Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

What I envision your typical week as....

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

The umbrella up the poop shooter looks the part.

Outside of the day job, I'm in the midst of fitting the fuel pump, fitting the LSD, rebuilding the trans, prepping the yard for winter, and doing good dad and husband stuff.

Just had a nice visit from a friend who was recently diagnosed with very advanced brain cancer and may not last more than a few months. I admire his positive outlook and life focus (sorting out priorities). Helps me see the good in the world. Was a good visit.

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Glad you both had the opportunity to make each others day.

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

TRANS MOD 1: Rollerized Output

I used a Late 4L80E pump bushing (0.700" wide), protruding 0.100" into the case, with 0.125" protruding out back, assisted by red loctite and staked in place. Other people use an Early 4L80E pump bushing (0.550" wide) or a TH400 case bushing (0.615" wide) or a Sonnax "No Walk" bushing installed backwards. The original case bushing is 0.419" wide, and rests in a 0.475" wide bore.

A TH350 pump bushing (AC Delco 9436851) is placed inside, black side against the case, with about 0.020" shims underneath.

This mod helps deal with huge amounts of rearward thrust that the 4L80E sends to the back of the case.

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...32-672x378.jpg

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

This setup needed a 0.025" shim to get the end play within 0.003-0.008" rollerized end-play. Bearing-Cam (black side DOWN):

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...ut-672x380.jpg

TRANS MOD 2: Rollerized Reaction Carrier

The reaction carrier gets machined to fit a TH350 pump bearing (2.875" OD, 0.075" deep):

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...er-672x379.jpg

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...er-672x379.jpg

The pump bearing needed to be clearanced to slip over the sun gear.

This setup needed zero shims to get the end play within 0.002-0.006" with the center support.

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...er-672x380.jpg

TRANS MOD 3: Rollerized Direct Drum

The center support gets machined to fit a TH350 pump bearing (2.875" OD, 2.125" ID, 0.375" deep):

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...rt-672x381.jpg

MOD 4 Part 1: Dual-Feed Direct Clutch

Eagle-eyed viewers will notice the second sealing ring from the top has been removed. This is part of the Dual-Feeding modification. Roughly triples the application force of the Direct clutch.

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...rt-672x380.jpg

With respect to the Rollerization of the Direct Drum, this setup needed 0.035" shim to get the drum 0.005-0.010" off the bottom:

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...um-672x380.jpg

Everything got installed into the case. Save yourself hours of arguing with the Center Support Snap Ring, and notice that one edge is chamfered. You can thank me later:

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...rt-672x379.jpg

TRANS MOD 5: Heavy Duty Intermediate Snap Ring

Some say it's from a 727 Torqueflight, mine came in the TransGo kit. You can see the physical difference:

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...te-672x379.jpg

That's as far as I can go until my TH400 direct piston comes in....

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Wish I knew more about this stuff on transmissions. Some cool tech going on in there.

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

TH350 Pump Shim Kit:

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...05-672x378.jpg

With a little Silicon-Bronze TIG action:

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...06-672x378.jpg

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

nice. I'm with SCOTI, I wish I need more on the trans stuff too. But, its all good since I know my limitations, I can justify spending the money with someone that does know. Just got to find the right balance between knowledge and costs.

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Ya inside transmissions, whew. FM to me. :)

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

I initially like to say I have little experience with Automatics, but then I got to thinking....

I did Chrysler A904 in high school. Then studied the A904 in my apprenticeship days and did another one. Then did a Ford FMX.

I built a Ford C4 with a "truck" case and "car" tailshaft and housing for a V8 Pinto I was building.

I did a TH350 for my V8 Pontiac Firefly, with extra clutch and internal dual-feeding, then helped a student do the TH350 for his K10. Then did the TH350 in my '77 C10 when it blew up.

Then did a 4L60E in an S10 that was donated to the school so I could sell the truck and help fund my program.

Now I'm doing a 4L80E.

So I guess technically this isn't my first rodeo, though I don't really consider myself a "transmission man." I tend to research things thoroughly, and seek to understand what it is I'm doing. I'll share it all in a video when it's done.

The ARP bolts for the LSD arrived, so I hope to get that done this weekend.

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

"I can pay a pro to screw it up, or I can screw it up myself for free."

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

True. But spending $$ for parts & investing your time only to spend more money for more parts after spending more time to TRY & figure out what went wrong only to ultimately determine what you thought was correct wasn't & then have to rinse/wash/repeat. Sometimes leaving things to those that do it daily isn't necessarily a bad move. Either can get it done.

Kudos to you regardless :metal:

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

For sure. Many of my choices end up costing more than "paying the man," especially when it goes wrong. But in the process, I usually amass tools and such that make the next job easier/cheaper/a-new-more-expensive-mistake.

Having said that, I now have QUITE a collection of ARP ring gear bolts for Ford 9" axles. Nothing seems to fit my ring gear & Detroit TrueTrac. Anyone need some? The last ones ARP offers arrive Tuesday.

