Starting a new build...
 

Hello,

I'm new to this forum and I can see that there is a lot of knowledge to be sought here. So, I decided I'm going to take advantage of it with my next build.

I am going to start a 53 5 window 3100. I want to make it a daily driver/sleeper pickup with modern drivetrain and suspension. I have been looking into chassis modifications/swaps and have decided that I'd like best to keep the original chassis but install a better suspension. I have been doing some research and have come across the Art Morrison Truck Front & Rear Suspension Kits (page 44- http://www.artmorrison.com/2006cat/2014catalog.pdf ). I think if functional, this would be a very cool thing to do just because I could keep the original chassis.

I was wanting to get a few opinions on the matter. Any first hand experience with these kits?

Thank y'all for your time.

Re: Starting a new build...
 

I think you would be extremely happy with Art Morrison components. Probably a little pricey for most. I like the fact that you want to use the original frame.

Re: Starting a new build...
 

Thank you for the reply.

My plan is to go with an LS crate engine. Do you think with a bit of reinforcement the stock chassis will be able to handle the added torque? Apparently this is a big concern with some people. I was wondering if this should be a real concern.

Re: Starting a new build...
 

I think you will need to box the frame quite a bit if not completely. Your talking about 3 times the power if not more. There's tons of threads on here that have LS installs. Check some of them out and see what they did to their frames. I'm fully boxing mine and I'm installing a LT1 with about 280 HP.

Re: Starting a new build...
 

I'd think it might be more than wise to box the frame but that might be a real good question to pose to the Morrison tech folks when you talk them about the suspension. I haven't bought anything from them but have talked to their guys in their booths and displays at car shows here in the PNW a few times and they are pretty knowledgeable and all that work there that I have met are serious car and truck folks themselves.

Re: Starting a new build...
 

morrison builds quality stuff and it's big dollar stuff! 10K for a chassis is crazy but it's your money!

Re: Starting a new build...
 

You would be better off purchasing a front IFS kit from Scott's Hot Rods. They have both weld on and bolt on kits for far less money. That way you get to keep your '53 frame. I installed a bolt on kit and with most bolt on kit designs boxing is unnecessary. My 350 has over 300 horses and there has never been a problem. I Do plan on adding front and rear torsion bars for stability. Since I am not interested in drag racing and have no need to hook up the rear wheels, I decide not to use a 4 link rear suspension system.

Re: Starting a new build...
 

Well, the 53 fell through so instead I bought a 51. I am pretty happy with the find! The cab is SOLID. Haven't had an opportunity to take a whole lot of pictures yet so I'll have to reserve that for my next day off. I was able to snap one on the ride home and one just as I was able to get things unloaded.

http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/t...psigvlqteo.jpg

The ride home... Truck in a box. I guess the good thing is that he did all the hard work in pulling it apart for me!

http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/t...psxbefahf2.jpg

First project is suspension. I'm pretty sure I'd like to go with the front sport suspension from Art Morrison. I was looking around and found the Flat Out Engineering corvette IRS kit. Has anyone ever thought of mixing these components? Good idea/ bad idea? Let me know what you all think.

Can anyone tell me what kind of ride height I might be able to get out of a set up like this without further modifying the chassis? I'd like it to be a static 6 inches.

Re: Starting a new build...
 

Why not Vette front and rear?

Re: Starting a new build...
 

I don't know, I was looking at quite a few builds from members here on the forum who have done similar things and the front suspensions look as if they require quite a bit of notching. Other than the small notch on the bottom of the frame for the rack and pinion, it looks as though the needed to make some room for the upper control arms as well. They did a fantastic job on their builds but it just seems like a lot of additional work when compared to the Art Morison kit.

Re: Starting a new build...
 

Progressive Automotive makes a Vette cross member that installs like the Art Morison cross member and doesn't require such a big notch in the frame for the rack. They use a different rack where as Flatout uses the Vette rack. Using a Vette rack requires a larger notch in the frame because the rack is positioned higher up on the cross member.

