Questions RE future of hobby
 

So after getting a quote for body and paint it left me wondering what is going to happen to our love of cars and the future price. My quote was for 7500.00 which I couldn't afford for one but thought was to high for another. So I decided to do it myself and went out and spent 1500- 2000.00 on all the tools and material , bondo, sand paper etc. and started to learn how to do it. I probably have 200+ hours in welding in floors and patch panels etc and I realized that 7500 was actually not very much money. I don't or won't work for free and can't expect a body guy to either. Where does that leave us, quality restorations will cost upwards of 10K and for good reason. A shop rate of 50.00 an hour and that is only 200 hours worth of work not including the 3K for materials. There will always be the Macco's or Earl Scheibs but I am talking good old American craftsmanship and jobs where people take pride and do it right. I think the problem is kids don't want to work anymore so we have lost the pre apprentice workers that used to do all the blocking and sanding. I think 2 things are going to happen, the prices of finished quality vehicles will go up or the industry will die. There is only so many guys that will take on painting and bodywork on there own stuff so where does that leave the everyone else. I bet my suburban now to repaint would be over 10K and it was rust free. Am I just out of touch because of where I live or is there a place in the country where I can drop of a truck and have it finished for 5K, I would like to know.

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

I think your right on the money on all of your points. My son and I painted his truck in the garage and small stuff in my backyard shop. A lot of folks that want to be in the hobby don't these options. This may be a reason that the "rats" are growing. Not that I have anything against rats. I doesn't suite some peoples' tastes. I've been thinking about that route next time. No place I know of where you can get a restoration paint job for 5k.

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

Also, keep in mind that if he's charging $50 an hour, he's barely making 25 an hour. That's just for his labor alone. And that's if he does all the work himself - no employees.

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

Yah hit the nail on the head for skilled services.

As for the industry. No worries. Thousands of disassembled trucks are for sale as the youngins start with grand ideas, no budget and no plan. They simply tear it downand box it for us. For the remainder of our lives and more well have access to these all to regular epic fails as a source of restorable iron. Yer kids will be rodding 95-05 bow ties though.

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

Interesting topic LT1 Burb! My sister and brother-in-law have owned a body shop since 1976 and will only do collision work these days. A very good friend of mine has a speciality shop that does antique and classic vehicles. It boils down to supply and demand, Everything cost more these days. I agree that 10K paint vs Patina or a rat finish might derail someone's restoration path too. I dont think that kids dont want to work anymore and I see alot of them getting into hot rodding. Restoring vintage vehicles is expensive these days!! p.s. this thread will probably get moved

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

Patina trucks are looking better all the time. I was just working on my 1947 street rod show car and had to put several towels and fender covers on the fender so afraid of scratching it . Don't had to worry while working on these old original paint 66s lay you tools on the paint alot more fun.

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

I started at 11 years old how to work on cars. My mom gave me a model a ford for my birthday. I learned the hard way I had no money to pay for someone to fix it. I swept floors and cleaned parts at a body shop and watched and learned. I wanted a hot rod my way. I have learned how to do it all and when it is done I cant ***** that the body shop or the mechanic did it wrong. Labor prices are high so are parts & paint. NO body wants to work for free. When the car is finished you enjoy it or sell it. When you sell the buyer wants the best deal. The old saying speed costs money how fast do you want to go

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

I don't know the answer. My quote, from what is considered the best paint & body shop in my town, was $8,450. I went through the quote and realized that I could shave off about $2,800 in labor if I delivered it with all of the trim removed and the bed and cab separate. I actually think that brings the cost down to a figure that's reasonable, given the industry, but that's still way more than I can spend right now.

There's another guy in town that is big in the hobby and helps guys (for a fee) do the paint and body work in his own shop. I'm in the queue for that, which will save me some money, but also help me to learn the craft. I figured at least I can pay it forward some time. His backlog is about 15 months, but I'm in no hurry.

