Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

Here's the thread just in case anyone's as interested in the problem as I am...Or, better, interested in the solution.

Thankfully, this is not a problem *I* have. But it would be great to get Mike some tips that one might not see when
"living" so close to the issue.

My guess, even operating from a vacuum of information, is that the head and deck need machining.

Just a shot in the dark, though.

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

It looks like the #7 cylinder has been burning coolant, it could be as simple as a blown head gasket, or it could be a warped head, a warped deck, a cracked block, or a cracked head.

Best to inspect the old gasket, clean the head/deck surfaces, check for warping and visually inspect the deck for cracks, and get the head magna-fluxed. Pay special attention to the # 7 cylinder area.

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

More often than not , head gasket failures are caused by old dirty radiators that don't cool enough.

^^^^ What Nate said X2

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

I am in , this could be interesting.

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

Because people continue to drive their cars after they are already over-heated. There is a "vacuum of information" here as stated, it will be interesting to me what trickles in as the conversation matures.

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

The radiator I have is a four row radiator with internal trans cooler.but it is not a radiator for this truck. I'm not sure of the make/year of prod. I have owned the radiator for a bout 6 years. It was connected to the engine for most of that time. But the engine was not running. I disconnected about 9 months ago when I began restoring the engine and truck. Then it sat outside for about 6 months. I did my best to flush it with a garden hose before reconnecting it. I had also replaced the brass casting plugs in the block. During that time I had the block on an engine stand and I did my best to flush the block with the heads still attached. I got a lot of really fine rusty scale out of the block. I'm wondering if I may have caused the coolant passages in the heads to become clogged.

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

Also I have a infrared temperature gun. And just for fun I was pointing that thing at almost everything under the hood, just to have an idea of how things looked after it had been running for a while (from a temperature standpoint) I did notice that when I read thermostat temp. It said 179°, top hose about 2' from stat was 156°, temp from top hose at rad connection was 147°, then driver side of rad from top to bottom was continuous 140°, as I read top middle of radiator it read 88°, then continuous from top to bottom of middle front of radiator read 115°, passenger side of rad from top to bottom where outlet hose connects was 135°, middle of outlet rad hose was 147°, rad hose at water pump connection was 155°, water pump read 120° both heads at front of block read 170°, both heads at middle of intake manifold connection port read 225° both heads at rear of block read 170°, carb read at fuel filter inlet 125°, 3/8 steel fuel supply line about 6inches from carb to the front of block read 115°. All temps recorded while engine was idling in park after about an hours worth of driving and a trip over a pretty good grade of a hilly winding road.

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

Thermostat is brand new 180° , brand new stat housing (chrome), brand new rad hoses, brand new chrome aluminum water pump. Fresh coolant. Filled to about three inches or so from top. Brand new rad cap with pressure relief top.

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

Temp sender was reused. I just did a fresh rewire of in tire wehicle myself. Temp sender works as far as I know because it moves the gauge needle. I noticed that before I did any type of work to the truck it would ride right where the shaded area on original temp gauge would stop before going solid white. Now it would ride about 1/4" or less into the solid white area

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

Sounds like it was running nice and cool, radiator and cooling system operating normal. The heads read 225 at the middle of the intake because of the exhaust cross-over port.

1. What did the head gasket look like? Metal ring around the cylinder rust through or blow inward/outward?

2. What was the failure, did it just start smoking or did it overheat? Did the engine lock up at any point?

3. Any cracks in the # 7 combustion chamber? You'll need to wire wheel the carbon off, use eye protection. Don't worry about magna-flux just yet until the above questions are answered.

4. Any broken, stretched head bolts?

Stay with me here, I've done this drill hundreds of times. Don't get ahead of me and I'll take you where you need to go.

