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I've relied on felpro
I see OS 5153 C fits 235 and 261 so it is probably not hard to get My engineer father always used permatex red brush on gasket sealer with cork gaskets and I always did the same. If you do both sides the gasket becomes single use. I'd check for any pan bolt holes with deformed edges as dsraven described I notice felpro has a video on gasket sealers, didn't watch it though |
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the only 261 I ever had was from a Canadian Pontiac and had no oil filter. Same as low option 235 powered cars got.
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No I think you are right, I googled it and the truck 261 had spin on full flow filter according to a couple results.
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here is a really handy tool for doing oil pan gaskets. screw them into the block, slip the gasket over them and it hangs there ready (or sticks to the aviation form a gasket) and then the oil pan snaps over top of them and hanges there until you are ready to push it up on the pins, which aligns the pan to the block. I have several of different sizes.
https://www.amazon.ca/Fel-Pro-ES-728...65cfd151f0873a |
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permatex aviation form a gasket - that is the stuff! All I remembered was the brand name
I'm going to get a bottle just for old times sake! |
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it used to be sold in a toothpaste style tube too but it is way thicker. the canned stuff has a brush inside the can lid so thats nice. the tubed stuff can be spread around with a cheap acid brush or similar. it is very difficult to get off so wear gloves.
https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/p...w.ds#store=611 another good one that I use on metal to metal housing seals https://www.google.com/shopping/prod...547969129,cs:1 another gasket glue style that works good to hold the gasket in place but doesn't really help the sealing effect in my opinion https://jbspowercentre.com/products/...tXIzq_M8Eh5BZw and, of course, the silicone style one. this is the only one I use for silicone when needed. buy a small tube because it goes hard in the container quickly once opened. I have used the pressurized can style before as well, but same deal. it goes bad quick https://www.amazon.ca/Permatex%C2%AE...4cf87199b&th=1 don't think of your leak repair as a dreaded thing, just start and keep plugging along, soon you wll have it all figured out and if it has to come apart then just start the repair and take it a step at a time. soon you will be done and waiting for the sealer to dry so you can start it up again. i was gonna suggest to ask around if anybody you know has a snake camera that you could borrow but I was beat out, lol. oh, and post your progress pics. |
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Amazon should deliver the dye tomorrow, but they've been running late in the day due to so much holiday shopping. I'm guessing that I will input the dye on Wednesday morning, use the bore scope to confirm our collective opinion that its coming from those two lower timing cover bolts. I suspect that most of Wednesday will be spent disassembling everything I need to remove to get to the timing cover. Based on my last attempt at removing the oil pan, that may be a Thursday task. Funny, while I've been dreading starting this project, now I'm itching to get started (and done). Photos for sure as the work progresses. |
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I'm glad to hear you are onboard with taking it apart and doing a proper repair rather than trying to goop it up with something. it will give you peace of mind and also add to the integrity of the truck if repairs are done properly. besides, you know you wanna, lol.
for cleaning the shop floor I use xsorb universal absorbent. it is what we used on our firetrucks to quickly pick up fluids from motor vehicle accidents. it is pretty fine so if you use it have the big garage doors closed because wind can stir it up and blow it everywhere. I keep it in a small bucket with a lid and have a scoop inside so its ready to go if I have an unexpected leak. |
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when you pull the pan it is a good idea to drain the oil and let it sit overnight with the plug out so it can drip out as much as possible before the pan is removed. I usually try to put a big piece of cardboard under the unit when the pan is off just to absorb the rest of the drips. an old fridge box or a big tv box works well. tape the edges to the floor so you dont trip on them.
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Florescent dye went into the engine today. Tomorrow I'll run the engine and get the oil circulating (and dripping out). Then the black light, followed by disassembly and uncontrollable crying......just kidding. About the crying that is...LOL
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When you go out in the shop to fix it, drop something on your toe. Then the work ahead wont be on your mind so much. Lol.
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Phase 1 - Started today, while no tears were shed, plenty of bad words were applied to the task.