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

I largely agree except for a few points;
There isn't a lack of apprentices, there is a lack of shops wanting to hire apprentices. Kids don't think there is a future in the skilled work, largely because shop owners just used them up. The only "successful" younger people I ever met in hot rodding ALL quit there first shop to start one, or maybe build a resume to work for a bigger shop. I never see the older guys pass a shop, or the REAL skills. Sure, they'll have you sand 10hrs a day...yet resist teaching you metal forming, since you'll become competition for their aging shop.
Those same shop owners usually hire illegals to sand, pay them 7$ an hour, and fire them when anyone asks questions or they want health insurance.

On the other note; even 75-8500$ for a paint job isn't the top end of the market anymore. Sema/Riddler type cars have well over 20k into paint, including painting goofy stuff like brackets you'll never see.

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

I don't think our hobby will "die", it will always endure in some form or fashion. We all adapt and grow with what is available, popular, affordable, fashionable, whatever. Perhaps a bit like the rat rod era, which very well may have been driven by some of the factors we are addressing now, again? :uhmk:

Maybe some of the same issues that drove enthusiasts in the 40-50's to build what they did...working with what was available and affordable (no billet :lol:)

Now I like my fair share of shiny, but I can't afford the pretty paint now or maybe ever! We're running our burb the way it is because we can enjoy it right now, while we modify/work on it and learn what it takes to take it to another level. We will eventually paint it, but will probably do it ourselves after we (my boy :lol:) learns how! It's a skill we (he) would like to be marginally competent at :uhmk:.

I don't know whether we get more enjoyment out of learning and building things or finishing and running them...I really think probably the first, it would explain why they're never finished?? ;) :lol:

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

great topic, i bought my 65 swb bbw stepper in 98' for $2500 a complete truck with rust in the same spots as most, but not a basket case by any means, but a giod driver. i turned it into a complete resto, every nut, bolt and washer. well i started my career had a couple of kids. now many yrs later im mostly done. i saved money doing most work myself. rust repair, bodywork, redoing my original harness and the like, the chrome i had to source. anyway my issue is with the higher prices of NOS and OEM parts i've been stashing parts for many yrs and when i started in 98' the parts werent as easy to get, but were fairly cheap. fast forward to now the prices have gone thru the roof, good thing i got on it hardcore last year. so if your not willing to put in the grunt work it and spend hrs searching for parts. good luck. a sweet ride can be had, but at what price... ps i hope it doesnt knock new people out of the hobby i love, and hate at the same time.

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

This thread should stay right where its at and get the most exposure. It is a very good topic which directly affects OUR hobby and this forum.

LT1burb and BR3W CITY hit the perverbial nail on the head. As the manager of a large Dealership body shop, restoring cars myself and owning a shop for a few years I can also ad that block sanding sucks and kills the desire to rottessery restore a vehicle for yourself. Now have someone ask how much for you to do thiers and the problem we are experiencing grows. I can also add that after we have stopped doing complete paints and restoration's, only focusing on spot repairs and collision work, we have increased sales by 18% each year over the last 2 years and that has directly increased the employees take home checks. Unless your shop only specializes in completes and restoration's, you either over bid and scare the customer or underbid and kill the proffit or cheat the tech. I am sure demographics play into it too. Shops in LA, Miami, Nebraska and sleepy little NW towns like mine are vastly different, but at the end of the day its still a dirty job that takes great skill and patience, a true craft.

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

I really hope this does not get moved into some place of purgatory.

These discussions are all valid and help motivate, and teach us about progressing with our hobby.

I would love to have a huge thick wallet to rebuild my truck, but instead I will trade skills with other people, as C10's are few and far between in the UK.

The other thing is that I am always prepared to give stuff a go.

I do agree though that the prep for paint etc is hugely time consuming, even for the pro's

That said, I did a 1963 VW Beetle years ago, with zero experience and the bodywork took me 12 hrs a day, 7 days a week for three weeks.
Which means it took me around 250 hrs in the garage, plust some time to dismantle, reassemble and also polish some bits at home at night.

