Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

TunerPro RT is a popular one that I use. It will data log and allow you to adjust the tune in the programing as well. You will still need a PROM burner to burn the new PROM.

http://www.tunerpro.net/

It comes with the Moates prom burner I have but you can download it for free and donate money to Mark if you like it.

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Blue72

Before getting into ECM tuning (which is another world in itself) I would first get some data logging. As suggested by previous posts you need to get data capture tools in line and running (ALDL cable, Lappy, DC-DC converter, WinALDL or TunerPro-RT). Make sure that you know how to configure program save ECM sensor data to a file. Get setup up and running on your drive way first, then go for some test drives. Thereafter you can do a parametric data analysis on a captured data. Loads of fun - I use Excel to import raw data and for plotting.

//RF

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Jamie, rfmaster, or anyone else......

I am in the middle of a 5.3L Vortec install in my 85, which prior to this had been converted to TBI with parts from a donor 87.

I am trying to find the wire that runs from the firewall to the pumps, the wire that actually powers the fuel pumps. Is it the tan/white wire that comes from the relay that powers the pumps? What about power for the tank selector switch, is it from the same wire?

I have a signal wire that comes from the 5.3's PCM that will turn on a relay. I just need to find the wire that goes to run the pumps now.

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Bob,
On mine it is a grey wire that goes to the fuel pump. I don't know about yours because my donor is car harness.

mike

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

If TBI conversion followed factory layout look for BOSCH style fuel pump relay on the firewall. The tan-white or sometimes gray wire is a switched side of the FP relay. That wire should be 12 or 10 AWG - large diameter wire since any voltage drop results in reduced FP fuel pressure.

The tank switch should be a completely different circuit - I do not have this information handy at this time

//RF

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Exactly the info I needed, thank you very much!!!!

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Hello again all,

Ok, I am finally going to do the TBI swap into my 4x4. I took it to Mt. Blanca over Labor adn that was the last time for the winter. I have time to finally do the swap.

I was going over the parts and forgot where some stuff goes :(

Can you please help me the following:

1)Where does the vacuum tube from the MAP sensor attach to the TBI?

2)Where does the Charcoal Canister hook to the TBI unit

3) Which side of the TBI, Drvier or passanger, is the fuel supply line and which is the return.

4) There is a fitting in the intake located in the intake plenum above the #8 cylinder. It looks like a vacuum hose was attached to it? Do you know where it might go?

5) the vacuum port on the back of the TBI unit labled F. Do you know what goes to this port?


Thanks again for all the great information and I am glad to see that this thread is STILL going.:metal:

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

I may be wrong but I think the Map vacuum hose hooks up to the port on the rear of the tbi in the middle. The fuel inlet is the driver side port. Not sure about your other questions because I have yet to figure them out on our swap yet.

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

I always said that the picture is worth a thousand of explanations. Attached photo is from passenger car TBI (B-Body). TB's used on trucks may not have the AC port, other than that they are the same. VERY IMPORTANT - MAP sensor should be the only device connected to the back side vacuum port, do not use T or hang anything else of that port.

Passenger side fuel side is used for return and driver side is fuel supply from fuel pump. Fuel return is smaller of the two.

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Thanks for the pictures! They really help.

Do you know where the vacuum hose coming off the intake by the #8 cylinder goes? A adapter is threaded into the plenum and I think a vacuum hose attaches to it.

Thanks again.

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

IFRC, that vacuum tap is used for Power Brake booster.


//RF

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Thanks RF.

I know where the vacuum for the power booster screws in, it is under the driver side front of the TBI. The vacuum I am talking about is between the dizzy and the tbi, just over the #8 cylinder intake. It looks like a smaller vacuum hose pushes onto it. There is a tall hex shaped adapter screwed into the intake with a nipple coming off it for a vacuum hose, I think.

I will try to get a picture.

The truck did have cruise controll..could it have been attached to that?


Thanks again.:metal:

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

The only way to answer is to take a look at (if possible ) undisturbed donor or take a look in FSM. Over the years that cyl 8 tap was used for everything but a kitchen sink. For conversion sake you should make sure that there are no vacuum leaks in induction system - the number one headache in speed density (SD) systems since it relies on MAP to provide engine load information to ECM. Quality gaskets, clean, straight matting surfaces are paramount, as well as taking time to put it all together.

//RF

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

I finally got around to doing the conversion.

After getting the intake on I am having trouble installing the Dizzy.

I lined up the dizzy to TDC on the #1 cylinder when I took the old one out. I have the TBI dizzy installed so the rotor is pointing in the same spot as the old dizzy.

The question I have is how does the Dizzy cap go on? Where on the cap should the #1 cylinder wire hook to? does it matter? Is it marke on the cap itself?