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

#1-The head gasket on passenger side looked fine as far as I can tell. The head gasket on the driver side seemed ok until I got around #7 cylinder. The steel ring looked intact but when I pulled on it at around the 3'o'clock to 6'o'clock area(as if you were standing at fender side of vehicle looking at #1-#7 left to right) it easily separated from the gasket material. But was still complete ring. So it could have separated when head was removed. I tried not to use and type of chisel or scraper to lift the head off.
#2-I had just pulled onto the road from a driveway. Put the pedal to the floor to get some quick speed, got up to 45 fairly quickly. Kept it at 45 for one block, hit a red light and turned right. Drove at usual throttle position to reach 45 gradually. Hit next red light. Was idling fine. Greenlight I feather throttle and heard and felt the truck stumble/misfire, didn't really think about it because once I shifted into second it sounded fine. Hit next red light about a block away and the idle sounded funny, greenlight and I feathered it again. This time it almost died, I looked in my rearview to see two giant plumes of white smoke one from each tailpipe. So I let off throttle realizing something was wrong. But was in middle of traffic so had to drive about a block to a gas station which was at the top of a small hill. The truck made bit there but had white smoke coming out of each tailpipe. As soon as I pulled in I turned it off. At first I thought I had seen oil in my driver side tailpipe. But I think it was hot coolant steam cleaning the inside of the pipe.waited about five minutes and turned it back on. And the smoke was there right away. So I turned it back off waited another couple of minutes and notice that my temp gauge was up to the middle. So I checked my radiator,let pressure bleed off, and looked inside. Couldn't even see the coolant. So that's when I realized that's what was coming out of my exhaust. Plus coolant was draining out of both sides header collectors. Engine did not lock up once. Total distance driven after I noticed a problem would be about a 1/2mile or so.
#3- I cleaned up the gasket contact surface of the head a little with red scotch bright and engine degreaser, here is a pic. #7 is on the left.
#4- no broken bolts, but very difficult to get out. On both heads. And I haven't checked for stretch.
Im not able to do anything to the truck or any parts this week, because the truck is at my dads house and I'm about 20 miles away at my house with no transportation other than carpooling to work, but I will be there Friday afternoon probably for the whole weekend trying to figure this out. But I can answer almost anything by memory and what few pix i took before I left.

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

Forgot picture

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

Looks like it blew around the 9 o'clock area, by this picture's orientation, below the head bolt through that little coolant passage.

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

I agree, that is the area that I noticed the metal ring portion separated from the gasket material. In this picture it would be from about 10o'clock to 8o'clock position now that I look closer to the picture and what I remember seeing.
Before I removed both heads, I pulled each spark plug. In cylinder #6 showed dampness and rust towards electrode. #7 cylinder dumped almost a quart of coolant. After I pulled driver side head, coolant obviously was sitting on top of all pistons . I didn't remove coolant from them until the next morning. All pistons except #7 still had coolant pooled inside cylinder, but at a lower level.

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

Pictures

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

After you pulled it over and shut it off, I hope you didn't try to re-start it. The torque from the starter can easily bend a rod if the cyl fills up with fluid especially if the piston gets near the top as the leverage increases proportionately with the crankshaft angle.

While you have the head off, obtain a dial indicator or a straight edge with feeler gauge, make sure the #7 affected piston comes up the same as the others and that it's the same on the front of the piston (toward the grill) as it is on the rear of the piston (toward the rear bumper) and that the eye-brows don't look twisted. This will give you an idea if the rod is bent.

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

Passenger side view of block
Passenger side head

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

If everything is straight, flat and not cracked, put it back together with a cheap set of new head bolts and fel-pro 1094 steel shim head gaskets as long as the pistons are at least .025" below deck. Obtain a thread chaser for the head bolt threads in the block and clean them out.

Flush the block, heater core, and radiator with the hose and let them all drain out and remove the block plugs if you can without twisting them off. I like to put radiator pet-cocks on them. Go back together with either the 50/50 mix coolant that uses distilled water on the label, or 50/50 coolant and distilled water.