Would I do it for a living? Not a chance, would I love to do it for a decent remuneration? Absolutely.

Regarding the future, I think the skills will become less, but hopefully there will always someone teaching. I find forums a perfect place to do this.

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

We had this same discussion on a Street Rod forum I belong to. Some of the guy's are afraid our Hobby is on it's Death Bed! I disagree I think it's evolving and will change to suit the people involved. Some people are content to not do any paint and run with the "Patina" that seems to be popular in a few area's. I grew up in a different time and want my rides to Shine and Sparkle. Our problem is we have to be tolerant of the different views and ideas that people are doing to THEIR trucks. I strive to make my trucks safe to drive first, then I make sure they run good-Then I worry about the looks. As long as we welcome everybody regardless of their ways our hobby will grow.

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

My frame off restoration on my 72 Chevy truck is almost finished after almost 3 years and an original budget of $5000 .I think there will always be a hobby with cars and trucks ,it may just take longer to get them done as the cost is crazy. I was talking with the shop guys today and they were talking about how high materials had gotten and how some customers didnt believe him when he told them how much paint ,thinner, clear ,sand paper etc was .Im way over my original budget but I have added Vintage Air and a few other things not in the original plans but I will have a very nice truck. This shop is a regular bodyshop that does restorations when they are slow but their attention to detail is amazing . A lot of shops would love to do nothing but restorations but insurance work pays the bills and a lot of wait time on some parts does not help as well as making some parts fit.

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

It's all relative.....a fully restored truck from our era was 10K....stupid $!! Remember when you saw 67-69 Camaros in the junk yard??

I always like the fact if I find something wrong that I did at least I didn't pay for it! Nothing worse than paying for mistakes.

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

I just think gone are the days of nice trucks for 10k and really one can't blink an eye if the price is 15-20k. I mean you can't build a truck for that anymore, there is very few shops here that will touch a restoration. They just do insurance jobs and make more money in less time, simple economics really. When I see high prices it really doesn't surprise me, they deservedly should be.

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

It's nearly impossible to find young guys that want to work in the restoration shops. I'm 26 and don't know of anyone my age or younger that's working in any of the local shops.

The cars/trucks being restored are also getting older every year and needing more and more work to be restored properly- another reason that it cost so much to restore one these days. We're over 1400 hours in the '66 F100 in the shop now for a rotisserie restoration, and still have a ton of work left to finish it.

There are a few young guys around here that are into older cars but most are into modern muscle. No one doing full builds under 30 years old. There is one guy my age that has a '68 Camaro that's he's been slowly working on for the last few years. It costs so much that like posted earlier, it just takes longer to save up enough to finish it. I'll have atleast 25K in Goldilocks and that's without doing any paint/bodywork, and doing all the other work myself.

I will say that there is a ton of negativity that goes with choosing this line of work that can prevent kids/young guys away from doing restoration work for a living. I wanted to do this since I was a kid, and I caught a ton of grief about it while growing up from teachers and even family members. I was constantly told that it wasn't a "prominent" or white-collar job and "there's no future in it"... so I see that as one reason that there aren't as many younger people in the hobby. Society thinks that a four year degree automatically grants you a high paying/secure job and that's just not the case these days. It does guarantee years of student loans though, something I've never had since tech was relatively inexpensive.



As far as skill level goes, compare what the under 30-35 crowd was building back in the 40's/50's/60's to what's being built today by the same age group... :lol:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...te/pic1-84.jpg

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/q...Hot_Rods/2.jpg

http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/t...window1949.jpg

http://image.hotrod.com/f/whereitbeg...ember_1950.jpg




VS



http://media.urbandictionary.com/ima...ricer-7287.jpg

http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/CtK4949/RicerXtreme.jpg

http://www.counter-strike.com/news/w...ssan-ricer.jpg

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

I know for sure that theastronaut will never be out of work as long as he has fingers and toes. His work is wonderful. He takes pride in his craft. But like he said, at his age of 26, he's an exception to the rule.