Here is the before picture - Attachment 2321895 After removing the supercharger, alternator, outer fender, inner fender, AC compressor, radiator and upper and lower hose, and disconnecting the AC condenser, I was able to work on the timing cover. It took a bit of elbow grease (and mineral spirits) to get the timing cover and all gasket/RTV residue off the block. As mentioned earlier in this thread, the squirter looks to be ok. Here is the after picture - Attachment 2321896 Attachment 2321897 The oil is now draining from the oil pan and I will leave it overnight. Tomorrow (Phase 2) I will deal with removing the oil pan. One question has arisen after removing the timing cover. The crank shaft measures 1 1/4 inches in diameter, not counting the key way. The seal that was on the timing cover was larger than the crank shaft and it measures an opening of 1 11/16 inches. Is the larger opening on the seal in order to get it over the key way? Thanks. |
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you mean like this?
Attachment 2321898 The seal runs on the crank pulley that goes over the crank snout? |
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I figured you must be when I saw that you posted a picture that include an oil stain on your floor. Standards have slipped!
still jealous of your shop |
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hahaha, I smiled when I seen the oil spot too. I figured you would have it under control though.
are you planning to pull the steel plate off and regasket behind it so it will be a once and done repair? gotta pull the cam or at least the cam gear to do that I think. |
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Once I get the engine lifted an inch to peer underneath and get the oil pan off, I'll decide how far the remedial repairs needs to go. |
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I just asked because I dont think the cam gear is one that comes off easy or goes back on easy. it is what it is though, if it needs to come off or out then doing something else is a bandaid, they usually don't last.
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That entire task is enough to send me to the ER for a nervous breakdown. I want to see precisely where the oil leak is coming from. Getting the oil pan off and getting the engine block raise up an inch on the front mount will tell me how far this repair has to go. I won't be taking the cam shaft just for the heck of it. This engine was completely overhauled a dozen years ago, but not operated until I got it running. Hopefully, I can spot the source of the elak without going to all that trouble. |
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here is a link to show how the cam gear is installed without damage to the gear.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...R0J9GHSOS56iz4 here is a link to a thread that talks about the gear removal and replacement while in the vehicle. https://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/s...hp?tid/180710/ i wondered if you could cut the old gear off while in the engine and then remove the steel plate, do the bolt repair etc and when ready get a new cam gear and do the 475 degree heat trick to get it back on. of course the threaded camshaft trick could be used to suck the new gear gear on fully with a series of washers and a nut on a threaded stud in the end of the cam. cooling the cam with ice or co2 first, heating the new gear, and being fast with the install before the gear cools off may be easier than taking the engine apart. if you read the second link through it talks about dealerships using a prybar on the cam lobe for the fuel pump while they install the gear with a hammer. I don't recommend that trick. lol. the threaded stud in the end of the cam, a hot gear and a cold cam may just do the trick though. be careful with the thrust plate and spacer back there though, it shows them in the video in the first link. |
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if the cam were drilled and tapped for a good quality threaded stud to be screwed in, a guy could use a couple of large greased up washers (larger in diameter than the hole in the middle of the cam gear), so they slip on one another like a thrust bearing, and a good quality nut to bear down against the cam gear and then when the hot gear is installed on the cold camshaft an impact gun could be used on the nut to help ensure the gear is all the way home. use some thick grease to retain the spacer ring. I think the gear bottoms against the ring that is between the gear and the cam, its been a long time since I was inside a 216 or a 235 so don't take my word for it but it seems logical that the ring back there is slightly thicker than the thrust plate is so that a clearance could be maintained when installing the new gear up tight against the ring. getting the old gear off, the way where you destroy the old gear, may not be as hard as you think because the gear is likely hard so it could be convinced to split possibly. if a stress line were ground in the gear face from the keyway to the outside and a makeshift nut cracker were made you could possibly get it to crack from the outside to the keyway fairly easily. then removal would be way easier. of course you could always try heating it up fast as well, like with a good sized torch, while a puller is used to supply some force to help it want to move
