Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

Larry, just parused the whole thread, looks like you have a mighty fine truck coming togeather.

I did not see if you used the dodge or the GM tranny, but the dodge NV4500 had issues with the 5th gear nut backing off, and the gear failing. They would get noisy first and then going down the road 5th gear will just stop working.

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

From what I was told the 5th gear issue was addressed in the trannies after the '96 model year.

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

70custom20,

I don’t foresee any problem using a 10 spline 205 with an Advance Adapter NV4500 kit. Except, as you mentioned, a good deal of driveline slop is typical with 10 spline adapters. I sold my 10 spline 205 and went with a 27 spline 205 to help get more spline counts in the coupler for that reason. I would have rather had a newer round pattern 32 spline 205 with a less intrusive AA NV4500 kit but I couldn’t find a round 205. Sometimes I wish I would have just settled on a 32 spline NP241 until a 32 spline round 205 popped up especially after having to rip the 27 spline 205 out after 300 miles to replace a cog. BTW.....welcome to the best GM truck site on the internet!

GM and Dodge both had the 5th gear nut issues. The vibration of the diesels made the condition worse and being most Dodges are diesels made it appear it was more of a Dodge issue. The reality it is an issue across the board for all NV4500’s sooner or later. The NV4500 I am using is a 1998 K3500 trans from behind a 7.4L that the nut had just started to back off where the coupler between 5th gear and the actual nut was starting to spin around. That said, I don’t think the 5th gear issue was corrected in 1996. In fact, I don’t think it was ever completely resolved.

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

Keep in mind also that by using the AA 27 spline kit, the nut is eliminated anyway. It's replaced with a bolt on collar installed after the last 4" (APPROX) of the tail shaft is cut off. I don't see that collar backing off at all unlike the stock nut.

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

Yeah, that is one neat thing about the 27 spline to NV4500 AA kit. The nut goes adios while the transmission tailshaft housing to tcase connection holds the entire contraption together and 5th gear in place. In time, we’ll see how good that works out in the real world :lol:

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

Larry, do you have the 27 spline input gear you need yet? If you are still looking for one, I have one and I'm looking for a 10 spline. (sorry, I didn't have time to read back through and see if you found one)

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

camper updates?

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

Yeah, link here to camper thread. :ito:

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

DirtyLarry,

THANKS for the picture of the hydro-boost plumbing setup!

Joe

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

i have a 72 k10 i want to put an nv4500 behind a big block chevy 396 is it possible

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

Yep, Chevrolet has only used the same bell housing pattern on their engines for the last 60 some years.

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

would i use a bell of a 90's chevy 350 for the bolt pattern on the nv4500

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

TAg for use soon.

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

Come on Larry, you know that's not exactly correct. They overlap but they are not completely "the same" ;)
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/a...1&d=1278963661

You would have to use a bell housing off of a 93+ nv4500 that was behind a 350 or 454 (i'm not sure about the 6.5 diesels but probably the same also). There were a lot of sm456 trannies in the 3/4 - 1 tons from 88-92 that won't bolt up to the nv4500. You might already know that, just making sure.

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

Yeah, but I meant bell housing mating shape between the engine and trans. You could take the NV3500 in your picture and bolt it on to the back of a 1955 265 V8 if you wanted. Obviously, they used many different actual bellhousings over the years depending on transmissions but the engine mating shape never changed. ;)

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

Your right, I was just giving you a hard time mainly. That's why I used the word "overlap". However, I have had people tell me that my bell housing pictured above IS NOT for a chevy after they see that bolt hole at the top. Guys that are just unfamiliar with the LS engines.

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

:lol: That is funny. Odd about that top center bolt, as that does come up as a conversation piece from time to time. Chevrolet used it on old engines back in the 50’s then stopped casting it in engines for like 40+ years until the late 90’s. Kind of like how the LS engines does not cast bolt provisions on the passenger’s side (1 o’clock position) of the LS engines. They still bolt together the same though where old engines can be mated to new transmissions or vice versa. Chevrolet has been consistent like that.

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

I just acquired a 1983 k10 with a 350 and a 3 speed with a.granny gear it is strong but. It keeps popping out of granny gear. I was playing with it in the yard and noticed it won't hardly go in gear or stay in gear. Let me ask you. How hard would it.be to switch to a 350 turbo or.700 r4 this.truck is for my son. So a automatic might be better for him
I hope this is not what they call hijacking your thread but. I thought.you might give me a clear answer thanks
Posted via Mobile Device

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

Yeah, this is pretty much a highjack. This thread is more about swapping in a NV4500 manual trans, not a 700R4 automatic. There are lots of threads on 700R4 swaps elsewhere though. Do a quick search and you should find some helpful threads ;)

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

Awesome job! I am wanting to do this to my 71 K10. Currently running sm465, but I ran across a thread about having to have a vehicle speed sensor and was wondering if you installed something to that effect to make it run right or if you were able to run the speedo cable to the transfer case without any issues.