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

I think it still has a chance to be a reasonable investment, as long as the likes of most here hang around on these type message boards. Some great people here who share their knowledge with people like me. I'm a decent mechanic but I have never done body work. Afraid as all get out but looking at this forum everyday, I've come to the conclusion that I may never achieve the trucks of the many masters here but I can build one I can learn from and be proud of what I have accomplished. Thanks to all the great guys here who share their knowledge and time to help.

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

I think the one-three man shops will be doing the medium builds. Local car show quality no mirrors under the car stuff. I've just opened a shop in my area and even with my low overhead its hard starting out. Material costs are the killer for me. Just finished a 66 C-10 late 70's early 80's styling. For cost reasons the rails and engine bay were painted enamel gloss black, the interior was urethane metalic gray, and the truck was epoxy black primer with no body work. Then cut #2 pine for the bed floor. My fee $3000.00 for labor and materials and he spent another 1000-1800.00 on bumpers seals and other stuff. Not to mention rebuilding his own motor and doing his own brakes and lines he's around 10K and the outside isnt even painted. I had an older guy come by and wanted his tractor repainted, he went through the list of stuff he wanted and I said 2-3k he looked floored. Went through the material pricing and labor to disassemble and etc.. I think he thought you could still get one done for 5-6 hundred.

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

I heard from a very reliable source that Charley Hutton charged $125,000 to paint the '40 Ford that won the Ridler last year. I'm 100% serious.

The cost of materials have skyrocketed, and good paint costs lots of money. It's very easy to have $2,000 in materials alone for a very basic solid color paint job.

It's hard work, and it's takes a ton of labor and time to get a car straight. The high-end paint shops charge between $75 and $100 an hour, and that adds up quickly. Just remember, a good paint job isn't cheap, and a cheap paint isn't good.

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

That almost sounds cheap for that level of work. EVERY square inch of everything painted would have to be 100% perfect, even one fish eye means you start over and re-clear that panel. Then to wetsand and buff EVERY square inch... Nothing can have swirl marks, ripples, distortion in the bodywork, can't have any tracking marks from improper sanding patterns... You'd need 25k worth of therapy and medication just from the stress of having to get it perfect!!

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

The truck college post got me thinking. It seems like years ago kids learned stuff like how to work with their hands from their fathers. This may have prepared them with the grade school (or more) skills needed to work on a car/truck/bike and somewhat intuitively know some things.

I learned by driving $100-250 cars and keeping them running, not by being taught, but there's more than one way. Needless to say that was a few years ago. EFI probably makes it a bit tougher now.

As far as vehicles being an investment goes, investments are usually hoped to gain value versus cost and labor. Vehicles rarely fit the mold unless you're in the business. Sadly, I seem to be in the business of making other's investments grow :(

There were simply so many of these trucks made that they aren't rare.

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

A friend owns a true restoration shop. The majority of his work is auction cars and the Corvette crowd, or cars in excess of $50-75,000 value and up to $150,000+. Most of his cars come in as a shell on a rotisserie or just sheet metal on a frame. They go back out with killer paint, panels aligned, etc. but final assembly is rarely done in house. They do a very small amount of insurance work to fill in some schedule gaps. His waiting list is 3-5 YEARS.

He picks his clients, takes money up front, turns work FAST and doesn't cut corners. His shop rate is somewhere around $100/hr and they regularly do single jobs in excess of $40k. With all of that said, he makes a living. Not a killing, but an honest living. There is no money in dis-assembly, re-assembly, parts chasing, etc. If he were to do only work that guys like us could afford, he wouldn't make it. I can do my own prep, spiff him a few hundred for materials and use of the booth and lay some paint myself, but even then I risk getting in the way of a working business.

An idea that my Dad and I have kicked around for years, which I think came from his growing up on military bases, is hobby shop rental. I know there is a new one somewhere on the Kansas side of KC where you can get use of a sand blasting room and equipment, dis-assembly areas, paint areas, and general mechanic areas for different rates and I think it's membership based. Killer idea, but my guess is the business model doesn't bring home much bacon, however I'd like to see it work!