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

TH400 direct piston arrived, as did the Sonnax Over-Run-Clutch thingie.

The piston allows me to fit a sixth clutch with just a bit of machining.

The Sonnax jobbie allows me to NOT smoke the trans if I forget to shift out of Square-D if I'm being stupid (or if someone else is driving).

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

That's they way my 200R4 is set up at first it was weird but I like it now. :)

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Is it that it now has engine braking in all the gears, or what? I've never driven one; it just seemed like a good idea.

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Yes it does.

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

I waited WEEKS for my TH400 direct piston to arrive so I could run 6 clutches.

Did a wack of research, did some measuring, followed someone's advice, and discovered that my late 4L80E bonded direct piston is 0.675" tall. To run 6, I'd can only machine the TH400 piston down to 0.625", but I'd still need to run thinner steels (maybe all .077's instead of .092's, maybe a couple .060's as well) to get the right clearance.

That, then, is the debate: Do I stuff in an extra clutch for 20% more grip at the potential cost of 17% less heat resistance?

I'm thinking it's not worth it. In a 4000lb 2wd 60's pickup with 650rwhp on 8" tires and zero traction control.

5 clutches are well known to handle 1000hp just fine....

Grrr. Over-thinking. Just like buying the cam at the bottom of the page.

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

A wack of research, a wack of reference material, me staring at the TH400 piston I machined too small, and a wack of clutch-assemble/measure/disassemble/change/repeat only to receive a butt kicking....

Somehow, between yesterday and today, with nothing more than a "let's have another look here" disassemble/mic/reassemble, I now have a direct clutch pack with 0.060" clearance (yay) using six 0.077" forward steels and six 0.080" frictions (double yay), on the bonded piston.

Not sure what happened, but here I am. I will stop measuring and just blindly reassemble. Maybe hang the ruined TH400 piston on the wall.

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

The rear axle appears to be out of ~1980 Ford Econoline Van. It has 3.50 gears.

Pumpkin is removed:

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...ut-672x379.jpg

Detroit TrueTrac (helical "Torsen" style differential) is purchased:

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...ac-672x381.jpg

Timkin carrier bearings are installed:

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...gs-672x381.jpg

Ring gear boiled and hot, slipped onto frozen carrier to aid in reassembly:

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...on-672x378.png

This is when I discovered the old diff is also a Trac-Loc "clutch" type limited slip (with no "limited," but extra "slip"), and the ring gear bolts are too long. And they look stretched. So new ARP bolts ordered and installed (ARP recommends 85ft-lbs).

This is a semi-hunting gearset, and the ring and pinion must be "keyed" together. Luckily there are marks:

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...on-672x380.jpg

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...ar-672x379.jpg

Diff installed, carrier bearing preload set by turning in the adjuster until you see the outer bearing race just move, then turn each adjuster ONE hole more. Then adjust backlash (spec is 0.010-0.016"). I measured 0.016" when I took it apart, I set it to 0.015" on reassembly. Carrier Bearing caps are torqued to 80ft-lbs.

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...sh-672x381.jpg

Now just need a slather of Permatex Ultra Black on the sealing surface, axles in, and some Redline 75W90NS GL5 goes in.

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Man I sure love the 9 inch and miss it.

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Good result on the TH400 piston setup.
Installing the ring gear in the kitchen - brave man :-)
I remember using the dishwasher to clean a vw autobox casing - just the once...

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

This thing is coming along nice.

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Direct drum is in. Forward drum is in. Pumpkin is in.

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

MOD 6: Dual-Feed Direct Clutch (Part 2)

I removed the center lip seal in the drum, which is part of dual-feeding the Direct apply piston. This removes the separation between the Direct and Reverse sections of the apply piston.

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...al-672x380.jpg

MOD 7: 6-Clutch Direct

Lots of internet opinion between running a TH400 direct piston, vs just keeping the 4L80E bonded piston. I kept the bonded piston, tossed the wave plate, and squeezed in six frictions by using six 0.077" forward steels. Clearance ended up a perfect 0.060" (0.010" per clutch).

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...es-672x381.jpg

MOD 8: Rollerized Forward Hub

The Direct Drum is pretty sloppily supported. We are going to reduce the slop, and add a Torrington to better support the Drum.

Following Interweb advice....

To do this, the Forward Hub "shoulder" gets machined to fit Ford AOD Torrington bearing (I used 1F1Z-7F404-AA). The "shoulder" is machined down: (bearing thickness) minus (original thrust bushing thickness) minus (about 0.030" clearance reduction), which in my case should have been 0.050", which I thought I initially cut. I may not have.

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...ne-672x379.jpg

Now, you also need to know that Direct Drum to Forward Hub clearance should be 0.003-0.008" when rollerized. I'm not exactly sure how to measure this, you can't exactly get a dial indicator in there. Machining the shoulder more, should move the Forward Hub closer to the Direct Drum. With what I had initially cut, there was a noticeable amount of drum-to-hub play. I also ended up with ZERO front end play in the trans.

