to be done. Run a ground in series through the LPCO, HPCO, and Thermal switch to terminal 85 of a Mini ISO Bosch Automotive relay. Run the Green AC compressor "on" wire from the HVAC control panel to terminal 86 of the same relay. Run a 14ga wire through a 16ga fusible link or a 20A ATC fuse from the J stud on the firewall to the relay common terminal 30. Run a 14ga wire from relay terminal 87 (normally open) to the actual compressor clutch plug. |
Re: Suburban A/C fix + Vintage Air?
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What unit did you go with for the rear? |
Re: Suburban A/C fix + Vintage Air?
Here’s what I learned/tl;dr, which is going to sound obvious, and phillipm was totally right:
Spent half the day on the phone and doing some research. I called Restomod Air (condenser) and Vintage Air (compressor), and ended up with “Classic Auto Air”(recommended by Restomod Air) which seems to be the best suited to getting your stock stuff working again. Taking @phillipm advice, I’m going to upsize the Condenser, plus get parallel flow. I verified that the stock size of the Suburban's (’76) condenser is: Depth: 7/8”“Classic Auto Air” suggested the 16x27” CondenserNotice how the OEM has M/F in/out? This is the issue with trying to piece things together and mix and match parts. I was hoping I could order hoses, and just bolt this thing together, but that was a bit of a pipe dream. The good news is that “Classic Auto Air” has all the fittings and the guy assured me that we can just create custom lines where needed (under the hood). He said he’s familiar with the stock components, so putting together a list of parts should be easy. The compressor piece of this had me pulling out my hair. I don’t know why it’s so hard to find details/specs on the different models. First I emailed Sanden and asked for a recommendation. I was glad to get response, which said essentially: the SD7B10 is probably too small, and he suggested a SD7H15, but said they have over 1,000 models and told me to call one of the distributors. So I called Vintage Air, who also were cool and answered my questions. Josh took the time to look up numbers and parts and suggested 04709-vma (5.5 CI w/V-belt) (this is actually 7 groove belt and won’t work, but the size seemed good). http://www.sanden.com/productlibrary...uide_Rev_2.pdf For Sanden, you can break down the model like this SD7B10: SD (wobble plate type)So then the SD7H15 is 150cc (9.3 Cubic Inches) Mike at “Classic Auto Air” confirmed what was recommended on this thread, but he said “stay away from 7176” because it would be too small. Yep, its the SD7B10 (that I already bought). Sigh. They can put the whole thing together, bracket, compressor, condenser, accumulator, lines, and fittings. Everything but a new drive belt, it seems. So that’s likely what I’m going to do. I also researched the Denso compressors and confirmed that the 10S20F is used on 2008 (my LS engine year, I think) suburbans with rear air. So, breaking this one down, it’s a 10 Piston, 200cc unit. But I think it uses the ’stock manifold’. Mike had some opinions on what compressor he would recommend (Sanden 514) I think… but that’s a bit small sounding (on paper) The Burb used an orifice tube in front (’76) and a Thermal Expansion Valve in the rear unit. See pics above for replacing the TXV. So, it looks like I'm not getting AC for the 4th of July break after all! |
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By the way the Denso compressors can be replaced from the factory manifold to some regular O-Ring fittings. Check out coldhose.com or Vintage Air for those. |
Re: Suburban A/C fix + Vintage Air?
It's hard to believe that TWO YEARS have gone by since I started this project, but we all know that can happen.
Seems that about every spring I start getting the AC itch. The good news is that I just put in my order for all the parts at "Original Air". I bought before I did my research and am going to sell some of the stuff I got originally. Live and learn. This time I called the guy from OA and he helped me piece together a kit. He suggested running all new hoses to the rear. Will the Covid thing, they are shipping slowly, but I should be getting something in a couple of weeks. I think the "install" part should go fast. And "getting it working" might be a different challenge! I'll need a crimper, and a way to figure out how to trigger the electric fans with the AC comes on. I'm running an MSD LS box... I wanted to thank everyone who posted here, it really helped me get my head around this project so far. I'm still an AC noob. That's about to change right quick though. |
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Re: Suburban A/C fix + Vintage Air?