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

Astronaut hit on the head, our society. he's young and is exception to do this work. there are some young men on this form that are really talented, and doing great work also, from the looks of there trucks. probably didn't stay in the house and play video games all day. It really comes down to $$$ I guess, some have more than others to spend. funny, I'm 64 and still doing my own work---still waiting to hit the lotto!

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

My 66 GMC is the first vehicle we have ever built from the frame up. I have run shops for years (truck equipment) so I know that labor can really sneak up on you. I had 2 guys who were very good at mechanical and body work. Things were very slow in our business so we all 3 tore into my 66 when we had the time. Due to information on this board and other experience over the years I think we built my truck about as inexpensively as it can be done even when charging labor against the truck at cost. I have been afraid to add it all up but felt that $20,000.00 is the cost of my build. After attempting to do body work I will tell you that it is Chinese water torture ! I am not cut out for it, cause their is no stopping point, after starting over for the 7th time on one fender, I had enough. The reason for the high cost of body work is simply you only get the results by experience and hours and hours of labor.
My 66 has 13,000 miles on it now and I really am glad we built it as a driver. If you build It as a show winner you can only look at it.
If its cheaper to buy a finished truck, but knowing what you accomplished and that you determined how well it was to be done. I will build another even though it probably will not ever bring the $'s back we have in them.
That is why the hobby will not die off.....Kieth :waah: :gmc2:

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

Good thread topic, and lots of interesting input. The future of our hobby, like the future in general, is uncertain. Labor costs and material costs are just two factors among many putting pressure toward change. Here in SO CA, the various pro-environment agencies have all but strangled the old-school approach of building a vehicle for fun. The business of chrome plating for example, has essentially been driven away from this area. Surviving area platers must now charge an arm and leg just to stay in the game. This environmental trend is spreading (for good reason), and will soon affect everyone, everywhere, if it hasn't already.
For better or worse, change is also due to factors WITHIN our hobby. Obviously, popular trends affect affordability. As demand grows for a particular model and values increase, the resulting outcome is that the average guy is often eliminated from participating.
Fifteen years ago, could you have ever imagined ANY Volkswagon microbus selling for over a hundred grand?? I have a friend who collected literally dozens and dozens of these goofy buses when they cost one or two hundred each. He is now selling them off for many thousands apeice, mainly because, as he says, "the simple joy is gone".

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

Is Earl Scheibs Still in business? He used to paint a car for $29.95. In buy 9 out by 5.

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

one of the main reasons I went towards the chevy trucks.....love classics and prices for restorations and vehicles are out of this world now.


Chevy trucks look great original!! nice wheels ...put a nice running engine....lower it and go.

Everyone calls it the patina phase but to me a truck is a workhorse and should look used and be able to be used and not afraid to scratch it.

Just went to Turlock Swap Meet last weekend and the crowds were great!! I love to see that there are still a lot of people out there that love this hobby.

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

Not surprising at all. Its the era when a Union Plumber has a billed rate of $109/hr, so seeing shop labor at $80+ per hr doesn't surprise me, let alone for a high end build.

$2k for materials in CA sounds about right, we get it a tad cheaper since there isn't the EPA stuff to deal with here.

Slight side note; I'm interested to work with the water-based stuff thats CA compliant but haven't had a chance yet.

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

I plan on doing and learning bodywork on my truck. I learned from my dad how to do a lot of the mechanical stuff. he had plenty of money but always did almost everything himself. I have passed that down to my sons and they do it all them selves and they have a friend who went to school and is ASE certified in just about everything. Someone mentioned the do it yourself shops. There are plenty out there for mechanical work but not a lot for body and paint. I see a few popping up that rent a booth and gun so at least thats coming around. As far as the hobby dying, I dont think it will die but it will change. My oldest son is still into rice burners and my next oldest is more into swapping a Cummins into anything that will take it. At least thats something.

