camaro clip crooked?
 

HI everyone dont hate on me too bad. i followed the no limit video exactly and seems like my gaps behind engine is not the same on both sides and its off towards drivers side as far as it can go? frame clip on crooked even though i double checked measurements ? i didnt fully weld clip it up fully yet so i can pull it back apart. i have another full subframe should i do the underneath the frame method as there seems to be enough frame section to redeem myself.
https://i.ibb.co/5nffjsd/image.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/BTQshjW/image.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/DQJ4JZg/image.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/BrMPyz2/image.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/ZY4fzKH/image.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/Xsm1HP5/image.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/sj4Hqm5/image.jpg

sorry johdoh for deleting i posted in build instead of here.

Re: camaro clip crooked?
 

no worriies. on a sbc (and really most V engines) the passenger valve cover is about an inch further back. here are two more pictures to show you, the first is the intake showing the passenger side is shifted back and the second is as close as I could get to a top down view as possible with a two minute google search. BBPanel and Black sheeps can easily be seen to have this same 1" difference once you adjust your eyes to the engine layout.

if you want a straight reference, use the parting line between the trans and the block. not the valve covers.

Re: camaro clip crooked?
 

Why do you think there is a problem? If it's just the space behind the engine, that's normal. Measure a few points on the subframe to the truck frame on each side and wheel base on each side. Center of front wheel to back wheel. The heads on the engine are not straight across from each other.

Re: camaro clip crooked?
 

jodoh i will do just that with trans block parting line.PDW it just doesnt seem right .will measure everything again.
https://i.ibb.co/5B11Cj5/20201019-120927.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/k8y6mGY/51357631-20...49484032-n.jpg 2 pics here look fairly even gap both sides.

Re: camaro clip crooked?
 

Did you remove the clip from the donor or was it already removed? +

simply meaning that it may have been tweaked to begin with if you didn't see the donor vehicle.

I'd measure from set points on the subframe to set points on the frame that are even with each other on both. Meaning holes or spots on each that match on both sides.
This is how my buddy installed a number of Camaro clips on TF trucks. This one was going to be seriously low though. Main thing is that the bottom of the subframe rail is parallel with the bottom of the truck frame rail https://photobucket.com/u/mr48chev/a...2-85910f302fb5

I figured out that it works best to block your subframe up at it's stock ride height which has the bottom of the center of the crossmember about 6-1/2 inches off the shop floor and have the back legs level on the bottom and then with the truck frame level you block it up at the ride height you want to end up with and then mate the two.

Re: camaro clip crooked?
 

if you look at BBPanel and BlackSheep engiines, and draw straight lines on them, you can see they have the same clearance as yours, with the passenger valve cover further back. Black Sheeps is a little misleading because the EGR tube kind of looks like the back edge of the valve cover, but its not. also BBP looks to have a differently shaped firewall to accomodate? maybe thats how a V8 firewall looks, even s10s have a crooked firewall for the passenger V6 valve cover.

Re: camaro clip crooked?
 

could be much to do about nothing as they say.lol i am just fussy too.

Re: camaro clip crooked?
 

before you get all wired up and cut stuff apart. do a cross dimension on the stock part of the frame. from corner to corner so to speak. the front is already lopped off so pick spots on the original part of the frame that will be the same on both sides and use a non stretchable tape measure. some fiber tapes will have some stretch to them and some regular tapes have a movable tip because the rivets allow that. in that case the dimension can be off whether you pull on the tape end or push on the tape end. anyway, long story short, be sure the original part of the frame is square FIRST. next, block it up at the rake angle you want. check that with a digital level because the old bubble levels are only gonna get you close and also depend upon the angle that you are looking at them. a digital will get you within a tenth of a degree if you want. a digital torpedo level can be placed op top of a 4 ft level or some other straight edge and they usually have a magnetic base area. check the frame side to side and block it securely. next drop a plumb bob to the floor and put some marks down from identical places along the original frame on both sides. do the same from identical spots on the clip. now use the laser on your digital level, or a string line, to connect the dots and draw some lines fore to aft that will extend the original frame lines out past the front of the truck. now see if the front clip is parallel to your original frame or not and also see if it is centered side to side by comparing the drop points from the clip to the original frame lines on both sides. draw a line across at 90 degrees to your original frame and measure dimensions from that line to the drop points from your clip as well so you can see if it is square with the original frame. once you figure your clip is square then use the level to see if the clip is sitting level across the lower control arm pivots, fore to aft. the clip needs to be sitting level and at the ride height it was made for in order to have the suspension and steering geometry work as intended. I usually block the suspension at ride height , with the full weight of the complete car on the suspension, with some threaded rod through the shock mounts before I take the clip out of the original car for that reason. the springs can be adjusted later with the full weight of the new vehicle on the clip in order to keep the suspension at it's intended ride height, or at least close.
thats just what I would do. it's your truck, you decide. you need a good foundation to build on so get it right the first time. again, my opinion, your truck.

