Re: Project: Recycle
 

I appreciate that feedback. Seems better to understand the 'why' a decision was made when being told of a specific part that's not just a bolt-in swap. I was very impressed w/the QA1 C10 stuff when I looked @ their set-up @ the C10 Nats last year. I use the same method of thought for the cars stuff as well & actually will be using a QA1 front sway bar for the G-body. Quality parts.

I'm better than I used to be but nowhere near amazing. Just trying to build something solid, safe, & on a blue-collar budget.

Thanks for the comments :metal:

Re: Project: Recycle
 

Looks good on there.
Nice to get back on schedule eh? As you were...

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I trimmed more away from the original bag mount. There's a fingers width of clearance all around the spring now. I also trimmed the front stud as well. Pulled the bracket & getting ready to put some heat to it now....

Re: Project: Recycle
 

I've been pushing through & trying to get things done despite the heat & dead-ends in my attempt to utilize true tie-rod ends for the steering links. This was a concern of mine from day-one as I feel a true TRE would be better vs. a heim. I know lots of guys use heims on their builds. I know they're a common need on these aftermarket x-member/R&P set-ups. Lot's of guys also use bolt-in c-notches that kill frame strength but that doesn't make them the best choice especially when other options are possible....

I wanted to try other possibilities before defaulting to the use of heims. This was complicated by the recent spindle change (OE style spindle to CPP's modular spindle). It seems the CPP modular spindle is a little looser w/it's TRE pad tolerances.

To summarize..... Can't use OE C10 TRE's because of length (PB Dropmember + 1" narrowed arms + modular spindle). They can be cut down shorter but then would need to be machined to size & threaded. I don't have that equipment available to me & wasn't going to pay machine shop prices for a 'maybe it will/maybe it won't' mod. It was also not a 'correct' fit in the CPP spindles TRE pad (too loose/too much play).

I tried an alternative TRE that's been used before on C10's from a International Scout II. The books dimensions said it would work. In reality, the Moog part was a no go (stud too short) & it was too loose (worse) in the spindle TRE pad.

I tried a common 4wd upgrade option using GM 1-ton 4wd TRE's. These are HD sized but close in length needs (to the Scout unit) & threaded similarly (like the Scouts). The thread shank/size is larger but that's just a different adapter or re-drill/re-tap the heim adapter I already had. One requirement though was it required reaming the spindle TRE pad for a larger stud (if it would have worked, this would have corrected the loose tolerances of the CPP spindles TRE pad). I bought the correct reamer & gave it a go. Unfortunately, the spindles TRE pad required reaming it enough so that when the castle nut reached the point of inserting a cotter-pin, the TRE's body was closer than desired. It cleared when cycling the suspension but the grease-boot would have been destroyed in short order.

Can't say I didn't try....

So, the process of installing the heims (w/the correct 5/8" bolts) vs. just having them in place for mock-up (1/2" or 5/8" bolts depending on the spindles) required drilling the spindle TRE pad for inserts the correct size so that the 5/8" bolts were seated securely. I purchased inserts online (7/8" OD; 5/8" ID). Technically these were press-fit drill bushings. I bought 2 different sets: 1x 'standard'; 1x 'oversized'. The oversized bushings have additional material & require the end user to machine them to the final dimensions needed.

Drilling for the bushings was straight-forward.... Kind-of. I googled & watched YT videos of guys drilling the spindles w/a hand drill. Seemed sketchy but more than one off-roader has done it so 'timid me' just had to put my big-boy pants on & get it done. I strapped the spindle to keep it from moving. Used a uni-bit to have a nice 'starting pad' for the larger bits (started w/a 3/4"). It was almost immediately apparent in my head that this was NOT the correct approach. While I was able to drill through, the drill pulled/pushed if the bit dug in. Stop, reset, re-start. I got through but wasn't impressed. I thought "well maybe now that there's a 3/4" hole all the way through (vs. a tapered hole)… the next pass will ease my mind". Nope. Same drill (pun intended).