I don't know if this is correct, but I measured the distance from the Direct Hub to the mainshaft, and got 1.911"

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...ng-672x378.jpg

I installed the forward bearing (0.143" thick) and got 1.933"

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...ng-672x378.jpg

Again: I don't know what I'm doing.

The difference was 0.022", and in my head it made sense to cut 0.017" more off the Forward Hub (0.005" clearance), which makes NO sense to me right now. But this gave me 0.010" front end play in the trans, which is bang on what I wanted (.005" more than the rear). I hope this works.

NOTE: The 0.050" cut will get you in the ball park. You really need to assemble the trans and check the Front End play, and machine the shoulder to get the end play where you want it.


Front end play should be 0.002-0.005" GREATER than the rear end play (if you are NOT lifting the output shaft to take up rear end play).

4th clutch installed:

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...ch-672x379.jpg

Overdrive installed:

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...ve-672x379.jpg

MOD 9: Overdrive Lube Feed

Overdrive lube hole drilled out to 1/8":

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...be-672x379.jpg

MOD 10: Converter Charge Line

Drilling a 0.050" hole provides the converter with charge oil regardless of pressure regulator. This will increase pressure in the converter, and more oil drain back.

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...ge-672x379.jpg

MOD 11: Converter Oil Drainback

The existing drain might not be large enough for the increased oil, so we'll drill it out to 1/4".

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...in-672x378.jpg

MOD 12: Pressure Regulator & Boost Valve

This is just remove and replace. I used the one in my TransGo kit. Allegedly Sonnax is more desirable, but my interweb research suggests it really doesn't matter which one you use. This was annoying to install.

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...ve-672x378.jpg

Pump installed:

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...mp-672x379.jpg

Rear seal inserted ONLY enough to allow the snap ring to snap into place (makes sure oil gets to rear case bushing).

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...al-672x380.jpg

Extension Housing installed.

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...ng-672x380.jpg

Next, I'll be getting into the valvebody with some changes.

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

My references for what I'm doing:

Articles taken from Gears Magazine (issues on their website):

4L80-rollerize-output-and-center-support

4L80-rollerize-carrier

Threads referenced for the build:

Bob Is The Oil Guy: 4L80E

Bob Is The Oil Guy: 4L80E Rebuild Questions That Have Not Been Answered

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Latest Video:

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Now things become smoke and mirrors:

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...32-672x378.jpg

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

I don’t know, step away from the keyboard for a few minutes and Skinny goes from banging body panels and using a blaster to whittling bits of tin and using his best measuring squint.

Enjoyed the video.

Now let’s see some burnouts on the way to get ice cream.

P. :D

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Borrowed a friend's kit to re-machine the Actuator Feed Limit valve and insert a new and more wear-resistant valve, a common issue with 4L80E's.

Also ordered up a new Torque Converter Clutch regulator valve as well. They're cheap, and I'm in there.

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

I reamed the AFL valve more to fit the new (larger) TransGo valve (Thanks Darcy!).

I also did all the mods in the valve body and separator plate required for the Sonnax Over Running Clutch Valve (which applies said clutch for when you forget to drop out of Square-D (Overdrive). Good safety insurance, because I'm getting old and forgetful. VERY nice product, and super clear instructions.

Reassembled the valve body with the remainder of the parts from the TransGo HD2 kit. I drilled 2nd to 0.093" and 3rd and 4th to 0.101". Did not install, as I am waiting for the TCC valve.

Also drove in the 3/8" cup plug to block the reverse feed to the Direct Clutch. I did NOT use the HD2 separator, I dual-fed internally (remove 2nd seal from center support, remove center seal from direct drum, and plug reverse feed).

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Can’t wait to see how this transmission acts in operation.

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Me too!

The TCC valve arrived today, so I should be able to finish it all up this weekend, maybe get it on the motor and back in the chassis. I have most of the video edited (still need to narrate it), got 20hours of video down to 30 minutes with enough detail to be useful.

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

TCC valve came in, so I installed it.

Installed the valvebody.

Installed the Overrun Clutch Valve.

Finished the valvebody, but forgot to get a filter.

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...49-672x378.jpg

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Picked up a filter, attached the pan, and a spray of Aluminum engine paint.

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...56-672x378.jpg

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...26-672x378.jpg

Tomorrow - hang it off the motor, and set it in the chassis.

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Latest Video:

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

The driveshaft got painted. Bear's Performance out of Ontario, 1350 u-joints:

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...32-378x672.jpg

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Damn SkinnnyG you are the MAN! Thank you for all the detail and vids on all this stuff, that is just awesome!!!

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

x2.

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Cab placed on the chassis for hopefully the last time. Energy Suspension cab mounts (63-66) with front top bushing machined down to 5/8" thick as per original bushing. PQY fuel pressure regulator mounted.

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...50-672x378.jpg