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

Larry, I went back and reread this and didn't see an answer to the question I'm about to ask...did you consider a ZF6 manual tranny at any time? If so, was price a deciding factor or do you simply like nv4500s that much more?

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

Muckmorris,

I am not running any kind of speed sensor. Just the stock speedo cable from the NP205 tcase to the speedo head.

Critter,

Nah, I never considered a ZF S6-650. I have one of those behind an 8.1L in my 2500HD and not real fond of it. It is one awkward shifting transmission. Have you ever driven one? The NV4500 is so much nicer shifting. Aside from that, I don’t think it would fit without a body lift or significant firewall and trans tunnel work. The ZF is HUGE but is probably a much stronger trans than a NV4500. I haven't heard of any ZF's with OD gear set issues or anything else that the NV4500 are famious for :lol:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5249/...c6fc299d_o.jpg

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5003/...cc8c52be_o.jpg

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

I have driven the Ford version but never the Duramax or 8.1 Version. That's somewhat why I was asking, I know your are an 8.1 guy so I figured you were familiar with them. I'm a big fan of the NV4500 also, I'll just stick with them. The 5 trucks I've had with them so far have treated me right.

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

thanks for the feedback Dirty larry

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

Hey Larry,

What bellhousing did you end up using? I scanned the thread but didn't see where you mentioned this. I just picked up an NV4500 this afternoon for my C/10 but it didn't come with a bell, I still think it was a deal.

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

Quick question for you larry since you have experience with the gm zf 650, have you ever driven the dodge 6spd behind the cummins and if so which do you think is a better shifting tranny or has better driveablility? I had an early 24v cummins 2wd 6spd i got dirt cheap as a tow truck then drove a 12v 5spd and absolutely hated it the wide ratio shift is so annoying i felt like my arm was fully extended in 5th. I was also interested in how different the dodge and gm 5spd shift patterns are unless there the same

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

Yeah, lots of stuff to sort through in this thread. :lol: I used the Advance Adapters 712576 bellhousing ($366 @ Summit Racing) along with their 715535 hydro clutch slave cylinder bracket. These goods were part of kit 27-0031.

Yeah, I’ve driven a 6 speed behind a Cummins but it was an early NV5600, not the G56 Dodge is using these days. It was my buddy’s truck that lives in California. I didn’t get to drive it very far as I was helping him shuttle cars after he moved but I liked it much better than I like my ZF S6-650. The NV5600 shift pattern just seemed “right” and the throw felt predictable. The ZF in my Silverado is a miserably awkward and clunky shifting German dump truck pile of aluminum crap with reverse being in a very stupid spot towards your right leg and up, which can easily be confused for 1st gear when taking off from stop. I drove this truck off the lot brand new 11 years ago this month and still cannot get used to how awkward the ZF shifts. The pizz poor clutch geometry in the GMT800 trucks doesn’t help much either. I hate it!

Regarding the 5 speeds, sounds like the 12v 5speed you drove was an old Getrag or an early NV4500 with the first generation trans cover and shift tower. Those did have a large throw to poke them up into 5th gear. The later (after 1994 or 1995) got a tighter shift pattern. I don’t think what you described is a GM vs. Dodge trans versions, just more of the early vs. late transmission versions. There are definitely more people round here that know NV4500’s better than I do to know for sure.

I will say this though, of all the truck type manual transmissions I’ve driven the NV4500 is by far my favorite. It is not a sports car transmission, but compared to a SM465, ZF S6-650, NV5600 the NV4500 might as well be a sports car transmission. I would love to drive a G56 in a later model Dodge to see what those are all about.

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

Ah, I noticed the other day that it has almost been 10,000 miles since the NV4500 swap was complete. These miles aren’t cruising around town miles but traveling on off-road adventure trips around Arizona, Utah and fishing trips to the local mountains. With almost 10K on it, it still works just as nice as it did right after the swap in March of 2011. I still love it!

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8314/8...d697544d_c.jpg

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

I can't remember which 12v it was but i thought it was the last i think 2 years of them and i towed my mud truck with it which pulled it fine but i just could never get use to that shift pattern and always wondered about the ZF because i thought a mud truck with a 6spd would be something fun but i want a fast shifting one like a t56 or a clutchless style shift like a lenco or jerico but i am not sure how well car ratio'd trannys would transfer into a 4wd truck

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

Ouch, it looks nice but 366 is a little more than I paid for the trans! :lol: I think I'll have to see if the guy still has the bellhousing from the diesel.

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

Yeah, the AA pieces are not cheap. Outside of an AA bell housing you have two options:

1992-1995ish bell with the external slave cylinder. The downside is the slave falls on the passenger’s side which can cause interference issues depending on your exhaust configuration (with yours being a 2wd you wouldn’t need to worry about the front driveshaft interference). You would also need a 1992-1995 design clutch master cylinder along with the hose.