The 7/8" bit would dig in & pull the drill any direction but plumb. It was a PITA to keep it straight as this was the main focus. I was hoping I did good enough & suppose I did but I was not happy w/the 'quality' of the outcome. The 'standard' bushing had play when inserted from the top. It did fit snug (could barely insert it) from the bottom. One of the oversized bushings was used on this one (un-touched/as-is).

In the end, it required the hydraulic press to get the bushing seated in the spindle so I know I'm good but I also knew I WAS NOT doing the other spindle the same way. I knew it could be done 'better'. It took some staring & head-scratching but I figured out a way to get it done & luckily had some nice tools @ my work that made it happen.

The 2nd spindle took longer to set-up than it did to drill. But, once drilled, it was true & the 'standard' bushing had the same resistance top + bottom this time. Again, this bushing also required seating w/the hyd press.

So that's been occupying my shop time for the last 2-3wks. Researching parts options. Researching 'how-to'. Acquiring the parts. Buying another car. Getting it done. Getting it done correctly.... With the TRE task completed, I'll start next week & get the drivers side lower mount & passenger side C/O brackets finish welded.

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There are rubber boots you can get for Heim joints that can protect it from the elements. Likely not be as good as a proper tie rod, but better than open and exposed.

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Yes sir. Already have them & have had them for a bit. I just needed to exhaust the other possibilities first.
Thanks regardless as others may not know about them.

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Your gettin it figured man. Shame your original idea didn't work out but it's gonna be solid. Looks good.

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Wait you bought another car? A Project Car or a Driver Car?

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Both. Sort-of.

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I just want to say I appreciate the level of detail and work you put into your posts. There is a lot of info/ideas/execution that I (and I assume others) are able to pull from them.

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I appreciate that as I'm def trying to help if/where possible.

Thanks!

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Times 2 . I have not yet had time to fully check out this build but glancing over it you have skills way beyond everything I have seen. When I get done with my 4x4 project I will definitely use your build as the idiot's guide to chassis work lol on my 2wd trucks. Keep up the good work

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As you're aware, my recent requests & our conversation had me looking in on your stuff & has me filing your 4x4 info as a reference to educate myself. Thank you as well ;)


As for a thread/build update, I've been working on it. The driver side brackets are fully welded & cleaned up w/60grit.

I put the 2nd C/O together & did the 2nd trimming on the upper PB Dropmember bag mount for the passenger side. I liked where things were @ so I drilled the holes for the lower mount & the lower arm. I have it all sitting there & today will try to verify the C/O is @ the same angle as the driver side. Then I'll pull the brackets out & get them welded up. The assemble/disassemble process can be time consuming..... and repetitive.

I haven't given it much thought but I'll prob grab one of the various sway-bars I have & do as mock-up for that to while I'm in there. I have an Addco/PB bar that wouldn't work in a different app as well as a ginormous bar (1 3/8" Bell Tech??) I bought for my Dually to test & see if either might work.

Re: Project: Recycle
 

Your welcome keep up the good work and keep on truckin

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I went back through these early posts, saw this one above from 10yrs ago ( :rolleyes: ) & had to chuckle....

It's now 4x 2 doors & 2.5x Camino's I've owned (the .5 is for the non-running manual swap donor I bought solely for the 3-pedals & column shift delete steering column). We (myself & MattA) wound up swapping the automatic & column from the tan 'Bu posted early in this thread (pg2) over to the ElCo after we were able to get it running. Surprisingly, it even ran pretty decent. So I thought cha-ching.... I'll get the manual trans swap parts needed & make some money on top of it by selling off the donor! But, my buddy needed a cheap solid ride so it went to him.

Since then, this is No.4 2dr. It now holds the title of cleanest as far as floor-pan rust issues . . ….

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Man I love those G-body Malibu’s.
I’ve only had one over the years, but have always liked them.
I’d even take a clean wagon.

You need to post more pics of your Malibu.

