Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

I notice that the first thing a C10 buyer on here often does when he gets a new project truck is to yank the 305 out of it.

Now I understand that the 305 isn't the path to power. But isn't it a serviceable engine for a daily driver? Is anyone here using one for that, or is a 350 the minimum acceptable SBC?

#tryingtounderstand

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

I'm running a 305 in mine. Have zero interest in swapping it out.

If you're replacing the engine anyhow it makes sense, but swapping it out just because is a lot of work for not a lot of difference.

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

The 305 is a decent engine for transportation, but lets face it... these trucks are TOYS for the most part. If we wanted basic transportation, there are much better, newer, more efficient options.
If I were to purchase a truck that needed NOTHING and had a 305 in it, I would likely drive it until the engine needed attention, THEN replace it with a 350... but since its basically the same price to rebuild a 350 than a 305, replacing a tired engine with an upgrade is a no-brainer.

I have read article on building STRONG 350+HP 305's... but at the end they always tell you the same money would build a much better 350...

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

I had a 305, decent enough engine, ran it for years towing cars and daily driving. Hopped it up a bit with an RV cam, longtube headers. I did end up swapping it out for a 5.3L last year because I couldn't get the tune nailed down for the TPI, and just wouldn't run right. Needed it reliable for Home Depot runs and whatnot. The 305 sitting under my bench now waiting for something to drop it in, tuning issues with ancient ECMs aside, it's a strong runner.

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

They're adequate, but not worth building with how cheap a 350 can be had for.

That said, if I was building an engine for anything more than a basic A to B work truck, I wouldn't go 350 either - I'd go bigger.

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

When you could have a 400 in the same space, there's really nothing to lose, is there.

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

Ive got a 305 in my truck. Being that I have a computer controlled carb and ignition and living in California there is only so much I can do. Going to a 350 requires a different PROM for the ECM. My truck has pretty decent power for what it is. Its my only vehicle so I cant go too crazy anyway. I plan to do a 350 swap at some point but the little 305 does pretty good and gets decent mileage. Some better gears would really wake this thing up.

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

Small bore means no ability to really add more power, and everyone adds more power. I'd rather have a chevy 302 then a 305. People don't really daily drive 29+yr old vehicles very often.

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

If you've got a 305 you should plan on replacing the cam around 70K miles.

I had one in a 1977 Impala and loved it. If tunes right it gave some 350s a run for their money.

RIZ

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

In a truck Id rather have a 305. The longer stroke makes better torque. True the small bore hurts max power but for a daily driver the 305 does just fine. And plenty of people drive these old trucls daily. My 85 GMC is the only vehicle I own so it is my daily driver for sure.

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

I had a 305 in a 1977 Camaro...not a problem with it and it ran good and strong...just sayin'...Marla

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

have a 305 in my daily (60 miles round trip) but I'll be swapping to a LS motor soon I think. I have the sm465 trans, and mated with the 305 in the mtn traffic is not the best when I shift into 2nd and everyone behind is giving me the finger

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

I'd rather have a 302, but not a 302 with the cam that typically comes in one. The Chevy 302 has the same bore/stroke as the Ford 302/5.0, which does well in trucks. I suspect a Chevy 302 with a moderate cam would be better just about everywhere vs a 305. On a truck though, I'd prefer bigger... at least throw a 327 crank in there (I think the main journal size is bigger on the 350 so you can't use that).

I'm not sure I'd want a 400 crank though, 3.75" results in a lot of wall loading. If I did have one, I'd go with the longest rods I could. I might be more inclined to go 377 (3.48" stroke, 4.125" bore).

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

The 305 in my 83 is still running strong with 230K original miles, but like Anthony said mine has the computer and E4ME carb also. She's been my daily driver since day one, looking down the road an E-rod LS3 6.2 transplant will be in the works, smog legal in Cali for now, a little pricey but in the long run well worth it.:metal:

http://arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/de...o/D-126-30.pdf

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

I bought a new K-10 in 1982 with the 305 engine in it.Couldn't get a 350 in a 1/2 ton truck in 82.
I put 200,000 plus miles on it before the compression rings wore out.Did not burn oil or smoke.Just wouldn't pull anymore!
I have a 305 in my 68,c-10 now until I get the 327 rebuilt and it runs great.
Excellant engine for a daily driver and you can buy one for much less than a 350.
Mike.:chevy:

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

Not a thing wrong with the 305 - but like you're starting to see - if you're going for performance, it doesn't make sense to build the 305.

Reliability, towing, etc? Sure, nothing at all wrong. My 84 still has the 305 and I plan to drive it until it grenades. And the truck used to pull a small camper back in the day with no issues.

If you have it, and it runs fine, use what you have.

If you want to make impressive numbers at a dyno or a race track... you might want to upgrade the engine to a 350 (cheapest route) first.