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

I'm pretty new to the hobby. One thing that I noticed is that classic car shows seem to emphasize the "finished product". All the fine work (a.k.a. high $$ investment): old guys, lots of money, lots of time - no offense to anyone, but not much I could relate to.

Even the hot rod magazines ...."we just took it over to such-n-such a shop and had them redo the whole this-n-that"....check that such-n-such shop's website to find that the work was likely in the $10K range. Not very realistic for me.

I wonder if it wouldn't be nice to see more "starting out", "in progress" and "daily driver" entries at car shows. Maybe that's more the definition of this site (and others) than of a car show - but gee, to talk with the fella that's teaching himself, to hear about a budget I might could afford and think "dang, I could do that after all" - there's the beginner's inspiration IMO.

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

i'm one of those just starting out guys though i"ve been in the hobby my whole life. it was through necessity that i started doing body and paint. i built a suburban years ago and took it to a reputable restoration shop who did a horrible job on the paint, never setup. you could leave a fingerprint after a year of curing. then the next shop scrapped it all off, sanded and painted a slightly different color than original. nether shop would stand behind their work so with no other options, i undertook it myself. turned out fine. since then i've painted quite a few more and honestly i like doing it. i may be sick but theres a big reward taking something rough and making something beautiful and the reward isn't big profit, its just a satisfying living and the satisfaction is what you make it.

now we've got 3 part-time employees, older guys that need the work. we give reasonable quotes, we do lots of piece work on other peoples trucks and have a couple of current builds going. one of which is a patina job...

as far as the hobby goes... theres not a threat. its gonna last as long as we keep fixing up our trucks. and we each have a level of completion we're satisfied with and a level of competence to get us there. and by the way... the bartering system is alive and well. if you build me a bagged chassis, i'll paint your truck... you overhaul this trans and i will fix that fender... deal...?

its a time and materials world. how much do you value your time and how much is the markup on already expensive materials. one thing is for sure, if you find honorable shops for your paint and body... you'll get what you pay for.

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

100% with you.

The reward of a job well done is satisfaction you cannot buy and nobody can take from you.

I simply cannot afford to pay for the work my truck needs, so bartering and self service it will be.

Long may we derive pleasure and joy from our toys.

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

I have been in the motorsports industry all my life ( I include this hobby in the motorsports industry). When I started out at a young age there were more young guys willing to work and lots of talented ones as well. Now 40 years later you can't find anyone that is willing to do what is necessary to become an accomplished gear head.
Look around at the races, car shows, flea markets, cruise nights and you don't see much representation from the younger set.

Sorry to say that it may very well be a dying hobby.

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

I saw this thread and I've actually wondered the same things you all have. I'm one of those guys here with not so many years under his belt (22) and I've gotta say, it's just tough to get started. I used to drive 2004 Subaru Impreza WRX STi, which is an awesome car. That thing could turn on a dime and really snap your neck from a dig! My first encounter with working on it was putting a set of coilovers on and some spacers. I had a blast! BUT I needed the help from a friend who had
A. done it before
B. had the right tools.


For me, my 66' is where I really want to start learning all of this. The problem is time, money, know-how, and tools. I'm a full-time Architecture student, which really gives me little free time. Sleeping more than 4-5 hours a night during the school week is challenge enough. Honestly, it's just a little terrifying to start really doing work on my truck. Also, I have no clue where to find someone who can help who knows all of this stuff and "mentor" me. It's part of the reason I'm here. There is so much knowledge here and I'm so glad it's all being shared, because otherwise, I'd just be lost.

Anyway, just thought I'd give you another young guy's perspective. I will have to agree, though, there aren't many of us out there. I have a handful of friends who share my interest of working on our cars/trucks/bikes, but most of young people see a car as simply a way to get from A to B. You guys keep me inspired and I'm doing my best to become a real "Gear Head":metal:

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

Thanks Sean C for the input and the perspective.

Re: Questions RE future of hobby
 

Too bad you aren't near me. I would be happy to have you around my shop !