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If they all cost the same, I would have been purchasing 66 & 70 Chevelle's vs g-body's. But, a clean survivor base model 66 or 70 is multiple times more than what a g-body goes for. I do like that g-body's are lighter, smaller, & still just as easy to work-on or upgrade.

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That Malibu is very clean. I do like those two doors, but never see a clean one for sale around my part of the state...only the junk seems to come up for sale.

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Small update.

C/O brackets for both sides welded & bolted in. C/O's installed on both sides now. I put the spindles on both side & everything seems good. I need to get 2 front tire swapped onto the correct wheels (original tires are way past a service timeline despite zero miles). Going to use a similar set of trailer takes offs until I'm closer to it actually being drivable.

I pushed to get everything back together because I knew I needed to start thinking & making decisions on another front end item..... The sway bar.

Re: Project: Recycle
 

I've got 4 C10 era sway bars hanging under my storage racking:

*1.125" OE standard bar
*1.25" OE C10HD/C20/C30 bar
*1.25" Addco/PBDM bar
*1.375" Bell Tech? (I'm pretty sure that was the manufacturer & looking for the paperwork to confirm).

I knew the OE bars were out because of the a-arm mounting style. So I grabbed the used Addco/PB bar I purchased off a board member as well as the Bell Tech unit I initially bought for my Dually.

I WAS surprised that the Bell Tech bar was actually slightly narrower than the Addco/PB bar considering the PB Dropmember has a narrowed track width vs. what the Bell Tech bar is spec'd for. I laid the BT bar on the floor under the front frame rails & WAS NOT surprised it was wider than the mounts on the arms (Dropmember + narrowed arms). But, while the ends of the sway-bar were wider & not plumb w/the C/L of the sway-bar link mounts on the a-arms, they weren't that far off either After staring @ it for a while, I grabbed more spare parts I had for the G-body & have a starting point for my solution.

In true fashion for this build, the bar bought for the Dually will get used & the end-links for the G-body will be part of the set-up as well. More 'recycled' stuff vs. having to buy new stuff :metal:

Re: Project: Recycle
 

A couple of pics w/the G-body spec end-link set-up loosely in position to get a visual. My main concern is link alignment between the bar & a-arm mounts. That's where using this bar & the Addco/PB bar on my dually both failed. Misalignment killed the poly bushings quickly.

Obviously I could move the a-arm mount position to accommodate different bars but since they're already PC'd I'd prefer to not have to.

I purchased these end links in 2016 while trying to sort through the Dually issues knowing if they didn't work for that app I could use them on a G-body since they have a way of crossing my path.

You can see in the images where the link falls to the outer edge of the current bracket placement. While still not perfectly 'plumb', they're much closer vs trying to use the standard bushings @ bar > spacer < bushings @ a-arm mount arrangement. I'll keep studying it to decide if I simply drill the vertical portion of the current brackets & utilize a spacer/bearing assembly or trim/tweak the current mount as needed for something that attaches. Doing something that attaches also allows tweaking the placement for a 'plumb' alignment.

This is where loosely putting things together helps for me. I see it & start the 'what-if' process in my head. I keep looking @ it daily until I get ideas to try & see what might work (or what won't work). It's the approach I take that works w/the limited fabricating tools/skills I have.

Re: Project: Recycle
 

SCOTI, are you attaching the sway bar directly to the frame rails or using some kind of lowered sway bar stand like ECE use to sell?

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My stuff has always been low enough that by-passing the tradtional 'lowered' mounting worked best. For this mock-up, the frame bushings are attached directly to the rail as well.

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How close is the sway to the steering linkage? Can't really tell in your pics. Looks like you have a solid plan, and re-using parts is always a plus :thumbs:

.

Re: Project: Recycle
 

Should fit w/o interference @ the proper length. I'm using the hardware that came w/the links in the pics which is not correct (too long) for the application needs. The sway bar is also not 100% seated @ the frame pivot mounts as there are only 2-holes (fronts) securing the bracket for the mock-up. I'll be drilling the other holes this week.

Re: Project: Recycle
 

Latest update....