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

had several 305s back when they were common.

As I recall they were bad about clattering. Not great on power, nor fuel mileage.

Never was a fan.

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

My 85 still has the numbers matching 305. Runs good and strong. Its still a small block chevy and I would rather have a 305 than any strait 6, 4.3 v6 or crappy diesels that came in C10's. However, If the 305 in my truck grenades, I will swap in a Goodwrench 350.

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

I know the bore and stroke of the chevy 302 is 4.0x3.0. How is a 3.0 stroke better than a 3.48 stroke from the 305? The bigger bore will help the 302 breath on the top end but the 3.0 stroke has never been known for any kind of low end torque. In a heavy truck I`d want the low end pull over top end power.

The 3.75 stroke may put more load on the cylinder walls but it in no way means its got less longevity. Especially is you use longer rods to take that load off of the cylinder wall.

The 305 has a bad reputation similar to how the 396 bbc did. People see it as a small engine that costs the same or more than the bigger counter parts. That does not mean they cant work well. On the 3rd gen camaro site there are plenty of guys with mild 305`s knocking on the 12 second door.


Thats funny because I have been eyeballing that same exact set up for my 85. Now that I had a knowledgeable guy rebuild my E4ME carb and got my mixture control solenoid working the truck runs good and has some pep to it. It feels as strong as my old 90 K5 blazer with a TBI 350. Getting about the same mileage too.

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

Why can you make a 4x3 Ford engine work well in a truck (they were in LOTS of them) but not a 4x3 Chevy engine?

Stroke is far less important than heads/cam, and Chevy 302s tend to have big heads/cam resulting in minimal bottom end. People don't tend to bild them for grunt either, as they tend to go bigger in that case, but they can be.

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

First of all, look at the engines you are trying to compare. The Ford 302 is a shorter deck, shorter rod engine and the cylinder heads have the smallest runners. Sure, they work in a Ford truck but GM decided to get rid of the 3.0 stroke back in 1969 for a reason. They brought it back in the mid 90s for the baby LT1 but never in a truck. I kinda think there is a reason for that.

And the 302 engine engines came stock with the same 165cc heads as all the other sbc engines such with at least 300hp. They were nothing special by any means. And they have big cams because you have to review the crap out of them to make the power because the short stroke lacks low end power. Given the same heads, cam and compression my money is on the 305 for more low end power.

And stroke is every bit as important as the rest of the combo. Any problems builder will tell you that ALL parts need to work with each other.

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

Stroke isn't particularly important other than the displacement it provides. Put 305 heads/cam on a 302 and you'd have very similar performance to a 305.

More displacement absolutely helps torque, and if you aren't spinning faster than a 350 can there isn't much reason to go with a 302 instead (other than class limits). Since they were no longer building homologation cars, there wasn't much reason to build a 302.

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

This is incorrect information. Go run that past your favorite engine builder and let us know what he says. The difference in bore and stroke would create 2 completely different power bands from a 302 and a 305. And I dont recall anyone suggestion to the OP to build a 302 I stead of keeping his 305.

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

As just a daily driver the 305 is a prefect engine.If you want to build a nasty engine then i would swap it for something else.

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

I believe the pro's and con's of each design would negate a definite lead by either design. Both were built from a compromise of existing parts availability.

Just to confuse - where does the un-loved 307 lay in this debate ? Is it the best of both worlds, or neither ?? LOL...

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

305's do what GM intended. I think the reason some remove it in a truck application, is likely the same reason I wouldn't buy a truck with one. As far as trucks go I use them to haul and tow, so I prefer big blocks. 305 pickups are also cheaper to buy so that may interest some that plan a motor swap later. Nothing really wrong with the engine though, it's just small and performs just as you would expect a small engine to do.

Doesn't mean I'm not a small engine fan. We have a 69 Z with it's original 302, my wife drives it. Fun little engine to buzz around in. GM packaged that one right, fairly nimble driving car, light weight, and only come in 4-speeds. 3.73 was the standard gear with others optional. Yeah it likes RPM but has no trouble at all lugging around town either. Again, it's geared properly and in a light car. It's not an engine I'd want in a pickup truck however.
With that said, it's completely different from a 305. 302's were designed for a more specific use and has absolutely nothing in common with a 305 from a design standpoint.

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

I'm not sure I follow your first comment but the 307 is just the 283 bore with the 327 stroke. GM dropped that one as well in favor of the 305 so I'm thinking their engineers did that for a reason.

As mentioned the 302 can be a docile daily drivable engine but it's not ideal for a heavy truck. Im a big fan of smaller engine especially as well, usually fall back onto 327s, but I know enough about engine performance after 25+ yrs of messing with them to know that each engine enables has its place. Short stroke engines don't belong in heavy vehicles.