just a thought. the other thought I had was to get the old cam off, whether you cut it off or cut partway through and somehow break the rest off, but anyway, get the old gear off without breaking the thrust plate. the thrust plate is likely quite brittle so be careful. then drill and thread the cam to the same thread as a power steering pump pulley removal/install tool. then use the power steering pulley tool to assist with the preheated cam gear install. make sure you have help and everything set up first before you start heating the cam gear. just a thought that may or may not work for you. trying to figure a quick and painless way to get that steel plate off without taking the valvetrain out. what I have used for the lifters at times, should it come down to pulling the cam, is some good old fashioned wooden clothes pins. push the lifter up and slip the clothes pin over the stub that the pushrod connects to. use the old fashioned ones with the little spring on them not the more modern plastic ones. get good quality ones that aren't gonna snap in pieces due to the wood being from a poor source and try for the larger ones if available. otherwise, push them up, clean with brake cleaner, dry and duct tape from the top side. this is usually a very short term hold as usually some oil gets in the adhesive from somewhere and soon it lets go. then when you take the tape off clean the lifter so there is no adhesive on it anywhere. another thought may be to push the lifter up and install a short length of tight fitting hose over the lifter and keep it in place with a cable tie tightened on the hose from what I have read during my quick search on 216 cam gears the reason some of the timing gears were replaced is because the oil passage that feeds the squirter for lubing the gears gets plugged up so no oil reaches the squirter. another tip i learned is that the aluminum cam gear makes for some extra noise when running. the reason why they still sell fiber gears i guess. anyway, keep us posted with how it all goes and, of course, we will be needing pics. we're a needy bunch |
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https://vccachat.org/ubbthreads.php/...pe/thread.html
one more for you to read instead of actually working, lol. this one talks about "old timers" (thats kinda like cussing to some of us) who heated the gear to help get it off |
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For those of you following at home, this is Phase 2 of my project to find and fix the leak.
This morning, the first thing I did was to jack the engine up about an inch off the front motor mount. This was a good thing for more than one reason. I found out that one of the motor mount bolts (carriage bolt head seen in previous photos) was cross threaded. So both of these bolts will be replaced. I wonder if my local, old fashioned, hardware store where I can buy one bolt at a time, sells a Grade 8 carriage bolt, instead of just the normal carriage bolt? Here is a photo of the engine lifted up an inch. Attachment 2322054 The next step was to let the engine back down into position and begin removing the oil pan. At one point, I was convinced that the previous owner had welded it to the block it was on so tight. The front edge of the pan was coated in gasket sealant. I also know from past experience that mineral spirits while safe for both paint and epoxyed shop floor, will dissolve gasket sealer fairly easy. Using a spritz of mineral spirits on the starter side of the engine )better access than the header/exhaust side) I used a putty knife to go between the block and the cork gasket and was able to get that side freed up. With a little more fussing, I had the oil pan on the floor. See pic below Attachment 2322055 For all photo addicted users, here is a pic of the bottom end of the engine. Attachment 2322056 HOWEVER, I have discovered an issue that I likely caused when I installed the larger bolts to hold the timing cover. As you can guess, I'm sick about it and not sure what to do next. Attachment 2322057 Can I even find this part? If so can I replace it in place or is the engine coming out? UGH |
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Sorry to say that is a front main engine bearing cap. They are machines to fit the block and then they all get torqued up and then the bores of all of them are lined bored so they are all straight inline etc. Needless to say that they are not generically fitted so you wanna mark it and remove it and see if it is fixable without finding another one and then having the engine line bored again. To do that the bearing caps are removed, cut down on the flat machined side, installed and torqued and the align bored again.
Sorry man. Maybe you can simply drill and tap some new holes in a different spot and make it work without all the extra trouble. Whaddya got to lose by trying? |
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If it were mine, I would
get the cam gear off in place . Crank gear to just to make it easier to get a new cam gear back on in place Get that front plate off See if there is gonna be room for some new bolt holes or see how cracked the front main is. If the front main is gonna live as it is then decide how you can get a couple of bolts through it and then drill and get them tapped. I cant stress enough that you need a tap drill of the correct size and also a starter tap to begin with and then finish with a bottoming tap. Otherwise the same cracked cast could happen. Also use a cutting fluid like rapid tap. Remember that cast doesnt flex like steel will so do 1/4 turn at a time when tapping, back up a 1/8 turn the go ahead that 1/8 plus another 1/4 turn. Is there room on the front side for a nut? You may be better off with a stud in the main cap and a nut on the front side. Blue loctite so it is removable. In Clean the area and the line channel. Clean all the parts and fix any dishes bolt holes etc Install a new felpro plate gasket Install new cam gear Assemble as usual for the rest That's just me, you gotta do what you gotta do Dont get too wired up about it, it's just something that happened and you can still make it better again. |
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So this is why it leaks badly now, the bottom of the plate-engine and timing cover-plate joints was not tight.