I've been waiting for a steering column bracket & received it last night (upper column under dash bracket). I popped the old/used van-tilt column in place today & as expected it's too long. I needed that bracket to properly secure the column so I could get some accurate measurements & will now start researching my options. I’m probably going to attempt to cut it down for my needs since there seems to be quite the wait for high quality shortened aftermarket columns (plus they’re freaking expensive :eek:).

I've also been researching & sorting through info for a front sway-bar. I mocked-up a couple different combos & decided on a set-up that offered better clearance w/minimal intrusive fab work. I placed orders for all the misc sway bar parts yesterday.

What I think I learned . . …..

The OE GM bars & a couple aftermarket bars in my possession:
BellTech C10 'Sport' solid bar @ 1.375"OD @ 40-41"
Addco/Porterbuilt C10 solid bar @ 1.25"OD @ ~43-44"
2014 Ridetech 'MuscleBar' tubular 1.375"OD (?) @ ~45-46"
GM 73-87 C10 1.125"OD solid bar @ ~44-45” (off memory)
GM 73-87 C20/30 1.25"OD solid bar

My set-up on this project has about ~39" width between the end-link mounts as measured @ the a-arm. But, the 'link' bracket on the lower arms is angled/tilted in toward the center of the truck which makes the links (where they will meet the sway-bar) even narrower (~38"). None of the ‘on-hand’ bars would work as everything was too wide.

The BellTech bar was very close & the end-links were just outside of the brackets on the arms. I debated options to make this bar work but there were 2 problems that changed my direction: 1) The a-arm bracket angle mentioned above was opposite of the end-link angle of the sway-bar; 2) I noted that the set-up was extremely low (the lowest item on the front rails) when mounted. The mounting position on the frame is dictated by the alignment of the sway-bars end-link mount/the a-arm mounts & you can’t change that on a 1pc bar. This seemed counter-productive considering everything was modified for low ride height w/excellent ground clearance.

I also reached out to Nate (Porterbuilt) for bar info as he’s building them in house now. As always, he was helpful. But after more research, I decided to utilize a different approach.

I searched online for some sort of equation, calculator, or chart to better understand/compare the rate of the bars I had to help narrow a starting point on a modular set-up.
During this search I found some tech info for Ridetech's current C10 Strong-Arm 'MuscleBar' set-up: Tubular 1.5"OD x .250" wall bar w/a listed rate of 1020#. I'm using that as a comparison with the other bars I have by utilizing a spread-sheet for modular/splined bars I found @ Speedway Engineering (not SpeedwayMotors). It has info for modular/splined bars (bar-size, type, arm-length info/calcs).
While probably not 100% correct/exact on the 1pc. OE bar numbers, I know I’m somewhere in the ball-park vs. just assuming:

Fixed Rate
OE GM standard bar @ 1.125" solid w/14" arms = ~264# of anti-torsional twist
OE GM HD 1.25" solid w/14" arms @ 350#
Addco/PB 1.25" solid w/15" arms @ 330#
Bell Tech 1.375" solid w/14" arms @ 494#

2020 Ridetech/Musclebar 1.5" .250 wall tubular @ 1020# per online specs


Modular/Adjustable Rate
Speedway Eng. 1.5" hollow w/14" arms @ 549#
Speedway Eng. 1.5" hollow w/8" arms @ 957#
Speedway Eng. 1.375" solid w/8" arms @ 864#
Speedway Eng. 1.25" solid w/8" arms @ 617#


The 2020 Ridetech bar rate is confusing based on the fact that all the other bars (which are OE or direct OE configuration replacements) have a measured arm length of approx. 14". Using the Speedway spread sheet for their hollow bar @ 14" arm length indicates the 549# and that's w/thicker .500" wall tubing vs. Ridetechs .250" wall. I don't know if this new 'C10 MuscleBar' is somehow different.