The Art Morison and Progressive cross members may require less frame work to install but the Flatout cross member comes completely welded up, square etc but requires a bit more frame work to install. 6 of one half a dozen of the other I guess.

It's just my opinion but all three would be great choices but you'd be money ahead using Vette parts. Part of your decision will be how much work do you want to put into installing either parts. Morison will be weld in cross member and install new parts. Vette parts will require cleaning and possibly installing new bearings, tie rods ends etc.

Re: Starting a new build...
 

I believe the Art Morrison IFS comes welded up as well in the way you said the Flat Out system does. I only know this due to an article I was reading on the kit.

http://www.customclassictrucks.com/t...p_truck_build/

It just seemed easy in comparison to the Flat Out kit as I remember someone posting before that the instructions left a bit to be desired. Though, I really can't argue with you stating that I'd be coming out ahead on the cost... I guess I'll have to make some additional considerations...

As far as handling goes, do you think they would be similar or would I possibly have a little more out of one over the other? My only rational was that with the AME kit, I may have a little better geometry as that kit was designed for this chassis were as with the vette, I'm simply doing a retrofit. I was thinking the front suspension would be a bit more sensitive to that issue over the rear.

I don't know, maybe I'm overthinking it...

Re: Starting a new build...
 

I have a 53 with the flatout kit. Front bumper is 5 1/2" off the ground. Rides and handles good.

Re: Starting a new build...
 

The only thing I had to replace on my 1953 3100 was the entire bed because most of the original beds are pretty beat up. I also used a bolt on Mustang II bolt on front suspension from Chassis Engineering and it went on without a hitch. Very easy to attach. No welding required and no boxing required as well. You make one measurement on each side and the system is lined up perfect. If you drill the front top hole at the precise measurement given there is no way the system will be anything else but perfect. We marked the spots to drill and made several measurements to all areas of the truck and found out every one was dead on perfect. Then we drilled. The instructions are very easy to read and they are very thorough. If I had to do it over again I would use it again but I would also look at the system Justin has at Scott's Hot Rods. I was not aware that Scott's Hot Rods sold these units until I became a member on here. I would probably go with his system simply because I like to purchase products from people who are friends as well as people who I am acquainted with on sites like this. The fact is I had ordered most of my parts before I ever looked at this site. I wish I had waited and ordered all of my parts from Justin. So, do yourself a favor and go to his site and see what he has. I know you will like like what you see. I did order my Gotta Show hoses from him and I will tell you that they are much more cordial to work with than most of the people at the other companies. Most of them I have dealt with had personalities like Zombies. This was not the case with Justin and his crew at Scott's Hot Rods. Hey, I just wrote a commercial. I have included a couple of photos showing how simple it is to attach this suspension system. If you would like I will take a picture of the completed front end and post it. I used 8 inch AR wheels on the rear and 7 inch AR wheels on the front. The rear tires are 255 70 15 and the front tires are 225 70 15. The truck has a 2 inch rake from back to front. I love the stance.

Re: Starting a new build...
 

Is the back of the frame bent, or is it just a weird angle showing the axle hump?
Might be pre '51. Can't tell for sure, but it looks like single pane windows in the doors, unless they have been converted.

Re: Starting a new build...
 

Have you thought about just contacting morrison for a complete new frame?

If you are already looking to update the front & rear suspension- their complete frames with brakes & differential actually wind up being pretty cost effective if you think about all the time and $$ spend buying the various pieces and getting it all done- unless you are planning on doing all the work yourself and can consider your labor and time as free.

Just a thought.

Re: Starting a new build...
 

The Art Morison cross member requires you to weld the UCA mounts on top of the frame rails and are separate from the main cross member. Same with Progressive. Flatout's is one piece. I have s set of instructions and they are fine. I mean I can understand them.