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

The 305 has been used mainly to times in trucks that tow without issue. These little engines as so under estimated because everyone just goes to the bigger is better and swaps them out.

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

A ski do sure :lol: When I say tow I mean TOW. Like my 28 foot enclosed trailer up a 6 mile long mountain grade, lol. Even on flat ground I wouldn't try pulling that with a 305.

Shucks I wouldn't even tow my 16' flat bed with a car on it with a 305 :lol: It's just miserable, I've been down that road before.

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

My truck has a 305 and had a 5th wheel installed at some point. I've towed cars with 305s before and they aren't that bad. Just not as good as a bigger engine. And I dont recall the OP asking about towing so yet again this discussion has gotten side tracked.

Bottom line is there is nothing wrong with a 305 engine. No it wont make the power of a bigger engine but they are still good work engines.

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

...yes, I do know the bore and stroke (and of all 3). Have a '71 307 languishing in the garage right now, shame it's of no use to me - it's low mileage.

The very small bore of the 305 helped with emissions - which at the time was probably their main concern.

GM's small engines have a history of using existing current (at their build time) crank strokes of their larger brothers.
Olds '68 to '69 400 and 455.
Olds 260, 307, 330, 350, and 403 - all the same stroke.
Buick 430 and 455
Pontiac 326, 350, 389, & 400
Chevy 307 and 327. 305 and 350. 396 and 427

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

Thats great Tim. Not sure why you mentioned the 307 though. Guess people just want to beat a dead horse but I've lost interest.

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

Stroke is not the only thing that dictates torque production.

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

I had and bought new a 1978 C10 with a 305. At 66,000 miles the cam shaft failed, for some reason GM used soft steel and the cams wore out. I had the camshaft replaced. 12,000 miles later that 305 started burning a lot of oil.
All said I have a bad taste for the 305. But if you have one and it runs good drive it.
A year after I sold the truck I found out GM had a recall for the camshaft defect, so I submitted my repair receipts and GM reimbursed me.

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

Umm, he asked why everyone hates the 305 or swaps them out. I simply gave one reason. So the way I see it, this thread is exactly on track with my comments.

Yeah apparently some people's idea of how good a 305 tow's is WAY different than mine. I'm sure they can pull something. Just don't be in front of me when we hit the next hill, lol.

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

I never said it was. But I have enough experience to know that a longer stroke in a heavy vehicle puts you ahead of the "torque production" game.

Back in the day you could get a truck with a 307 but the experts at GM decided that the 305 was a better engine. There is no reason to not use a 305 in a truck unless you are doing some heavy hauling and in many cases even the 350 wont be up to the task. For a daily driver, like mine, there is really no reason to go to a bigger engine. THe only reason I would do it is costs. It`s actually cheaper to buy a 350 crate engine than to rebuild a 305. Hell the 305 long block from GM cost more than their 350 crate. Doesnt make a lot of sense there but thats what it is.

This isnt rocket science guys. Some of you just seem to want to argue over nothing. Someone disagrees with you so you argue to prove a point. no possible way the 305 could be a decent engine, right? Whatever. Go ahead, put a large bore short stroke engine in your 5000lb truck and enjoy it. I`m plenty happy with my 305 and not that I got the carb rebuilt and everything is working as it should it makes plenty of power and brings in some decent mileage.

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

Don't let it get to you.

There will always be people who think 305 = garbage, no matter how eloquent or convicing your argument may be. This industry has about a 2:1 ratio of bad information to good information, so it's no surprise how many myths are out there.

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

Relax, no one is arguing anything here that I've seen. Just simply stating some opinions as to what the OP originally asked. Oberon is the one asking but you seem to be taking offense to it. It's all good bud. You have one so you're a little bias, that's okay. If you're happy with your 305 that's all that matters. Just because some of us don't want one doesn't mean it's a horrible engine, never said it was. ;)

Re: Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?
 

What gets to me is all of the bigger is better crap. Not everyone needs the biggest engine possible. Sure in a perfect world we can have it all. I went through this same stuff with my 327 build back in the 90`s. 383`s were just starting to get popular enough that you didnt have to cut down 400 cranks anymore so people started building them expecting all the power in the world. It was fun beating a lot of them with my little 327.

I`m not taking offence to anything. I`m simply trying to stop the bashing of any of these engines anytime someone asks about something other than a 383 or LS. I`m not bias towards any engine. I just cant see trashing a perfectly good engine. Yeah, I have one but as soon as I can afford a bigger engine its getting swapped. I`m not saying the 305 is the best in the world and we all should have one but from my experience a majority of the bashers of anything are repeating stories they have heard and dont really have first hand knowledge.

One of the reasons I came back to this site from a very good performance site is anytime someone asked about something that wasnt the "in thing" they were trashed and made to feel like they were scum for even asking about it. This site never use to be that way, which is why I came back, but I see it slowly getting there.