A modular set-up allows moving the sway-bar back (closer) to the a-arms.
By moving the mounting location, I gain ground clearance because the rail starts rising as it gets closer to the main cross-member. This relocation also allows using shorter ‘arms’ for the bar. The shorter arms increase the rate of resistance @ the bar because of the inherent differences in leverage. A shorter arm in this application (sway-bar) = harder to move. Win/win. The 8" arm length is the result of the ‘new’ sway bar frame mount centerline.

Instead of having ~3” of ground clearance in a ‘stock’ placement position on the rails, I’ll now have 5.25”.

The 8” ‘arm’ length vs. the OE bars 14” increased a 1.25” solid bars rate of twist-resistance almost double vs. having to move up to a 'bigger' bar. Plus, the modular set-up allows tuning the rate up or down by having multiple positions on the ‘arms’ where they connect to the end-links. In this app, moving the end-link to 9” decreases the rate to ~547# or going the other way to 7” increases the rate to 705#. I will also have the option to use different bars (larger diameter; tubular or solid, ETC…) as the arms can easily be swapped over.

Re: Project: Recycle
 

Dadgum, that's a lot of research. I like the extra ground clearance with the shorter arms

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You 'aint kiddin.....

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Don't be afraid of fabricating your own sway bars exactly to your liking.

I've made a few over the years.

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This modular approach seems good.

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70shortfleet on this forum built a van tilt column for me, shortened it 2", all new bearings, wiring, and plastics. Can't remember if I already said something to you... He has several options you can request. He is also half the cost of new reproduction units(the good ones). If at least, he could provide some information if you wanted to build it yourself.

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/member.php?u=83680

:chevy:

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You did provide info but I wasn't aware of the/an ability to modify & shorten a column as well. Good to know!

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Parts came in yesterday so I did a quick assembly last night for a glamour shoot...

Unfortunately, I'm missing one of the end-links that I ordered (circled). I'm debating what to do about that @ this point because the piece that did come in uses Metric hardware that is too large for the spherical link. I'll have to remove the Metric stuff (10mm) for SAE (3/8") & modify accordingly for this app or just make some better suited from scratch.

Making them from scratch might be better since I don't have to 'undo' things first (stud welded in the bottom isn't quite long enough & one hole for the upright portion has to be drilled to the correct size; the stud & other hole are slightly larger 10mm vs. 3/8 holes) & it would allow me to put a slightly larger foot-print/base as well.

Re: Project: Recycle
 

Got the 2nd/missing end-link mounting bracket for the a-arm side of things & I also purchased some materials in case I decide to make my own (for a better/beefier fit). The same parts shipment also had the 'male' ends of the end link fittings & new SS steering u-joints that will replace the mild-steel units I've had.

With all of the sway bar items now in house, I made some temporary 'arms' for mock-up purposes yesterday so I can install & ensure everything aligns as envisioned. I'll get it all installed tonight/this weekend & if things work as hoped, I'll get the actual steel arms whittled down to size next week.

I reached out to my longtime buddy that's a GM Tech & he feels confident that between the two of us we can shorten the column length.
So, if the sway-bar install is finalized this weekend, chopping the column down is next on my punchlist....

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Just mocked-up temporarily but it's in place.....

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Awesome. I notice the arms have a bit of a down angle to the stabilizer bar. How important is that to be level? Mine has a bit of an angle in rear and have been wondering about that.

:chevy:

Re: Project: Recycle
 

I think it's more camera angle than anything. I recall the arms are fairly level @ this set-up height (ride height give or take a smidge) when you look @ them while laying on the floor. If I need, I can always move the bar up inside the frame vs under but I feel ok for now.

I feel the important thing is keeping the link/s as plumb & aligned as possible. If it's in a slight bind sitting still, does it get worse when compressed/extended? I know it did w/my dually & killed the poly bushings in short order. It now has Ridetech's Posi-Links which seem to be holding up.

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Nice work Scoti!

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Thank you sir!

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Wow what a great Idea! Where did you come up with the black U-shaped bracket? Think this would work? - https://www.ebay.com/itm/Spherical-F...Cclp%3A2334524
https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/...1&d=1603477265