Re: camaro clip crooked?
 

thanks dsraven.lots of measuring ahead.

Re: camaro clip crooked?
 

I would not used your cab to engine measurement to tell if you clip is crooked. Measure and re measure your clip to frame . Make sure neither has ever been tweeked or wrecked. Measure every way you can length , width , triangulate diagaonal and more. If unsure take it to a shop with a frame machine. Your key is the frame . If you using cab to engine gaps to determine if your frame is correct that may be bad recipe.

Kind of like this . If you ever build a house or shop with and unsquare basement or foundation it will cause problems all the way to top of the house. Good luck.

Re: camaro clip crooked?
 

Thanks paul. i downloaded a frame drawing/blueprint to reference from.

Re: camaro clip crooked?
 

Next all the guys with Ford 9-inch rear ends will be thinking their frame is off-center... :lol:

Re: camaro clip crooked?
 

yes the pinions on those are offset.

Re: camaro clip crooked?
 

After reading this I went out and measured. Holding a straight edge against the end of the valve cover and measuring from it to the firewall there is 1/2" to 5/8" difference between the drivers side and passenger side. The drivers side being farther. There does not appear to be much, if any cylinder head offset from side to side on a BBC. A lot of cars have the engine offset towards the passenger side to allow more clearance for the steering column and steering gear.

Re: camaro clip crooked?
 

there is the same difference on a big block chevy, and really this will be on almost every V engine no matter what make or model or size, V2 V4 V6 V8 V10 V12 ford chevy dodge toyota from the inception of the V engine to current production.

its because the rod end journals cant occupy the same space on the crank, so one rod journal will ALWAYS be behind the other, so the opposing cylinders will be offset that width of the journal. you can see it in the picture I posted of the sbc intake, and here is a bbc intake for comparison.

https://www.gmperformancemotor.com/m...61_540x338.jpg

this is true but isnt what he is talking about. all the other advice he is getting in the thread is also true but isnt why he started it.

he is thinking his clip is crooked because the passenger valve cover is closer to the firewall than the drivers. this is an inherent offset of a V engine, all of them have it.

instead of measuring for crooked from the firewall/valve covers, which on stock TF looks to have a recess for this offset, I told him the parting line on the engine/trans is perpendicular to the centerline of the engine, and to use it. it wont be perfect because the engine mounts will have a little wiggle room in them, but if you look down from the front edge of the cowl seam which SHOULD be perpendicular to the centerline of the frame (again, there could be wiggle room for body mounts) at the parting line of the trans it may bbe enough to pull him down from the ceiling thinking the clip is crooked.

Re: camaro clip crooked?
 

If you have any questions about how straight your frame is, here you go!
Click on the link for your "Basics of Basics" on using a tram gauge for measuring.

https://www.hotrodders.com/threads/b.../#post-2549442

Brian

Re: camaro clip crooked?
 

thanks for your input brian.

Re: camaro clip crooked?
 

hey everyone.MARTINSR i made tram gage based on what you posted from 1/2 conduit. here are some points i measured on truck frame and camaro clip. i measured from leading edge of holes be ok do you think? cab mounts and rivets are one point to go by based on frame drawing some have posted around the forums. i went by some other holes in crossmembers and frame to shock mount s very little to no variation on measurements. will do some more cross measuring.
https://i.ibb.co/gRtbFGR/image.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/rkXBwh2/image.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/DQMyDcc/image.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/ZJ5nyyc/image.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/DQMyDcc/image.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/MSdZgJC/image.jpg

Re: camaro clip crooked?
 

check this at about post 5. frame dimensions and factory check points for square check.

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=401989

Re: camaro clip crooked?
 

or here under the chassis frame section

https://www.trifive.com/d1/55-59Assy.pdf

Re: camaro clip crooked?
 

great looking tool you built. gonna be handy. maybe keep it for other checks and alignments when you're done this little job.

Re: camaro clip crooked?
 

I think you are on the right path to getting it right.

I am assuming that you aren't intending to have the truck real low as it is going to sit up fairly high compared to most lowered trucks with a Camaro or Chevelle clip. You can figure that the middle of the crossmember will be abut 6-1/2 or 7 inches off the shop floor with all the weight of the truck on stock Camaro or Chevelle springs.

This is supposed to be the blueprint with measurements for a 56 3100 frame. it might give you some stock reference measurements if you need them.

Re: camaro clip crooked?
 

hey dsraven thanks for the links you posted.you are a great asset to this forum giving out lots of great help and insight. MARTINSR is one who posted link about gage and how to use it props to him for that! trammel/tram gage was easy to build 1/2" electrical conduit an old steel broom handle was good enough diameter to use to cut up for section that needs to slide. 3/8" dia round stock for pointer. I had to adjust mig welder as broom handle tubing is thin wall. hey
mr48chev i have full length bbc headers so not going super low. i have small computer in garage so i now have a 32" frame blueprint/frame drawing on the screen to look at thanks for pic. some of the body mounts and their rivet areas seem to be some good checking points. also back rivet on rear axle bump stop bracket is a reference spot for checking axle centerline.

https://i.ibb.co/XDYYg91/image.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/TWnphjg/image.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/RHnpJTf/image.jpg

Re: camaro clip crooked?
 