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

I did restart it and it idled for about thirty seconds, that's when I observed the temp gauge nearly at half. I immediately turned it off. But when I finally it home and I had a friend there, we attempted to push it up my driveway but it was to steep. So I topped off my rad, and turned it on to drive the 15 ft. Forward. As soon as I killed it it dumped coolant out of both sides. I'm aware that liquids don't compress. But I checked my oil right before I pulled the heads and there was without a doubt no indication of coolant in the oil. But when I removed my pcv valve and grommet out of the valve cover, and the spark arrestor and grommet out of passenger side valve cover there was definite evidence of coolant in the oil. Each grommet had "chocolate milk" residual on them.

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

Not sure if this info is pertinent but I've been having issues with power at highway cruising speeds. After I drive for about an hour, over a steep grade, my exhaust will become almost silent( I have super 40 flow masters) to a point where I can actually hear things outside my vehicle.lol. but I will have my throttle about 3/4 of the way to the floor and doing only about 60.with almost no passing power. I did replace intake gaskets for the second time two weeks ago. And got 19.5hg at idle,steady no fluctuations. Also did an oil change and put in Kendall 20w-50. I used to run straight 30w. And the night before this happend I put seafoam engine treatment in the fuel tank and topped it off at gas station.

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

There you go.

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

#7 filled up because you topped the radiator and pressurized it by starting it again, so after you did that it had time to fill up. It did not leak fast enough to fill it up enough to lock it while it was running. As long as it didn't stop turning suddenly while it was running or knock when you were cranking it.

Sounds like you got away with it.

While you have the heads off, check all the lifters and make sure they still have shiny faces and are still rotating. If they are con-cave, then they are worn. Coolant, if contaminating the oil over time, can wipe out the cam but it sounds like you had a fairly rapid failure.

I think it will be an easy head gasket replacement. The 1094 fel-pro is a steel shim head gasket .015" thick with rubber coating, or you can use the cheaper, non-coated one listed under it. With the composition head gaskets (.028-.041"), flat top 4 eyebrow pistons, average deck clearance, 76cc chamber un-milled heads, you are at or near 8.5-8.7:1 true compression. With the 1094s (.015"), you will be at or near 8.9-9.0:1 true compression, plus you will have better "quench" making your engine actually more detonation resistant than it would be with the thicker gasket and lower compression. Make sure your heads are good and flat no more than .003" over a distance of 3" before you assemble it, and if they are not, get them milled or ground. I believe they can be ground without dis-assembly but it depends on the shop.
Head gaskets
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fel-1094
OR if you are on a budget
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fe...make/chevrolet
Head bolts
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/na...make/chevrolet
Thread chaser
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ARP-911-0004..._Tools&vxp=mtr

If you choose to use a regular tap, think again. A good tap will cut out metal and weaken your threads. A very used, worn out tap is better than a new one. Or, if you are good with a dremel, cut cleaning grooves on one of your old head bolts and use that. Cut them at an angle into the threads.

If you use the cheaper head gaskets, you will need to spray them with copper-coat or equivalent. Please don't re-use those old head bolts. The new ones come with sealer already on the threads, put some nylon sealer on the washer part of the bolt and torque them to 65-70 foot pounds. If you use your old head bolts (please don't) clean them on a wire wheel, use nylon thread sealer on the threads and the washer part, and torque them to 65 no more.

If you were getting any oil fouling on the plugs before the failure, this would be a good time to replace the valve seals or do a valve job if you have the funding.

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

Oh crap is that a crack or two between the valve seats on the bottom picture?

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

Uh-oh!

You mean *this*?

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

Ugh!

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

700.00$ shipped, no more guesswork.

http://www.competitionproducts.com/W.../#.VDTZSE10wu4

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

I just want to say thank you to everyone who has taken the time out of there own lives to respond to my situation. I am absorbing everything like a sponge. I realize the pix I posted aren't really good quality, but that's only because of the pixel limit I am allowed to upload per pic. The actual photos I'm trying to up load are in full 1080 p HD. So if anyone wants to give me an email address I will be happy to send better quality photos. The ones in my post are almost incomparable.

