Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

Hey all! On my previous thread I mentioned phase 2 of the build would include suspension and possibly moving the gas tank.

So here we are! About an hour into the job and bed is already apart. I engineered it to come apart with a few bolts. Good job past-me. :metal:

First question for the forum, before I blow into the 3-link rear setup from RideTech, is.... do I need to weld a support to the axle and frame to keep the axle in the same position, or can I simply take the current suspension all apart and start installing the 3 link? I don't want to have to modify the driveshaft now that I have it dialed in. I'm guessing since the RideTech 3 link is a bolt-in, the spacing geometry for the rear axle is probably pretty much set anyway.

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The goal for this winter is getting the whole truck on an accuair e-level bag kit along with the ridetech 3 link rear and 2" front drop spindles. The build may mean I have to move my gas tank and do an underbed install. That is yet to be determined.

Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

its not. the way I always start installing 3 or 4 links is to run some strap from the frame to the axle and tack weld it in place, then jack up the truck and take the springs off. this keeps the ride height, wheelbase, and pinion angle set. when you install the lower bars you will spin the bushings until the bars are exactly the right length to bolt on, then bolt them on. install the upper wishbone and spin the bushing till its exactly the right length, then bolt it on. then cut the tacks and cycle the suspension up and down. aside from a minor change to fix the pinion angle (which might go wonky at full drop) which is done by adjusting the top bar length, you will likely be ready to tighten the jam nuts and go.

the ridetech 3 link uses the stock gas tank crossmember and there really isnt a need to move the tank unless you just want to. and by want to, I mean you want to see it under the bed when you walk up to the truck from a distance, want to see the filler in the bed floor, and want to remove anything you have in the bed to fill the tank. :lol: just kidding, do what you like!

Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

yep, I'm with joedoh, he nailed it. tack weld some straps in place first. just don't put the ground on the frame and then weld to the axle because the ground current can cycle through bearings etc and ruin stuff. ground on frame for frame stuff, ground on axle housing for axle housing stuff.
oh, and post pics, lol

Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

ooh glad I posted then. I can sit the bed back on to put some weight on the axle again and weld it on. Didn't think of current draw. Now that the truck is actually wired up (except the battery of course) I should make sure I'm not welding and creating a current through the electrical system. That'll cause a nice crispy 12ga wiring harness!

Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

in the picture it looks as if you have the 4 leaf rear spring pack (3+overload), which are the "high rider" springs, but even if its the 3 leaf (2 springs + overload) putting the bed back on shouldnt be necessary because its not going to squat much. sit on the frame, see how much it drops, if its not significant then just go go go. or hire the wife to sit on it while you weld.

Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

Ouch...no updates guys. I've been working on about 1200 sqft of flooring in our house all winter which is much warmer than the garage. The wife got herself a new Audi A5 convertible so her baby needs its garage spot for the year. The truck may just end up buttoned back together for spring as my 16yr old is getting her license soon and I've offered for her to buy my daily for $1000. Don't need the cash, but if she can save that much, maybe she can afford to actually own a car, insure it, and maintain it. That means "Will" may become my daily for a few months before I find myself something new. Considering a 5.0l F150.

Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

Spring is here. The 5.0L F150 arrived about 6 weeks ago, so now I'm officially a "truck" guy with my new truck and my old truck. After deliberating how to install everything over the winter, I made no progress at all. I spent a Friday evening in the garage and Will was back up and running again. Felt good to get out for a spin :)

Trying to figure out how to break this project into smaller chunks. A friend of mine said try to make it a project I can do in a weekend and be back on the road by Monday. I'm also not entirely sure I have what I need to do the front suspension. Trying to figure out the A arms I should get up front and how to do a shock mount also. Finally, trying to figure out if I need to do a 2" drop spindle or keep the stock spindle for an airbag setup.

So many questions!

Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

I would hit up the S10 forums somewhere. I am sure it is documented. Congrats on the new F150. I drive an expedition now but I have been eyeing them. I want the 5.0L as well. I am not sold on the turbo V6.

Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

We have both engines at the office. Most people like driving the V6 and it has slightly better tow ratings than the 5L. MPG is negligible between the two. The biggest reason I went 5.0 is our 3.6L turbo trucks have had about 10 different exhausts and they all sounds like crap. Even our Raptor with the same turbo engine sounds like a Honda right from the factory.

I decided if I wanted a truck, it has to sounds like a truck.

Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

5 minutes a day...well, ok its been 5 minutes for a few weeks. But I'm excited that I now have working Classic Instruments Gauges. They fit just fine and wired right up. I love that they are programmed with a tiny button in the back so the front still looks completely old school. Decided to install the programmer button in the original hole for the Choke pull. Might see if I can get the old "C" button I have kicking around and attach it to the programmer button. That'd be pretty trick :)

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Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

Really nice choice on the gauges. Signed up to follow this build!

Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

Baby steps. Working on air compressor fitment right now. I'm planning on putting the air tank and e-level controls behind the passenger seat in the cab.

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Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

Very excited about my find today. While trying to figure out my air tank placement, I decided I just wanted a nicer seat and see what I could find. After a few weeks of searching I uncovered a brown leather rear set from an F150 platinum edition. Darn seats are nicer than my daily driver! So now we're taking a turn on this build because once those seats are in, I'm going to want to really dress this truck up and make it mint! Probably have the seats in by the end of the weekend cause I'm too excited about them! Came with the three headrests and the center one is super short. I'm going to see if I can make all three super short to match the low seat look of the classics.

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Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

Already semi-placed in. Oh man is it comfy! Accelerator pedal angle is much better now and the seat is a bit lower than the original. Immediate problem is exactly what I avoided when originally building the cab. I didn't center the steering wheel between the gauges and kept the stock notch. Now when I sit, I'm not centered with the steering column. Oh well, another project to play with.

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Also playing with an install of a flush mount gas tank filler thanks to the orange peel build thread! Fab work is fun!


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Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

Nice score on the seat

Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

More progress. Moving quicker now that I have an idea of where the seat is going to go. Bulk heads installed in the cab and running a few lines from the compressor to the tank and water trap. Time to start running wires and testing the system. Last step is to actually do the suspension since I'm trying to do as much as I can while keeping the truck on the road.

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Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

I had made so much progress on getting the air ride internal mechanism setup that I decided after a nice drive today to just tear into it and get-r-done! Sitting on jack stands, emptied the gas tank, cut off the bump stops, and welded support rods to the axle and frame so I can remove the rear leaf springs. No turning back now!


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Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

Moving right along. Had to cut the U-bolts off the springs because those bolts would not budge! Got them out with the stock shocks also. Problem I ran into already is I wasn't confident about my struts I welded in temporarily, so I put a jack stand under the S10 tire carrier cross brace. Turns out, that was a blessing because the passenger side did not stay where it should have. I'll have to deal with how to square the rear end properly now that its off :(

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RideTech 3 link says bolt on. They are pretty much right. The install instructions and pictures are pretty hopeless, but things kind of made sense as I went. First issue I've bumped into is that the stock brake hose that is connected to the frame is right where I need to install the top suspension cross bar.

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Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

Successful weekend of building... he's on the bags and struts now. Seeing a few minor issues with the struts. Its sitting on them compressed instead of the axle hitting the frame. Pretty sure I could go even lower with slightly shorter shocks. Will need to figure it out because I'm not quite on the ground yet. Probably have about 1.5" to go.

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Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

its the shocks. the sleeve bags do not have internal bump stops like double convoluted bags do, so its really important not to go too low on them, and you are right you have a little more squish left. I changed the rear shocks to a long travel shock from a jeep, I think they were 26" extended and 18" compressed. it required changing the shock mounts.

also on sleeve bags you need to have an upper limiter too, which is another reason ART uses those specific monroe shocks. do not overfill the rear bags without some way to limit the up travel, they tear pretty dramatically.

make sure your driveshaft isnt cramming itself into the trans too, the arc on the ART bolt on 3 link can do that.

Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

Interesting about the upper limit. I was jacking the truck back up and noticed there was no real limit to pulling on the rear bags. Do you just install a chain or something to limit the max height?

Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

most times its the shocks that limit up travel, but firestone puts a sticker on the top of the bag that says to use a limiting strap or other device.

Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

Thanks for the heads up. Will jack it up manually and measure the limits to get the right limiting strap. I have found a couple 15" ones for off-road use, but that might be a bit long based on your posted dimension.

Got some bag plates today (didn't realize RideTech gives you them). Got a nice surprise from the eBay seller to add to the truck somewhere. This is fun :) Thinking of welding it to the side of the hood hinge. Lots of F bombs getting thrown when the hood is up haha.

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Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

Onto the front end. What a huge PITA this was to get off. I banged about for about an hour before the suspension dropped out. Every bolt was rusted. Bushings all look cracked. I don't even want to put it back together with the same hardware even though I only have the upper A arms at this point for the install. Looks like I also need to invest in some really good degreaser.

Going to research new bushings and hardware for the front end while its all blown apart. I'd like to only have to do this once!

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Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

the money you save on buying just lower balljoints and bushings isnt enough in my opinion for the time spent installing them. order loaded lower control arms instead, from moog problem solvers (the r series is ok too) it works out to a difference of 40 bucks a side vs just ordering bushings and balljoints. even if you flip a local guy with a press 20 bucks to do the switching for you, is it worth the 60 to degrease and paint and everything?

just 2 pennies of opinion, do whatever you want to.

my wife doesnt understand why I do my own front end work, I get so dirty and frequently angry at how stuck together everything is, but she doesnt really see that I am putting together new parts and that is easy and clean and satisfying.

Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

I'm getting the feeling you're right just digging into this.i think stock lowers are about 80 bucks a side. I've probably spent 20 on degreaser so far lol. I started dehumping them today. Do you suggest I quit while I'm ahead and just order two new Lowers to cut up?

Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

yeeeep. as long as you get good ones you will not regret it


are you sure you need dehumped?

first, take the springs out, put everything back together, lay the truck "out" either by putting the wheels on and letting the jacks out till it is as low as it can get, or you can leave the truck in the air and jack the control arm up until the bottom of the tire is level with the running boards (use a 2x4 or long level clamped to the running board). if the tire gets there, you dont need dehumped. the reason I say to put it all back together and lay it out is because sometimes the weight will get you there.

if it doesnt, look carefully at the camber of the wheel. it may be extremely negative, and if you used drop spindles it would improve dramatically (and would probably lay out). if you dont want drop spindles look at the tie rods, it may be the tie rods hitting the frame, which would also be helped by drop spindles but you could also notch for them. if its not the tie rods it MAY need dehumped. but because the frame is above the running boards, that is really important, getting an s10 to lay out is really hard when you have to lay frame but getting CLOSE is almost always light years easier.

also, I have said this before in other threads but its always worth repeating. make sure you set the bag up to squish out the last breath of air just as the truck lays out. it should be around 3 - 3.5 inches of space between the cups. if you set it up too close, the truck wont lay out. and if you set it up too far apart, it will take more pressure to get the truck to start "moving", because that extra space is just air volume. I have seen guys lock an s10 front suspension up on 75psi and guys that needed 110 psi to get to ride height. its all about the cup spacing, they sell cups that are one size but its up to YOU to measure and cut them down if needed based on your suspension and ride height and tire diameter. I used to run all thread with nuts welded at 3.25 inches and big flat washers to estimate.

Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

Lots of really good info. Thank you!! I was mostly reading about bagging on S10 forums. So far I'm only about an inch from laying running boards in the rear without a notch, so I'm already in good shape :)

Does this mean I don't have to cut the spring pocket on the frame either? I'll get the arms ordered soon so I can start there.

As for cups and plates, I'm still confused as to what needs to go into the stock lowers and the spring pocket on the frame so the bags aren't rubbing on anything. I bought an eBay kit that came with an upper cup that seems to fit perfectly in the spring pocket without the bag rubbing. The lower plate is angled, so I lose a little height but it does setup the bag angle pretty nicely.

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Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

Took your suggestion. Bolted my stock lower and my ridetech upper together with the stock spindle. Loosely bolted.

I jacked the wheel up until the lower arm bump stop hit the frame. The running board lines up with the wheel rim. So I have about 3" of tire below that to figure out. I could get an inch out of removing the bump stop, but it looks like the entire bag would just about have to fit into the spring pocket. It sounds like your suggestion of a 2" drop spindle would get me to a perfect height where the rear is an inch off the ground, and the front with a 2" drop spindle should be about an inch off the ground :)

Here's some pics just in case I'm explaining poorly

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Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

the bumpstop unbolts with a 14 (15?)mm, and will let the suspension collapse more than another inch because of the geometry of the arm. (and the bumpstop is more than an inch tall too). I take those bumpstops out even with 2" drop springs or they will jounce.

I havent ever used a cup kit on an s10 that wasnt upper and lower cups, yours is a lower plate, which I have seen guys just plate their lowers and run an upper cup when running 20" wheels and big tires to lay frame. not saying it wont work, I am just saying I have never used that style. you may need to cut the lower arm to clear your bag style, bolt the bag in and squish it down completely flat, no touching anywhere when compressed is the goal.


same with the upper pocket, no rubbing. what front bags are you running? the small firestones shouldnt need the spring pocket cut but everything else should need some trimming. there are things such as offset upper cups that push the bag away from the inner pocket, usually needed with big bags like RE/SS7s. those bags need a lot of spring pocket trimming.

the coil pocket is very deep, the stock coils are about 8 inches tall (compressed) when installed so if you take up an inch at the bottom, roughly 3 inches for a compressed bag, that still leaves a 4" tall upper cup, which it looks like you have.

it may feel like you are swimming in mud but keep your eye on the hard targets, get the tire where you want it when laid out, and make sure there is only a squished bag between upper cup and lower arm in your case.

since there is no "one size fits all" cup length for your particular "layed out height/tire size" you may have to put in, measure, take out, trim, put in, measure, take out, trim, etc several times until it fits exactly. over trimming the cup leaves extra volume in the bag and wastes lift with extra pressure.

a 2" drop spindle coupled with taking out the bumpstop (not dehumping) would put the running boards on the ground quite firmly, in my opinion.

Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

Awesome info! ok, so one step at a time for me then.

Will take the bumpstop out. Didn't even think of geometry since the bump stop is further up the arm. I may get my 2" out just doing that.

I'm going to order cups. My issue with the plate I got is that its a weld in piece. It leaves a cavity under the plate for dirt and crap to end up in there. With cups, at least it can all be switched out and replaced if ever needed.

I'll keep y'all posted on how it goes!

Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

Update to end the day. Ordered some lower arms and removed the bump stop while testing. I am able to get it down to just the tread of the tire. I'm very happy with that since I think the weight of the car will squish the tire enough that I'll be sub 1" from the ground laid out. Now to figure out how to fit the spring up in that pocket since I see daylight through about an inch opening between the lower and the stock spring pocket haha. I'll start by cutting the spring pocket and see where things are rubbing. I read somewhere that if I can work out one side, I can create a cardboard template and just transfer it to the otherside so they are symmetrical. Not that anyone will ever notice.

Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

I bet you are right on the squish. the bag will fit inside the pocket so you dont need to really carve the opening out unless you are using big bags that balloon a lot. usually just cutting the lip (dont forget to grind down that one in the back of the pocket!) is enough. also, dont leave angled corners where you cut, make a smooth radius, an angle corner will be a stress point.

good luck!

Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

If it makes a difference, I checked my front bags. They are Firestone RideRite 224c bags. Looks like they are 2600lb equivalent and max diameter is 7.5". 3" minimum and 9" maximum height.

Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

yeah you will need to trim a bit for them, they balloon when inflated. good bags for the front though.


here is a bit of interesting history: there is no such thing as a "2600 lb bag". sure thats what everyone calls it, but the reason why is, back in the mid 90s when airbags were getting popular, a company called Aim Industries was one of the first to mainstream "kits", but they had a hard time getting people to understand that a firestone 255c was actually smaller than a firestone 224c. both double convoluted, similar load, but the volume of the 224c was larger and therefore had a lower spring rate, which rode better, if you could get them to fit (believe it or not S10s were not popular at all in the mid to late 90s) so they started marketing them as "2500 lb" and "2600 lb" airbags. it stuck, even though the load specs are higher than that, and every bag company from then on started listing them in those terms. even slam specialties, the re5 is a 2500 lb comparison, the re6 a 2600 lb... and so on.

just a bit of history.

Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

That is pretty cool history! I had no idea. I had some slam 6 bags and replaced them based on the recommendation of this forum to go for the 2600lb bags. Found a set locally for I think $90 for the pair. I'll keep playing the cup I have and see if I can find lower cups also. Not really sure how tall I need the lower cups if I'm not dehumping and it also seems lower cups need to be welded in also. I thought they were bolt in.

Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

I like slams. the best riding truck I ever had was RE7 fronts and ART 3 link rear with sleeve bags on an S10 frame. firestones are good too, the only thing is that they balloon (expand diameter) when aired up so you have to be REALLY careful to be clear. slams and some others dont balloon. the air lift dominators and (L)Aim denominators balloon like a bouncy castle.

the upper cups will bolt in just for ease of install, but the weight of the truck will locate the lower cups, you shouldnt need to weld them in. I used to use neumatics (I think they closed) and they were bolt in. I think I have a set of bolt in lowers actually, that got replaced when I went to MMW arms.

Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

First side is cut. I have 9" of clearance front to back and cut 3" up. All seems to fit nicely, but I have just noticed there is no where to have the air line exit the upper cup. Suggestions on that one?


As for the lower section, the plates are too low so I need cups. My measurement suggests I need at least a 1.5" tall cup so the bag clears the humps in the lower control arm. Does that sound about right?

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Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

see that hole in the frame behind the pocket? there is also another hole on the top of the frame a little further back, in case your shock relocator end up on the side there. so running the airline through the frame is all right.

everything looks ok. as long as you have it measured right you should be fine.

Re: Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.
 

Found the aforementioned hole. I decided to cut up some fuel line and create some grommets around the holes. I also did the same for the hole that goes into the upper cup. Progress has been slow this week. Seems everything is fighting me a little with fitment. Today I tried to install the "bolt in" RideTech shock relocator brackets. Turns out they are not bolt in. Drilled and taped some holes so I'm off to the hardware store again tomorrow to get some M8 1.25 bolts.

Waiting on lower control arm to arrive, lower bag cups, 3/4" ptc air connectors for the front bags.

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