My understanding is that the truck will weigh about the same as a C4 and is pretty close in wheel base. I figured that GM spent gobs of money on R&D for that suspension and it works very well. So I thought "why reinvent the wheel". I know nothing about AM's geometry so can't really comment if one is better than the other. I have my opinions.....

I chose C4 IFS and IRS parts and built my own cross member from measuring my stock C4 cross member and some help.

Pick what ever you like the best. It's your truck and money so do as you please. I hope what I have mentioned just better informs you.

Re: Starting a new build...
 

I have seen S10 frames used but the ones I have seen I did not like. I waned to keep the original frame because I wanted as much of the truck original as I could. But at the same time I wanted the ride, steering and braking to be like a new vehicle as well as the power of a 350 engine. The outside is as it was in 1953 (minus the side vents and cowl vent). Originality and comfort was my moto. I agree in that the entire frame conversion is a great way to go if you can afford it. It is, however, much more costly than the route I took. DEven with using the Mustang II front, and the Camaro differential, etc. my cost was half of what an entire frame would have cost. Another option is to use a Camaro front clip. There are a lot of great articles on how to do this. In the end it all depends on what you want and how much you have to spend. Another much cheaper and easier solution is to buy a Rack & Pinion steering system that will mount to your straight axle. I think either Brothers or CPP sells this along with all the parts needed to give your vehicle power disc brakes.

Re: Starting a new build...
 

I think it might be the angle... That I've somehow repeated nearly identically in each picture.

As for the doors... That's interesting you asked that. I asked the same question when I was looking to purchase the truck. It didn't bother me that they were single pane as I wanted to convert that anyway. Apparently the lady that the truck was purchased from originally claimed that when the truck was ordered, being that it was towards the end of the war, GM was running low on supplies and had to send her doors from the previous year model. Now, I'm not entirely sure how accurate that story is but man do I hope it's true. That would be a pretty neat little piece of history with the truck if it were.

Re: Starting a new build...
 

When you went with the c4, how limited were you when it came to wheel size? I'd like to shoot for a 10 inch in the rear but it looks as though some of the components for the rear suspension may limit me in this aspect just because they are hanging outside the frame rails.

Re: Starting a new build...
 

Check out this thread. Stockish is using a C4 IRS and has posted what rims and tires he is using. A bit of other info from others on what worked for them. I don't have mine yet but am looking for the same as Stockish is using.

Re: Starting a new build...
 

Well... I guess you have convinced me! I think I'm going to go with both front and rear from Flat Out. I feel that I have skills comparable to that of Stockish so I think I'll purchase rather than build my own.

The only thing I started worrying about was the diff's ability to hold. My current plan is to run with a 376/480 LS crate from GM. Obviously the c4 did not come with that many horses so I began to worry. Well, I started looking into it some more and apparently Dodge has been using the 44 in their Vipers for quite some time now. Starting in 2003 the Viper came from the manufacture with over 500 horses and they still used the same diff. Obviously, that was probably at the flywheel and not the wheels but then again, the engine I'd like to go with puts 480 to the flywheel so in theory I should be good...

Please feel free to chime in and correct any errors in my logic.

My next question is with modifying the OEM chassis as absolutely little as possible (other than boxing the frame and adding additional support to strengthen it) what kind of ride height can I expect to realistically achieve with this set-up? I'd like to drop it down to somewhere around 6-7 inches from the ground at the running boards. Does this sound feasible?

Re: Starting a new build...
 

I think with your set up, your only problem is going to be in keeping from blowing the tires off of that rear.
For a 10" wheel in the rear, you will be doing some work on the inner fenders.
These trucks are VERY light in the back.........up in smoke, race over !!!

Re: Starting a new build...
 

One other thing, find a good tuner in your area, you will be looking for one.
It may take a few times to get all the torque to the pavement

Re: Starting a new build...
 

It looks like you have a goot d plan going. Running the original (style) frame solves a lot of issues that guys run into when doing frame swaps or subframe swaps.