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

Ok. I did use I new harbor freight tap on my intake manifold bolts because they went threw oil galley. I know how a tap works and did observe chips in the tap reliefs. But Im pretty sure it was only carbon build up...

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

I mean head bolt holes for intake bolts.

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

I would not recommend using steel shim gaskets on a used (or even rebuilt) engine unless the block and heads have been verified flat. They work well on new engines, but shifting over time and high thermal stress from overheating can cause enough shift that they will not seal, right off the bat. You have a crack on that cylinder head, which needs to be dealt with.

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

Quoting myself here: " Make sure your heads are good and flat no more than .003" over a distance of 3" before you assemble it, and if they are not, get them milled or ground".

"If everything is straight, flat and not cracked, put it back together with a cheap set of new head bolts and fel-pro 1094 steel shim head gaskets as long as the pistons are at least .025" below deck".

"Oh crap is that a crack or two between the valve seats on the bottom picture"?

Quoting magwakeenercew2jh: "Uh-oh! You mean *this*? Followed by picture of cracked head.

All quotes on this thread.

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

Hmmm, welcome to the intertubes, where very few may have read every post you may have made in a thread, which in this case I did not. Don't get too butt hurt by my not laboring over your every post. I won't be the only one.

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

So after a crazy weekend, I was able to find out some interesting news. I cleaned up the head surface of the drivers side where I had the gasket blowout on cylinder #7. I wasn't able to see any blatant cracking or warpage. I used a straight edge and flat feeler gauge with .003 indicator along with a background light source. I measured vertically and horizontally across the entire head to block mating surface, not to sure how to measure diagonally across combustion chambers... There is no doubt in my mind and also my Buddy's that this thing is flat. My friend recommended his ex-bosses opinion. This guy has been racing and building dragsters since the late 60's early 70's. Also the fact that my friend has a certain negative opinion about him as a employer, but acknowledges his mechanical ability speaks to me. He confirmed I have 2.02 heads. He felt that no internal damage had been done to the heads themselves. He HIGHLY recommends that I pull the engine and place it on a stand, so I can pull crankshaft and pistons to replace rings and main bearings. Then he can inspect cam, lifters, and cylinder walls. He said if everything checks out, do a light hone by hand and replace valve guide seals then put it back together. All in all I think its good news. Considering it still will be a few weeks til its back on the road. After I told him the truck was sitting for about 8 yrs. In my driveway,with just water no coolant in it, and no hood or even tarp for about the last two of those years that that's exactly why this happend. Live and learn is what I'm gathering from all of this...
Pictures: head gasket with failure, some type of scratch on number #7 cylinder above piston tdc that is pretty close to where the gasket failed

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

Not an expert on butt hurt, don't know what that means. But obviously you know something I don't.

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

Hey Mike The Grad: Is the picture posted by magwakeenercew2jh of the cracked valve seats a picture of your head?

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

Mechanicalman: yes it is a picture of my passenger side head. But I think what may appear to be a crack might actually be carbon build up stuck on there from me cleaning the head. I only really had time to clean the driver side this past weekend. On Friday I will clean the passenger side up and post pics.

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

Might be a good idea to take the heads to a good machine shop for a steam clean and a magna-flux just to be sure.

Make sure you inspect the lifters, and make sure they don't get mixed up as to what hole they came out of. Post us a picture of the worst one.

That "scratch" on the upper part of the cyl wall just below the deck is likely the result of coolant dis-lodging a piece of carbon and the carbon getting suck between the top of the piston on the side above the top ring and the cyl wall. You should be able to visualize the top ring if not spray with penetrating oil, blow it out and clean it out if nec. The piston ring needs to be free and floating in order to seal. Don't scrape or wire wheel the pistons (you can jam the extra carbon onto the rings into the grooves and stick them), just spray them with penetrating oil or douse them with top engine cleaner and let them soak. Wipe it out before you install the heads then the pistons will self-clean when you start the engine.

