starter motor
 

Anyone fitting a starter motor make sure its shimmed up correctly

Re: starter motor
 

That starter nose crack isn't from shimming. Usually caused by incorrrect bolts or lack of a rear starter brace.
Another possibility is incorrect initial timing.

Re: starter motor
 

Geezer#99 pretty well nailed it on all three counts.

You have to have the correct GM starter bolts.

It truly needs the brace from the extended bolt on the other end of the starter to the block to keep it from flexing and bouncing.

If the timing is off and the engine backfires or kicks back it can do that.

I just went through 2 and 3 with the Cadillac 500 I put in my 71 GMC and ended up with similar results and had to buy a new starter endframe.

Re: starter motor
 

With 48 above.
Not to mention that starter never came on a 47-59 (this subforum) truck.
I recall turning a guaranteed 454 starter into a morraca when the timing was off.

Re: starter motor
 

I replaced three starters in two weeks right after I built a high comp 455 Buick in my younger days. A little spark a few degrees too early can blow the nose clean off the starter. :(

Re: starter motor
 

Yoshi, do you have one of these brackets?
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w...arterbrace.jpg

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w...erbracketG.jpg

If you can find one you could just replace the end frame housing rather than buy a complete starter. New ones are usually under 20.00 US.

Re: starter motor
 

I made my own brace with a bit of angle, a hacksaw, drill and a tack weld.

Re: starter motor
 

No I don't have one of those brackets, is it held to the engine by the cooling plug?

Re: starter motor
 

My SBC had an unused threaded hole on the side of the block. Maybe 5/16" to 3/8" dia X 1" long.

Re: starter motor
 

Cant see anything in that area except what i found out after getting a wet arm, to be a cooling plug!

Re: starter motor
 

For a Chevrolet V8 I would skip the brace and the heavy, old technology starter for one of these permanent magnet types, commonly found on GM trucks made from 1996+

http://www.fleetalternatorstarter.co...lay/6449.1.jpg

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-CHEVY-...item1c23cadb03

They last much longer between replacements and provide more torque as well. There are some additional parts required. You'll need another long attaching bolt and the small eye terminal to the solenoid will probably need to be replaced. Most people find the investment pays off over time.

There is a version available for engines using the smaller flywheel, too.

Re: starter motor
 

While we are on the subject of starters, I installed this remote solenoid after having many "hot start" issues. Maybe this will be of use to someone.

The small purple wire is from the key. I use the LH large post for headlight and fan relay hookups.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps9ae67434.jpg

I think this labeled "unusual" is that the S is usually found on the RH post. They are labeled.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...psbb469b0b.jpg

Re: starter motor
 

When using the original GM bolts should I use a flat washer & spring washer on each bolt?

Re: starter motor
 

No washers used at all.
Do you have the knurled shoulder bolts?

Re: starter motor
 

Yes knurled part is just under thread. How exactly do you check gap with the paper clip?

Re: starter motor
 

You have to remove the solenoid and manually engage the drive to the ring gear. Not the easiest thing to do, especially on the vehicle. Before you get wrapped around the axle about brackets, correct bolts, washers, etc, IMO it was your wild variations in timing that broke that starter. I have violated virtually every one of those rules in my career and never broke a starter housing, but then I've never ran a hose from the intake manifold to the water pump either. You are letting "too many cooks make your soup." There is lots of advice here and much of it is opinion, not always good but always well intentioned. Now that you have a timing light, use it to set initial timing and your problems will start to go away. There is only so much real help you can get from the internet. It's kind of like sex, you can talk about it and read about it but sometimes you just have to be there to get the best result. find someone you trust to help you actually lay hands on that truck. I don't mean to offend, but I'm convinced, like I think many others here are, that if I had 2 hours with that truck it would be sorted out. I know you can find someone like that where you are. I do admire your tenacity. Good luck.

Re: starter motor
 

Ok thanks, do I just go for it without any shims & see how it go's?

Re: starter motor
 

Speaking of poor advice, you don't need to remove the solenoid to actuate the gear.
A straight awl will reach in and move the gear easily.