1996-2006 bell housing with an internal slave/release bearing assembly. These don’t work well in older trucks as the trans and bellhousing assembly must be stuffed into the truck in one piece. This is an issue being there isn’t room to stuff NV4500 with the bell attached into the truck in one piece unless the engine is out where the trans can be installed through the front then install the engine.

For these reasons is why I went the AA bellhousing. With yours being a C10, a NV3500 would probably be a better trans to use but the bell is part of the transmission assembly where it too can be a hassle to stuff up into an old truck due to clearance. Once it is in there, it is fine….getting it in there is the hard part.

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

The knowledge contained within your noodle amazes me:lol:

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

Larry, with that AA bellhousing, do you have the option of going with mechanical clutch linkage? What are the advantages of a hydraulic clutch anyway?

Also, I'm surprised to hear about your issues with the ZF6. My work truck is an 04 Duramax 2500 HD with a ZF6 and I love it. If I read your posts correctly, you start out in 1st? I never do, I start out in 2nd as 1st is 5.79 or so. So shifting 2-6 is just like driving a regular 5 speed. It is actually the same shift pattern as my 02 Jetta, with the exception of the Jetta missing creeper gear. I wasn't ever thrown too far off by the reverse location of the ZF6 either as I was used to reverse being to the left on my old sm420.

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

Yes, you can use a mechanical clutch with the AA bellhousing, or add the bracket for hydraulic like I did. The bell works with both. The advantage of a hydraulic clutch is that it is easier to step on and they clutch works flawlessly even when the frame is all twisted up while off-roading.

I don’t have issues with the ZF in the Silverado, I just don’t like it. The shift pattern is clumsy and awkward plus the clutch engagement isn’t as smooth as the old trucks. The clutch engagement isn’t the ZF’s fault but more of GM’s pizz poor clutch design on the GMT800 trucks. The clutch works like an on and off switch, with no smooth way to launch the ZF truck. I bought the truck brand new and it has been like this since day 1. The dealer even put a new clutch and slave while it was in warranty to no avail.

I don’t start off in granny gear either. I start off in what you are calling second. The only time I use granny gear (1st on the knob) is when towing very heavy loads or the need to go super slow. One thing I really hate about the ZF is how easy it is to stick in reverse when you are aiming for 1st (second if you go by the letters on the knob) as you roll up to a stop sign. I’ve surprised a few people taking off from a stop in reverse instead of 1st. :lol:

Between the crappy clutch engagement and the awkward shift pattern, I don't care for the ZF in the Silvy. I don't drive it much anyway. In 11 years of ownership it only has 55K miles. I prefer a NV4500 or NV5600 any day over the ZF S6-650

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

Hmm according to the wikipedia article about the zf6, there were some revisions made for the GM version in 2001. Maybe yours was a transition model? On mine there almost feels like a lockout that keeps me from putting it into reverse as opposed to 2nd.

I know what you are saying about the clutch though, I would describe mine as "grabby." That Duramax that I don't need to give it any foot feed when starting from a stop, but if I do, its not smooth at all.

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

So with the AA bellhousing, you used the square-body master cylinder. Do you use the square-body slave cylinder? Did you use a stock clutch hose or did you go with something aftermarket? I believe I priced the stock replacement hose at around $90 which seems kind of high to me.

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

Yes, yes and yes. All were ’85-’91 square body style hydraulic clutch pieces.

NCF 72128 Clutch Master Cylinder $32.59
NCF 73117 Clutch Slave Cylinder $29.99
UP 38559 MC to Slave hose $83.88

These are Napa part numbers. I just ordered all of this stuff again the other day as I am getting ready to do a NV4500 swap in my Suburban over the Christmas break. You're right, the hose is a bit spendy for what it is.

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Have you had chance to look at that transfer case linkage adjustment?

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

On the Burb? Nah, not yet. Had to put an axle shaft and lower control arm in my buddy's daughters Maxima today then play Christmas shopping with the wife so no quality time with the burb today. Maybe tomorrow I'll get a chance to peek at it. It is coming apart next weekend anyway so no biggie.

Re: NV4500 swap is underway
 

I´m running the S6 650 in my truck, a 78 K20... I think it is a great shifting tranny. Better than any other truck manual I´ve drivven before. But Larry is right, you need to pretty much cut out the whole transmision tunnel and fab a new one because this tranny is about 2 to 3" higher than the stock 4 speed...

Was it a lot of work to put it in: YES, youbet. Was it worth it? I would say so as I don´t know many 78 K20s with a 6 speed manual! ;)

I´m happy with the swap.

And to the shift pattern: there is a reason for that. rev. and 1st are in line, so if you back up a trailer and need to go between 1st and reverse a lot you don´t have to switch the gate -> faster shifting. And mine also has a huge resistance to go into the rev./1st gate. you almost have to slam the leaver over to even get into that gate. so going into 2nd to start out is as if there was no gate to the left of it. Seems like you must have a realy early version. Mine is from an 06, so the last year they were offered.

I absolutely love mine behind the 6.2l L92.