A good trick is to coat the cyl walls with grease, then rotate the engine and the rings will push the grease to the top carrying the dirt off the top of the rings with it then simply wipe it out with the piston down.

I wouldn't pull the engine out just yet if you don't think you put it in a hydraulic lock and the #7 top ring is free (the piston should move independent of the ring and the ring should stay against the cyl wall). Looks like the piston is stamped "30"? Probably been re-bored.

I'd be more optimistic of the bottom end than I would be of the heads, but hope you get away with just a pair of head gaskets.

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

Mechanical man: yes the engine has been totally rebuilt. I think in '92. At the 300k mark. And its got 74k on the rebuild. The work was done by my ex's grandfather. He had a shop here in town for quit a while. From what I hear he has a damn good reputation. I don't doubt any of the work he's done on any car. I know the crank is .10 under. My financial situation may change here shortly, so I'm thinking of taking advantage of the situation and do a little more than just change gaskets. The only true thing that's hurting me is being without a vehicle. And the more I send to the shop the longer the turn around is...

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

No reason to believe the bearings are bad, the oil didn't get much water for very long at all, make sure the rings are free on # 7. Turn the heads upside down and pour some trans oil into the ports onto the underside of the valves to check for leaky valves before you take them apart.

Any chance anything on the valve seats looks remotely like a crack, send the heads to the shop. Valve seals, for sure; I'd put the "umbrella" seals on it along with the stock "o-ring" on the intake only. Don't put the o-rings on the exhaust valve if you are using the umbrellas, they stop the oil flow to the umbrella and it gets too hot. Same reason the o-ring burns up on the exhaust and fails, but if the umbrella gets the oil over it, it will last a long time. The stock exhaust valve faces are way too thick next to the stem and retain too much heat.

No advantage to replacing rings and honing unless the rings are stuck, and then I'd just do it on #7 ONLY if it needed it, it just increases piston to cylinder wall clearance and will decrease the life of the engine.

Because you have the intake off, do what I said for the lifters, it's too easy. After sitting outside for years with no tarp, a lifter could have gotten sticky and might be on it's way out. You don't want to take it apart again after you do the head gaskets. You don't want to see bad lifters/cam, but if you have a bad lifter/cam, you want to see it.

If the heads are cracked, replace them. Don't let the shop talk you into a crack repair.

If you think the heads need magnaflux test, they pass, and if your g-dad in law put new valve guides in it, have the shop grind the seats and put a "head improvement kit" in it, you can do it yourself if you have or can get a valve spring compressor. Very reasonable, come with everything you need, come in both valve sizes. Measure the valves first, I think you have the 1.94 but measure to be sure. Get the cheapest head kit in your valve size, you don't need higher pressure valve springs and if the cam is stock you don't want to shim the springs.

http://www.competitionproducts.com/H.../#.VD6_V010wu4

http://www.competitionproducts.com/C...s/products/27/

If you use a head improvement kit, you won't need or be able to put the o-rings on the intake valves.

New head bolts, 1094 head gaskets.

It is what it is. I'm telling you the cheapest, fastest way to fix right. Feel free to ask me anything.

Re: Mike The Grad's Coolant Splat
 

Mechanicalman: I definitely appreciate your input. The way I look at it is, the more information available to me will help me make the correct choices. Everyone isn't right, and everyone isn't wrong. I will pass along the opinion and see what I hear in return. And yes, I agree with you about doing this again in the near future. I don't want to! It seems as though everything I've done up til this point I've already had to redo. But that's the fun about learning right?! Pfff.... I'm about getting it done right the first time. But that can't always be when I try and do everything myself for the first time. I love to learn, just not at the price of doing everything twice. It is what it is, and I'm much smarter now than I was 6 months ago.