were the broken bits in the pan? If yes then we still don't know why you had the initial smaller leak If no, then the previous assembler did the damage and this -may- be why you had the original smaller leak. You just made it worse. That cap may be reparable if you can find someone to clamp it flat and then tig or braze up the broken edges, then drill it out and put nuts/washers on the inside. You might also make a heavy 'saddle' to span the two holes that you could thread it would need oil drain holes in it and might be tough to make strong enough, but something like this: Attachment 2322076 it would need to be strong enough to stop the leak AND hold the engine to the truck. not clear there is room to make it beefy enough I don't see much meat to what you have for new holes. The two smaller holes must be oil drains for the timing cover If you can't repair the cap then I think you need the engine out, stripped and off to a machine shop along with a cap from an junk engine |
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I'm almost done throwing up, just the dry heaves now.
My post mortem is very similar to yours Lee. Given the amount of gasket sealer that the previous owner had used at the front of the oil pan, its clear he was chasing a leak of some minor magnitude. I came across the leak and in trying to fix it, I made it worse. There is one broken shard from the right hand side of the end cap, the left hand side is just showing two cracks. I highly suspect these are of my doing when I tried to use a tap and then insert a larger sized bolt.....shame on me for being so cavalier. The side that has the chunk missing is right up to the timing plate, so I suspect no bolt/nut combination is going to be able to fully cover it up, thus continuing the leak. This seems to leave me with two options. Option 1 - attempt to repair with the engine in the truck. Removing the end cap and attempting a repair via tig welding. Option 2 - take the engine out of the truck and take the whole thing to a shop for removal of the cam shaft the right way by removing the valve train, push rods and lifters. Remove the timing cover plate, clean up and replace the gasket between the block and the plate. Then replace the end cap with one from the Unobtanium Store and have the engine shop put it all back together. Sorry, I went back to throwing up. On a related note. When I lifted the engine an inch this morning, back in the good old days before I knew how badly I screwed up, I lifted up the motor mounting plates that you can see in this photo. Attachment 2322093 The sheet metal plate does not seem to serve any function and is considerably wider than the bolt holes in the cross member for the motor mount bolts. I suspect the 1/4 aluminum plate was used to allow the motor to be height adjusted properly. My question is does this plate serve a purpose, because in fact, it makes getting to the front of the oil pan a bit harder. Now I will get back to my form of meditation, which involves cleaning up the shop. |
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IF I have to go on a scavenger hunt for this end cap, are there other engines besides this 1959 261 cu in that I can inquire about that would have the same end cap? 216, 235? What years?
What are the chances that one of you guys has a part number for this part? Even more daring, what are the chances that one of you guys has a bad engine beyond fixing that you are parting out? "If you don't ask, you don't get" |
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If the cap is salvageable enough to hold some retaining nuts or whatever, maybe you can still win by doing that. Then use side engine mounts for the engine. No more stress on that front area and those bolts only have to hold the steel plate tight. Make a bracket that bolts on with the main bearing cap boltss and bears down against the cap or else is strong enough not to bend when the smaller bolts are torqued up.