Thanks again for the help and I will be posting pictures soon.:metal:

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

If you have #1 at tdc you can make number one where ever you want. I like it in the stock location at about 5 a clock. Then ofcourse run your wires 18436572 clockwise. THis will get you close so you can crank it up. Then set it at o with the bypass unpluged with a timming lite. Good luck.

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Typically that is used for transmission vacuum but it also gets used for power brakes too.

On a high performance engine that pulls minimal vacuum you can actually lean out the #8 cylinder by plumbing power brakes to it.

Run the power brakes from the port on the throttle body.

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

I like the 5 o'clock position as well like it is pointed towards the #1 cylinder.

I always mark the #1 location on the cap and the distributor base with a sharpie so it is easy to see where the rotor needs to point and where the #1 plug wire belongs.

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Hi guys, Almost done with the TBI insatll.

I have a few more questions:

1) B2 gray wire...goes to oil pressure, and fuel pump relay....does it also power the fuel pump?

2) D6 Ground wire...also connects to A12...Book says 02 ground?..Putting in a 4 wire 02 sensor..do I use D6 for the ground?

3) A6 book says "hot in start OR run" where do I run this wire? Fuse? what size fuse?

4) B1 and C16 same orange wire...12 volts? where do I run this wire? Fuse? Size fuse?

5)Where do I run the large pink wire from the top of the coil? Fuse? What size fuse? Do I hook it to the wire that came off the old Dizzy?

6) The instructions with the VSS say to ground it to the ECM....where should I ground it ( what number wire)?

7) C9 puirple wire to small starter terminal...I belive my starter has two small terminals (could be wrong) are they labled? if so which on do I connect C9 to?
What size wire? Fuse? What size fuse?

8) 4 wire 02 sensor (AFS75 AC/Delco)

Wire code on 02 sensor=
A=White
B=Blue
C=Black
D=black

Where on the relay do these wire connect?

My eletrical knowledge is VERY liminted...so please keep all answers as SIMPLE as possible.


Thank you all for keeping this post going:metal:

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Sorry for all the questions about the wiring.....but I really do not know what I am doing....I would welcome any help at all.


Thanks again:metal:

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Ok here are all the pin outs and the color of the wires. My computer is the standard #1227747

A1- grn/wht- this wire is used to power the fuel pump-relay.
A2- no wire
A3- no wire
A4- gry- to egr-relay. This is a ground for the ECM to control the EGR relay.
A5- brn/wht- service soon light. This is a ground to turn on the light.
A6- pink/blk- switched 12v from the ignition relay.
A7- no wire
A8- ornange aldl serial data wire pin-e
A9- wht/blk-aldl pin B When jumpered to ground will set the computer to diagnostic mode.
A10- brn- VSS speed sensor signal to the computer, (This wire I will wire this to on side of a after market VSS sensor and the other wire on the sensor goes to ground).
A11- blk- MAP sensor ground.
A12- blk/wht- System ground. This wire is tied to other grounds in the harness and goes to engine ground.

B1- orn- 12v batt power ( I looked and traced down this wire on my 87 cab harness and this is fuesed I think it was a 15). I will probably use a inline fuse.
B2- tan/wht- Fuel pump signal from the relay. This one ties into several places, the fuel pump, the relay, and the ecm. When the relay is on it sends 12 volts to trun on the fuel pump.
B3- blk/red- Distributor plug
B4- no wire
B5- purple/wht- Distributor plug
B6- no wire
B7- blk- ESC signal This is the knock sensor signal to the computer.
B8- dk grn- AC signal. This tells the ECM that the AC is turned on. I am going to tie this into the ac clutch wire.
B9- no wire
B10-orange/blk- park neutral switch wire. some people say this is optional but I do not think it is because it gives a signal to the computer to give the engine a slight bump in rpm.(if you don't need it why did they put it there?)
B11- no wire
B12- no wire

C1- no wire
C2- brn- wire is not needed
C3-grn/blk- Idle air control
C4-grn/wht- Idle air control
C5-blue/wht- Idle air control
C6-blue/blk- Idle air control C3-C6 all go to the Idle air control valve plug on the TBI it's self.
C7- no wire
C8- no wire
C9- purple/wht-Starter crank signal wire. Goes to the small terminal of the starter.
C10- yel- Temp sender
C11- lt grn- Map sensor
C12- no wire
C13- dk blu- throtle position sensor
C14- gry- signal to map and TPS. ( you will see it tied together in the harness)
C15- on wire
C16- orange- This wire is tied with B1 so it is a 12volt wire

D1- brn/wht- system ground goes to the engine.
D2- blk- tied to the wires for the engine ground.
D3- no wire
D4- wht- distrbutor plug
D5- tan/blk- distrbutor bypass. This is the wire that you disconnect to set your timing.
D6- Tan- O2 sensor ground to engine.
D7- purple- plugs in to the o2 sensor
D8- D13 no wire
D14- grn- Injector plug plugs into the top of injector
D15- no wire
D16- blue- Injector plug plugs into the other injector

Above you will find where I labeled all the pinouts for this computer. It will give you a good idea where all the wires go.