Just read this entire epic endeavor. Props to you for sticking with it. I’m soon to be an owner of a ‘75 Burb with rear ac (not currently working) so I’m preparing for the inevitable. Seeing that you’re local to me, I figured I’d check in here. Aside from the AC, do you have any pics or a build thread for your Burb? Sounds pretty badass!
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Here are pics of this one: https://swissarmychainsaw.smugmug.co...Owned/Suburban |
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Re: Suburban A/C fix + Vintage Air?
My parts are coming in about a week and there are some open items
1. Need a Crimping tool [edit: AC lines ] 2. Vacuum Pump and gauges 3. How much Refrigerant is needed in this system? 4. Need to be able to trigger fan: off/low/high on rear AC unit 5. Need to verify that my rig can trigger the AC to come on (not sure how that even works) Any recommendations on any of these? |
Re: Suburban A/C fix + Vintage Air?
Electrical or AC lines?
For AC lines the Mastercool 71550. For electrical terminals Delphi 12085270 and Delphi 12085271 |
Re: Suburban A/C fix + Vintage Air?
Subbed in this one. I don't have a Burb but I am sure interested,
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Re: Suburban A/C fix + Vintage Air?
I bought some stuff:
Vacuum pump and manifold gauges. *Why I bought this one: Price, reviews and pretty blue case!* https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....bL._SY180_.jpg https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Orifice Tube tool: *Why I bought?* Orifice tube and expansion valve (install explained) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxHBD73VKfQ https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....gL._SY180_.jpg https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 AC Crimper Tool *Why I bought this one: I was going to get the non- hydraulic (more reliable version) but I realized that you can't use that type easily when the hoses are on the car. So I went with this one (ratings, and number of dies in the kit).* https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....DL._SY180_.jpg https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Thermometer(s) https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....kL._SY180_.jpg https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Refrigerant Tap: Why? One of the reviews I read on the Manifold said this was the one that worked for him. https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....EL._SY180_.jpg https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 I have a trip planned for *June 19th*, so that is my "get er done" drop dead date. So I'll keep posting as this progresses. Expecting some parts soon... |
Re: Suburban A/C fix + Vintage Air?
Oh man! You are going to be an AC king! I did a whole system in a Toyota (wife's car) compressor, evaporator, condenser, etc. It was so cold that my wife wanted a setting lower than low. I told her that setting was "OFF".
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Re: Suburban A/C fix + Vintage Air?
Let us know how the Mastercool Hydracrimp knockoff works.
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Re: Suburban A/C fix + Vintage Air?
I see some goodies! Warm fuzzies yet? I just got my Sanden in the mail. I am about to get going on mine. I also bought the Mastercool but I got the Manual one. I have two AC's to do. Good luck!
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Re: Suburban A/C fix + Vintage Air?
I was not expecting this until Monday, and I made some weekend commitments that will prevent me from tearing into this straight away.