Or, spend a whack of cash for a new bag cap and a complete rebuild because the engine shop is gonna say why take it completely apart, install another front bearing cap and line bore the whole thing but then install used parts. |
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The good friend I bought this truck from used to own a business restoring classic cars. He bought this from the window of the former owner, but never touched it in five years other than to hand crank the engine occasionally. But I have receipts and photos of a complete engine rebuild, so there aren't any old parts where it matters on this engine. Here is a photo of the engine underside up close - Attachment 2322146
In case, after I stopped crying and throwing up I called him for some advice. He gave me the name of an old guy in the area who runs an engine speed shop and has history back to the 60's and 70's at Bonneville. In any case, we just got off the phone and he remembered the truck from my friends shop, where it sat for a year until his retirement, and he provided a raft of advice and a plan. First, he has another old Bonneville friend who will make a billet end cap for the engine and then he will do the work necessary to get the bearings right. He also said that the welding approach won't handle the torque applied to the harmonic balancer by the supercharger belt. He also suggested that having worked on superchargers for a long time, that the one key way on the crank and harmonic balancer will not handle the stress of the supercharger, so he would machine both to add a second key way. This is all my interpretation of what he suggested. He's going to stop out next week after Christmas to look at the engine and setup, but it appears that the engine will be exiting the vehicle soon. |
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Good to have a plan and nice to see you hooked up with a knowledgeable dude who can help.
I want meaning the parts are old and worn out but to an engine shop they are used parts and engine shops dont generally like used parts. |
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He suggested I not pull the engine until he has a chance to stop by and check it out. He was going to call his buddy about another clients engine and just added my need for the end cap to his list of things. He told me that at his age, he only works on friends and referrals, since my buddy used his services many times, he was glad to work with me. More to come as this elongated project continues. |
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a billet main bearing cap would be nice but would still need to be line bored so it lines up with the other main bearings correctly and has the correct crush to hold the bearing tight but not too tight. I suppose the machinist could set up and center the boring tool on the other main bearing bores and then simply finish the new bearing cap to the same diameter.
anyway, good idea to keep the engine in the frame till the dude shows up and sees what you have, he may have another idea that isn't so intense in the labour dept. that will give you time to clean up your shop floor, haha. what I have used to clean the interior of engines , diffs and other castings while in place, and slowly dripping oil for days, is a garden sprayer filled with your choice of solvent. hang some plastic around the area so it doesn't get everywhere, cover the floor around the area, place a large catch pan, throw on a good respirator and glove up. I have a couple of these sprayers for different solvents and found that some have oil resistant internal parts, like the ones used by concrete workers for the sealer they use. some also have longer and more user friendly wands and spray ends that are awesome for axle tubes etc. anyway, I hate constantly hand pumping them so I drilled a hole near the top, so my fingers can get the valve stem parts inside and installed a metal tire valve stem so I can pressure it up to 10 psi with the shop air line and a regulator. works great. flushes any debris along with oil etc. some brake clean when done leaves a pretty dry surface that mostly stops dripping. a kiddie pool works great for those larger clean ups like this. I buy brake clean by the 5 gallon jug, (it lasts forever that way, I can share it with the family boys and is a lot more economical plus the hand sprayer actually uses less that the high pressure aerosol cans) and have a small hand pump sprayer with viton seals inside. it can be pressured up low to avoid overspray everywhere or high for whatever is needed. the nozzle allows variuos spray patterns as well. I have several of these for different uses and buy bulk solvents (like engine degreaser, light oil (wd40 equivalents etc) to save shop supply costs but also because the hand sprayer is a lot more variable in spray patterns and pressures than the aerosols. https://bloomco.ca/products/2-gallon-pump-sprayer https://www.bline.ca/bolt-in-valve-stems https://www.amazon.ca/PRO-Pump-Spray...8313866e10cde6 |
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line boring is really the only way to get the bores all stacked up actually in line. not saying they arent inline now, just saying if you get a new bearing cap it has to be fitted to the block so it is inline with the other bearings. in all the previous suggestions I was tryig to give an alternative but really, line boring is the correct way. that said, you may wanna ask about if they can redo just the front bearing main bearing bore after replacing the cap with a new bearing billet cap. not sure but I think some of the old inline 6's had all different sized bearing outside diameters so the line bore would be more expensive because the dude would need to set up on each bearing. some of the old engines also used a shim under the bearing cap to adjust clearances. dunno if that applies to your engine or not but maybe something to check out and ask the dude about when he comes to look.
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Welcome
MERRY CHRISTMAS! it snowed here finally. It's been warm and they thought we would have a brown Christmas. The |
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