#1 Yes

#2 I tied all the grounds together and Put them on the back of the driverside head with a #8 wire. Then I grounded the motor on the firewall and the frame.

#3 A-6 is switched 12volts from Ignition relay. I also fused this with a 10 amp fuse.

#4 This is basically the same wire they are tied together with in the harness. I used a in line fuable link with a 15 amp fuse in it and ran it to the main Junction on the firewall.

#5 I tied this wire to the stock power wire for the hei dizzy. I did not fuse this.

#6 You can ground it but the computer will think that the truck will be in park at all times and idel high. I left it hanging untill I got a vss sensor from jags that run and installed it then. It will only turn the check engine light on. It might also make the truck die as you come to a stop. (but mine never did)

#7 Same side of the starter that the other sm wires that is on your starter that is there now. This just tells the cpu that the engine is cranking over and to turn the fuel pump relay on.

As for the 4 wire o2 sensor I have not done this but plan on to. I am sure R/F willl chime in and tell you what you need to know about that.

I hope this helps you out. Any more ?'s just ask we will get to you eventually.
Soory for the delay I have been busy.
Good luck, Jamie

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

AC-Delco AFS-75 wire - functional chart

BLUE SIGNAL + ( D7 )
WHITE SIGNAL - ( D6 )
BLACK HEATER
BLACK HEATER

O2 heater draws about 3-4 Amps when cold and drops down as O2 reaches 300C operating temperature. I set up a simple relay circuit that energizes heater whenever ignition is ON. FWIW in modern cars PCM monitors current drawn by the heater circuit. Once current reaches a certain lower limit (some) PCM will shut down heater circuit as PCM logic deems O2 is fully functional, only periodically checking to make certain. PCM will also shut it down at WOT. I have seen numerous explanations why it is done, but for the sake of our application keeping heater circuit that is always ON solves cold header problem that otherwise plagues single wire O2s.

//RF

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Thank you Jamie and RF...

Is this correct:

02 sensor:

One black wire from 02 sensor to ground
One black wire to pin # 87 on relay (purp/blk 10 or 12 AWG)

Relay:

Relay is just like the one in post #219

Pin #86 to ground (blk/yellow 16 or 19 AWG)
Pin #30 to battery w/ 10amp fuse (red 10 or 12 AWG)
Pin #87 to 02 sensor (purp/blk 10 or 12 AWG)
Pin #85 To ingtion hot (brown 16 or 18 AWG)

Also, I do have an aftermarket VSS. The instructions said to ground the vss to the computer. Do I need to do this or ground it to the tranny/t-case/frame?

"A-6 is switched 12volts from Ignition relay" so A6 should only be hot when ingition is on?

Is the stock power wire for the hei dizzy brown with a single white clip on it?

Thanks again for all the help and answering my amature questions:lol:

If I am lucky, it will be running next weekend.:metal:

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

If you run pin #85 on the relay to an output pin on the fuel pump relay it will keep you from overheating the oxygen sensor when the ignition is on but the engine is not running (like when checking codes). The heater will then be turned off when the pump is powered down by the ECM.

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

68 TT has a very good suggestion for a heated O2 circuit! All other connections look reasonable.

Regarding VSS - you can ground one of the two VSS leads at trany. The problem you are relying on ground straps to complete ground return back to ECM. From experience it is usually not a problem provided that all ground straps are in place and you do not have a rust problem.

Good luck tomorrow - let us know!
//RF

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Thanks 68TT for the sugestion.

Can you please tell me what # pin is the output on the fuel pump relay?

I had to replace a MAF sensor on the wifes car, 2002 Pontiac GP, and will be doing a beering/hub assembly, because of a broken ABS wire, Saturday. Hope to get the fuel tank in and the rest of the power and 02 sensor wired Sunday.

I still have to weld a 02 bung into the header....It is getting close.

I hope others are pulling some good info from this thread.

If I read correctly, this is Jamie's first build thread, It is a good one.

Thanks again:metal:

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Getting closer....

Had to order a new sender for the fuel tank, I had a sender for a 40gal tank and I put in a 25gal tank...sender did not fit:lol:

Wired the VSS and SES light along with the ADAL connector.