Re: starter motor
 

I can't tell you that. A good ear can tell, usually, if the starter is binding and needs shims. I almost always remove the solenoid and manually engage the drive gear by moving the plunger back and forth, but I do it on an engine run stand where it's easier. If you have good access you could do the same. By slightly moving the engine ring gear, there should be a spot where you can slide the starter drive pinion gear in to engagement easily with your hand moving the plunger back and forth. Don't worry if it doesn't disengage quite as easily because the spinning of the running engine will take care of that. If you can't ENGAGE it easily, put a shim in and see if it gets better and repeat until it does. In todays world of trashy tolerances, I'd really tell you to put a .060 shim(big one) in it, bolt it together and you'll be fine, but I can't guarantee it. Listen to what it tells you when you start it. It's pretty hard to overshim these things. And "I" always use an SAE flat washer on those bolts because they tighten on an aluminum housing. No spring washer!

Re: starter motor
 

awl?

Re: starter motor
 

...of the correct diameter. A drill bit works too.

http://assets.rockler.com/media/cata...38-02-1000.jpg

Re: starter motor
 

And you're the one who chided someone for telling him to set the timing by the total advance method and I agree with you. Not the best advice to give to a less experienced person. Now you're telling the same person to stick an "awl" in the starter drive and pry the pinion forward? You're asking him to differentiate between the pressure of the gear engagement and pressure of the return spring and it's all easy? I stand by what I said.

Re: starter motor
 

I don't think the housing is alloy, also there's a recess at each bolt hole as seen in the top picture

Re: starter motor
 

The recessed holes are on the side that goes against the block in picture 1, but there could be recesses on the bolt side. The SAE washers fit into those recesses if they are there. You're right, the old starter isn't alloy, but most replacements are. Thought I saw a pic. of one you purchased but I guess it was someone elses example.

Re: starter motor
 

If you're going to use the awl method, make sure and disconnect the battery before you start prying the pinion. If you pry far enough, you'll engage the starter and that could be hard on the fingers.

Re: starter motor
 

Yes, disconnect the battery!!! I have a "custom" screwdriver with a slightly bent tip I made when I was doing the starter swap, shimming. I went thru 3 "new" starters to find one that worked correctly, two from box places, good one from NAPA. having the clearance of the 4wd axles made swapping and working easy.

Re: starter motor
 

I made a brace & proceeded to fit the motor & used the same shim. I had some problems starting (see timing thread) I then drained the battery so placed it on charge. When I returned & tried again I got a clicking sound as if the battery was flat so I checked the voltage which was 12.7v, I then thought maybe something to do with the switch on Lokar shifter so I checked volts at the starter & got 13v there. So I figured it must be the starter motor, when I had a look the small cog was jambed up. I got some more shimming material twice the thickness & tried again, but it happened again. I put both shims in the thin & thicker one. Again it jambed, so I fitted 2 of the thicker shims & left off my brace incase that had an effect. Again it jambed, I've left it now as it's got dark & temp is down to 3deg C. Not sure if I should shim again or just shim the inside to tilt the motor slightly

Re: starter motor
 

Shimming the inside pad bolt only moves the gear AWAY from the flywheel. Shimming the outside pad bolt only moves the gear TOWARDS the flywheel. If you are using a rebuilt starter the remanf may have machined the pad resulting in to tight of a fit. I went thru three starters and a full weekend before I got a starter that would fit right and the correct shims on mine. It is not rocket science just tedious and attention to how you are methodically moving the starter each time. If you are having to use a lot of shim, replace the starter, there will not be enough contact area to keep the starter from rocking while trying to start.

Re: starter motor
 

Not a remanufactured starter

Re: starter motor
 

It is also possible that the drive return spring is faulty or missing.

Re: starter motor
 

Depending on which flywheel 153 tooth or 168 could be wrong starter

Re: starter motor
 

There is pretty good info on shimming the starter on the bottom of this page.

http://rmcavoy.freeshell.org/starters.html

One problem I have found with rebuilt starters is that the rebuilders like to lay the mounting surface of the end frame on a belt sander to give it a nice fresh machined look that takes metal off the mounting surface.

Re: starter motor
 

I've dropped the starter down & it's resting between the sump & exhaust, when I turn the key the small cog is coming out & returning but not spinning

Re: starter motor
 

Sounds like a bad solenoid, but wait for a couple more to chime in...Jim

Re: starter motor
 

IF you unbolted the starter and let it drop you have lost the ground circuit and it will not work.

Re: starter motor
 

Ah yes of course doh