The last time I weighed my 48 with the 250 six in it i think it was right at 3200 lbs and you are right on with the C-4 Corvettes weighing in at the same weight http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-g...-and-info.html Those that have this combination swear by it for both ride and handling.

Re: Starting a new build...
 

You're saying that those who use the combination of the c4 suspension with these trucks swear by them? I wish I could find more documentation of people who have used these components with their truck and actually have had a chance to test them out. It seems as though with everything I have read, no one has actually gotten to the stage of driving the truck. I'd really like to find a write up with some experience behind the wheel.

Re: Starting a new build...
 

I have been driving my 53/ls/c4 for 2 years. C4 front only handles and rides good, front bumper 5 1/2 ".

Re: Starting a new build...
 

Thank you for the response not2oldchevy.

What size LS are you using?

Re: Starting a new build...
 

[QUOTE=gearhead2069;6690639]Well... I guess you have convinced me! I think I'm going to go with both front and rear from Flat Out. I feel that I have skills comparable to that of Stockish so I think I'll purchase rather than build my own.

The only thing I started worrying about was the diff's ability to hold. My current plan is to run with a 376/480 LS crate from GM. Obviously the c4 did not come with that many horses so I began to worry. Well, I started looking into it some more and apparently Dodge has been using the 44 in their Vipers for quite some time now. Starting in 2003 the Viper came from the manufacture with over 500 horses and they still used the same diff. Obviously, that was probably at the flywheel and not the wheels but then again, the engine I'd like to go with puts 480 to the flywheel so in theory I should be good...

Please feel free to chime in and correct any errors in my logic.



The only caveat I would mention is try to get the dana 44 version if you can.Most agree that it is good to about 500 hp,and guys have been swapping the jaguar version for decades with good results,however,all auto C4s from 84-96 had the dana 36 which is a bit weaker compared to the 44.As long as you`re running an auto and street tires it`ll probably live though.Weakest link is the spider gears failing and then making a window in the case but an aftermarket posi should fix that.More info here:

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-t...er-limits.html

All 6 speed and T10 C4s from 85 on had the Dana 44 and they are a little pricier.Both versions share the same hubs,halfshafts,ect,only external difference being the case and batwing so you could always upgrade later..

Re: Starting a new build...
 

5.3/4l60

Re: Starting a new build...
 

A little update...

So after a good bit of searching, I was able to locate some suspension components.

http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/t...ps5xqv3qx1.jpg

http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/t...psmqbe61ay.jpg

What I ended up with is a Dana 44 off of an 87 Vette. Finding the 44 over the 36 was more of a venture than I had planned. These guys are getting expensive! Oh well, I am still ahead on what was originally planned as far as funds go so I'm doing pretty good.

Got my shipment in from Flat Out. Don seems like a super nice guy. The ordering process went really well. I'm impressed with how easy he was to talk to. The only problem was the carrier... I mean, I realize that all the parts are steel but dang... They could have been a LITTLE easier with the boxes. A few of the holes were big enough for me to worry about some things falling out.

http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/t...psq2pvgyvj.jpg

http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/t...psi07cwrdf.jpg

Parts look great! I'm getting so pumped! Tired of the parts collecting stage but hopefully once I get over the getting started hump, maybe things will start moving forward with a bit of a pace.

http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/t...psttjuu8qv.jpg

http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/t...psrlryr4yh.jpg

After a pretty good order from LMC and BROTHERS, I'm ready to get this ball rolling!

http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/t...psgrptqckk.jpg

The only thing I am waiting on is to see if the tire shop I use is going to be able to hook me up with a set of throw away tires in the right profile to put on some wheels I had laying around. I'm not sure what width I am going to go with but I have been studying the builds that you fine people have posted and I LOVE the profile that Stockish went with on his build. So, ???/35-18 is what I want to run with. The wheels I have are 15s, but if I go with a tire that is ???/65-15 then I'll have an identical overall diameter. That way I can find my wheel center, adjust for ride height and have a roller without having to worry about messing up a new set of wheels and have tires go bad during the build.