I pulled the header off today to have the 02 sensor bung welded in.

I still have a question on wiring the 02 sensor

What color is the wire for the output pin on the fuel pump relay?

I would like to wire my 02 sensor how 68TT recomended but do not know what wire from the fuel pump relay to attach to pin #85 on the 02 sensor relay.

I should have the Blazer running next weekend....waiting on parts.

Thanks again for the help:metal:

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Pancake

See circuit diagram below that should answer your wiring questions.
//RF

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/d...od20091011.gif

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

yes...that answers all my questions....Thank you.

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Wow great one this has helped tons thanks guys

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Ok...the wiring is done. I bought a digital voltmeter and played with the relays to figure out how they work.;)

All I am waiting on now is a sending unit for my 25gal tank and I will be ready to fire it up:metal:

Does anyone know of a good place to find fuel line? The stuff for high-pressure systems is like $60.00 for 10 feet of 3/8". I need like 25 feet...:waah:

I do have to use the high-pressure line right?

Thanks again and I will keep you updated:metal:

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

I use the anodized aluminum fuel line from Russell. 25-ft roll is about $30 and it looks really cool too.

Just a few flex points needed with some short lengths of rubber or braided hose. The rest can be hard line that is much cheaper.

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

The red anodized line looks great with the blue fittings but where they are hidden from view you can use much less expensive steel AN fittings.

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

During my conversion I bought a 25' roll of summit 3/8" aluminum tubing with wall thickness of 0.035 - rated for fuel service (SUM-G2538). This stuff is more than enough for common automotive EFI applications. Since they do not mention which Aluminum alloy is used for this tubing, as a point of reference, a 5050-0 temper aluminum tubing with 0.035 wall thickness is used on a large number of light aircraft for wheel brake and gear retract hydraulic systems, and fuel systems and has a yield pressure rating of about 2400 pSI.

When working with aluminum tubing use bending tools to achieve correct bend radius and prevent tubing collapse.

//RF

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

On our tbi project I used the 50psi rated hose from autozone. It was around $4 a ft I think.

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Yea, tbi is only about 15psi MAX so about anything is fine.

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

Ok...i found the 3/8" aluminum tubing at summit and Jegs...and it is much cheaper than rubber hose.

Question:

Do I need to get an assortment on AN fittings to connect rubber hose to aluminum tubing and then to the fittings on the TBI and fuel tank....

or....can I flare the old supply and return lines and clamp it to the rubber tubing and clamp the rubber tubing to the aluminum tubing?

Option two would be less expensive but would it be safe?

The last thing I want is to be stranded on the mountain or have a fuel line break and start a fire:smoke:


Thanks again.....Pancake

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

To connect rubber hose (SAE 30R7, 30R9) to 3/8" AL tubing you need to 'bead' AL tubing. This is a must since there is nothing to keep rubber hose from sliding of the end of the AL tubing, but a bead will keep it in place. Forming a bead is easy with a right tool. If you are planning to work only with 3/8" tubing than Earl's EZ-BEADER will produces a correct bead per SAE requirements. Look for Earl's part number 008ERL which is designed to bead 3/8" tubing.

If you are planning to do other tube diameters you can purchase additional EZ-EADERs from Earl or go with professional (pricey, but very nice) ATS Tube Beading Kit. I hate to admit, but I am a tool freak. Sorry, it is a weakness ;)

As far as safety is concerned. Fuel supply line must be built to withstand up to 50 PSI. The reason for this is that most TBI service rated pumps are capable of 20 to 40 PSI deadhead. Fuel supply must be either AL tuning (0.035 is good) or -6 size braided fuel line. I used both in my conversion since I had -6 line on hand and later I picked up the spool of 3/8" AL tubing.

Beading tool is a must if you plan to attach 3/8" rubber hose to a fuel line. Otherwise plan to spend on -6AN adapters and hose ends.

//RF

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

ok....I can get a tubing beader for the AL tubing...but what about the steel hard tubing that is stock on the TBI and fuel sending unit? Can I just flare this tubing so the rubber hose does not slip off?

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

EARLS should be able to handle AL and soft steel used for OE fuel system, but not SS tubing.

//RF

Re: Tbi swap build thread
 

IT LIVES....


Got the truck started today..

It runs but not very well....

It is putting out two codes:

Code 44 and code 42

Code 42 is interminted....sometimes it will show...sometimes it wont.

Code 44 is constant

I did set the timing at 0 TDC with the pin unpluged..

It will idel up then down then up then down ect...and it is backfiring through the exaust.

The injectors also seem to be makin a loud clicking noise...almost like the sound a bad lifter makes. Don't know if this is related.

Any input would help...thanks again for all the help.