Stay tuned though! Oil Capacity & Refrigerant https://photos.smugmug.com/VehiclesO...IMG_9543-M.jpg I emailed the AC supplier Mike O. from Classic Auto Air in FLA, and he called me back. So far this guy has been a huge help on this project. It's pretty custom and not many suppliers will help with piecing a system together. I'm very grateful. Here are notes from my call with him. Oil Using the chart above the dual air system uses 3 ounces more than a single system. He said that the compressor comes with all of the oil needed for it to run properly; however, since it's a dual system adding an extra 3 ounces of oil is probably a smart move. The explanation for this was the evaporator in the rear does not travel any oil and in front it is a plate and fin design which can trap some oil. The accumulator collects some oil in meters it somewhat. Conclusion: add 3 ounces of oil to this system with a new compressor that is already full of all oil. Refrigerant Charge Typically when converting to 134a you use 70 to 80% of the original charge amount. (as a reference) However in practical application he said to add 2 pounds into the system and run front and rear on high full blast for 30 to 45 minutes and measure the temperature, front and rear. After seeing what the lowest temp. you can achieve is, add 1 ounce of refrigerant and wait 5 to 10 minutes to see if your temperature drops more. Repeat this process until the temperature no longer drops. And you're done. Record amount of refrigerant for future servicing (because no one will know how much to put in) Note that this uses a parallel flow vs. stock will impact how much refrigerant to use. Other things When charging and testing the system just let it idle, driving it is not recommended. Lube o-rings with Oil before install (comes with oil) Attache fittings by Tighten them by hand and then with two wrenches tighten them 1/2 to 3/4 turn more. Don't over tighten, it will pooch your o-rings. |
Re: Suburban A/C fix + Vintage Air?
https://photos.smugmug.com/VehiclesO...IMG_9557-S.jpg
This thing is huge... https://photos.smugmug.com/VehiclesO...IMG_9564-M.jpg So I'm officially one beer into this project and realize I need more fittings. https://photos.smugmug.com/VehiclesO....43%20PM-M.png |
Re: Suburban A/C fix + Vintage Air?
There are several lines I got from the parts truck I wanted to use (these are hard/rubber lines).
Here is a video on how to "repair" AC lines, which means you replace the rubber part with new rubber and braze on new fittings. This seems like the way to go if you have the parts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIyY9FJXiis |
Re: Suburban A/C fix + Vintage Air?
So, I'm trying to move from an intimidating pile of parts to something that resembles an air conditioning system.
Thankfully I had my 11 year old help me sort some things out. The main thing was to lay everything out and see what connects to what and if we had all the connections we needed. When it's all in a pile it does not make much sense, so "test fitting" everything was a good use of time. https://photos.smugmug.com/VehiclesO...IMG_9570-M.jpg This will be the hose routing for the rear unit. https://photos.smugmug.com/VehiclesO...IMG_9572-M.jpg And here is my high tech drawing of how the components go together. Red: -8AN fittings / hose Blue: -10AN fittings/ 13/32 hose Green: -6AN Both service ports will be at the compressor fittings. https://photos.smugmug.com/VehiclesO...IMG_9575-M.jpg |
Re: Suburban A/C fix + Vintage Air?
BTW if anyone has a truck that has AC, can you tell me what color wire goes to the compressor, and then where it goes?
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Re: Suburban A/C fix + Vintage Air?
Compressor clutch is green.
It runs from the HVAC panel through the LPCO switch and then to the compressor. |
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Is a simple test light enough to test if that is working? I got the compressor bracket painted up yesterday. https://photos.smugmug.com/VehiclesO...IMG_9576-M.jpg https://photos.smugmug.com/VehiclesO...IMG_9577-M.jpg Finally a good reason to try this stuff out: Steel-It https://photos.smugmug.com/VehiclesO...IMG_9579-M.jpg |
Re: Suburban A/C fix + Vintage Air?
That looks like some wicked paint. Where do you get that?
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Amazon! And YES it's shockingly expensive. I bought some a while back just to try it, and have not had a good occasion until now. There are also some good youtube reviews of this stuff (rust resistance) https://www.amazon.com/Steel-it-Poly.../dp/B06Y49G41W |
Re: Suburban A/C fix + Vintage Air?
Two things I need sorted out that I'll take opinions on.
1. Need to trigger the electric fan(s) when the compressor kicks on. (This is a carbed LS motor with MSD box - how the fan gets triggered) How should I do that? Edit: The answer is a Trinary Switch https://youtu.be/l604JCZx_ow 2. The Rear blower needs a switch and power run to it. Thoughts? I have heard that with rear units, you want to run the fan anytime the AC is on to prevent icing. Can I trigger it from the front fan unit? Via a relay maybe? that way when I put the fan on, and the AC is on, the rear unit also gets power? Just making my to-do list, and the above are still in the "idea" phase. It's going to be hot today, but the show must go on! |
Re: Suburban A/C fix + Vintage Air?