If those of you who have gone similar routes have any tips or pointers, please by all means let me know of them. This is my first serious build and I am in no place to turn down any sound advice!

Re: Starting a new build...
 

Right on Gearhead! You certainly have been collecting some parts. One thing to look into is make sure those 15" rims will clear the brake calipers before getting tires mounted.

Re: Starting a new build...
 

Yep, when I had the epiphany that I still had those wheels, I checked the bolt pattern and fit to ensure I'd have no issues. I got all giddy as they just barely slipped over the calipers. I guess there was a reason I was never able sell those crappy things! God is good!

Re: Starting a new build...
 

I am looking for some hard parts from a Corvette front and rear, where did you find your used parts?

Re: Starting a new build...
 

Unfortunately I had to use eBay. I'd recomend you either find a wrecked one that someone is wanting to sell for cheap or see if you can find one at a yard somewhere. Unfortunately there was nothing to be found in my area and I didn't feel like waiting on a chance future discovery.

Re: Starting a new build...
 

What exactly are you looking for?

Re: Starting a new build...
 

Well, I called the owner of the tire shop I use today and explained my situation to him. He comes back with "What size wheel is it? It's not a 15 is it? Well, it just so happens that a guy just came in with an s10 and the tires he took off of his truck are the exact size that you need in 205/65-15." Went down there and had them put them on the old wheels. Now just waiting for some welding consumables to come in and time to get this project moving. Like I said before... God is good and he treats me better than I deserve!

Here is a visual image of just how close the overall profile is going to be. I'll also post a link to the site I used. It may come in handy to those of you in the same situation.

http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/tirecalc.php

http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/t...psruepzdwz.png

Re: Starting a new build...
 

So as I am finishing up getting just a few small parts here and there for getting this thing started, in the interest of keeping the project going I need to start thinking about engine and transmission.

I plan to use the truck as a daily upon completion. My plan is to shoot for a reasonable MPG (because let's be honest... Gas is never going to go down) while having something to play with when I need it. Chevrolet is getting some pretty impressive figures when it comes to their Camaro and Corvette. The Camaro is now pushing around 430hp out of their LS3 (which can be purchased as a crate) and is rated around 16/24mpg. The curb weight of the Camaro comes in around 3860. Apparently the curb weight of the truck was 3175 back in the day. I looked up the weight of the 219 I6 that came with the truck and it weighted in a little over 600 whereas the LS3 comes in a little over 400. Along with the different suspension components I can only imagine the weight is going to remain around the same if not drop just a bit. I realize that aerodynamics are going to come into play here in favor of the Camaro but surely I can get some pretty reasonable figures here. In favor of maximizing my MPG I'd like to go with a 6 speed. I am fighting the idea of going with a manual for two reasons. One- as I want to keep a bench seat in the truck, I'm curious as to how long the throws will be (every stick I have ever driven has been in a car) and I'm afraid longer throws will take all the fun out of it being a daily. Two- as I plan on searching around for some internals to make the diff a little stronger, I still fear a manual being rougher than an auto on the diff. I don't know, feel free to chime in or correct my logic.

So as far as 6 speed autos go, I guess I could go with a 4L80e that was been modified into a 6 speed but I have been seeing a few reviews where this results in a less than perfect tranny that doesn't really have the greatest longevity. This leaves me with a 6L80/90 though I am leaning more towards the 90 as I believe it is probably closer to a true 6 speed tranny than the 80 when reviewing the gearing. I'm thinking the 90 may give me better results.

What do you all think?

Re: Starting a new build...
 

I opted out of a manual transmission because I at my age I am tired of changing gears.

Re: Starting a new build...
 

88 to 96 Dana 44, complete front and rear suspension a 3:0 to 3:25 gear ratio would be a plus!