I'm trying to install the condenser. The "kit" is a bit of a joke, so I'll have to fab up some kind of bracket.
All the stock mounting stuff is gone. Two questions: 1. Does the lager port of the Condenser (8AN) have to go on top, or does it matter? Edit for future generations: Large port on top! 2. Which side of the radiator? Does it matter if it goes on the grill side or the fan side of the Radiator? Edit for future generations: It seems that ALL of them are on the fresh air side! Stock one goes on the grill side, but the hoses do a better job of passing through the core support than my big rubber lines will. It might be easier to just put it on the fan side. I never considered that until I just saw a pic of someone doing that on the internet! |
Re: Suburban A/C fix + Vintage Air?
Next up is the Condenser. The trans cooler is in the way, and let's just say the mount is "home made" (plumbers tape anyone?)
https://photos.smugmug.com/VehiclesO...IMG_9585-M.jpg https://photos.smugmug.com/VehiclesO...IMG_9586-M.jpg Test fitting the 8AN hose. If I had more time I'd just do hard lines from the condenser and through the firewall. Vintage air make some "U-Bend-Em" that might work for this. https://photos.smugmug.com/VehiclesO...IMG_9587-M.jpg Here is the mount provide by "Classic Auto Air", it looks pretty good with the Steel-It paint. At first I thought the mount was very plain looking. https://photos.smugmug.com/VehiclesO...IMG_9598-M.jpg And of course, once installed you hardly see it. https://photos.smugmug.com/VehiclesO...IMG_9599-M.jpg Compressor install was a piece of cake, really. The kit even included a new belt which is one less thing to have to measure, and track down. Next up is sorting out the wiring... and hoses. https://photos.smugmug.com/VehiclesO...IMG_9601-M.jpg Found this on 73-87chevytrucks.com (they have a forum for AC it seems) https://photos.smugmug.com/VehiclesO...g_square-M.gif |
Re: Suburban A/C fix + Vintage Air?
You can find the whole GM wiring diagram book for your truck in my manuals post in my signature.
I gave Chris copies of my scans for that board. |
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I found this wire tucked away for safe keeping.
Is this the connector for the Compressor? If so, that good news! Can anyone confirm? Ya'll bein' real quiet! https://photos.smugmug.com/VehiclesO...IMG_9605-M.jpg |
Re: Suburban A/C fix + Vintage Air?
That looks like the connector used on some of the Harrison Frigidaire A6 and R4 compressors.
The wire colors are correct for that. IIRC it's Packard 56 terminals inside a special connector shell. When I convert over to the Sanden style compressor I run the ground through the High Pressure Cutout Switch and leave the LPCO in the hot as originally wired. You can run the HPCO in series with the LPCO but it's easier to put it in the ground side. |
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I just reached out to the supplier of my parts: The modern compressor do not have any switches in them, so it is recommended to install one. Here is a link to a very easy to install switch kit. https://www.originalair.com/ac-high-...tch-kit-o-ring In your situation, it would need to be attached to the lower fitting of the condenser (#6) and then attach the hose directly to that. Just ordered this, but I don't think it will get here in time for my vacation plans! |
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You could get a crimp in pressure switch fitting and install in the hose right off the compressor head. The compressor head fittings, be it a Sanden or one of the Harrison units, can be acquired with an HPCO threaded switch fitting... and even both LPCO & HPCO threaded switch fittings. |
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https://www.summitracing.com/parts/vta-24678-vus So is the Low pressure switch a "binary" and the high pressure "trinary"? Edit: Found this on "trinary switch" -- If you need to trigger an electric fan, use one! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l604JCZx_ow |
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