Sounds great.

Re: camaro clip crooked?
 

when I have done some corner to corner checks in the past, by myself because thats the way it goes, I have used an old piece of light dog chain I had laying around. I took a bolt that fit into a hole that was symetrical to both frame rails on each corner and would also be able to fit into a squashed end link in the chain. this allowed me to fit the bolt into the frame hole to secure one end of the chain. I could stretch the chain out to get a corner to corner dimension without a worry of someone holding the tape measure differently on the other end from one check to another and the chain doesn't stretch like some tape measures do (fiberglass tape style). as long as I pulled the chain tight I could mark a link and compare to the other side. if I wanted to get more accurate I could fasten a piece of flat bar to the chain, mark the bar at the dimension for each side and measure the difference. this theory could also be used on shorter runs like what is recommended in the shop/assembly manual if working alone.
the frame drawings are a little tough to figure out because to get a given dimension you have to find a couple of other dimensions and do some arithmetic (thats math for the younger guys, lol). you prolly already figured that out if you have the drawing up on your computer, lol.

Re: camaro clip crooked?
 

hi raven dont take this wrong by any means. can you elaborate about why you think the frame drawing would be tough? i used pointer from body mount rivet points in drawing and very little to no variation even when cross measuring

Re: camaro clip crooked?
 

Hey, no prob.
What I meant was the cross dimension check on the stock frame section could be tougher than normal because the front was lopped off so you gotta find/lock some different spots to first establish the stock part is straight and square, then pick some symmetrical points on the welded on clip and do more cross dimensional checks to make sure the clip is parallel to the old frame. It's all just arithmetic but if working off the drawing to figure out where the cab face is, rad support, bumper mounts etc then you have to find the right dimension points in the drawing and combine those because there isn't a direct number in the drawing for some dimensions that you need. Drawing is good, just not terribly straight forward.

Re: camaro clip crooked?
 

I assumed your next step after the crisis checking would be to find your other points for body mounts, their dimension from the cab face. The bumper mounts or end of frame dimension plus width, the axle centerline, the horizontal drop from the main frame to the rad support and bumper mounts. Stuff like that. The trammel works great to set a dimension but first you gotta do some figuring. I usually make a sheet of figures to work from so I can quick reference.

Re: camaro clip crooked?
 

yes lots more measuring today. :gi:

Re: camaro clip crooked?
 

looking at the pics you have posted I would say once you get the frame checks done you may want to think about a stout trans cross member to keep the frame rails from springing between the cab mounts. the old original cross member was pretty stout and also held the weight of the engine and trans since the engine was mounted at the front and then the bellhousing sat on the cross member leaving the trans hanging behind that. the original bellhousing, even for a v8 truck, was cast iron. possibly extend some frame boxing behind the welded on clip for strength and also to keep the frame from stress cracking at the welds where the clip goes from a fully boxed section to a channel section on the original frame. kinda hard to tell from the pics but it looks like that has been done on the pass side? keep in mind the issues this may make if you plan on a frame mounted brake booster. it seems like that frame transition area would be the weak link if there were to be one. frame flex will be the enemy here. a short boxed area would also lend itself to bolt on mounts for the trans cross member. just a thought.
nice job on the firewall from what is visible in the pics. I don't see a firewall brake booster hole but the pics may not go up far enough to see that.

Re: camaro clip crooked?
 

hi raven yes boxing frame as you mentioned. no limit way shows using a piece of left over frame to box it behind graft. i went one step further and had nicer fitting channel sections made that were longer. my older brother is a certifed welder with pipe fitters union local 56 he will do all structural welding on frame work when i am satisfied things are correct. thanks on comments on firewall. i learned to mig weld on my own been a great asset. i am using frame mount hydroboost as i wanted clean firewall look. it clears with channel sections in place they arent welded in yet .

Re: camaro clip crooked?
 

talked to rob at no limit and he verifed what others also mentioned i wont have even gap side to side between engine and firewall. for my own sanity i cut enough tack welds on frame so i could check anti dive angle again and tons of re measuring and everything looks back on track.

Re: camaro clip crooked?
 

I have a 56 chevy and used a camaro clip. I had to redo mine due to the fact the PO welded it in wrong and the wheelbase was wrong. Thus the engine hit the firewall. So in redoing mine I did mine the sandwich way and laid the truck frame over the camaro frame. When I measured mine I was 3/16 out of square. I read in a frame thread that OEM frames were nominal to 3/16 out. I know a lot of guys are fussy and are looking for perfect, and that's okay they should be. I looked at mine for a whole month and tried to get it dead on. I tacked it. measured. an was within the OEM spec. SO...I figure an alignment guy worth his salt can get it straight.

Re: camaro clip crooked?
 

One thing you want to be sure is make those measurements by a number of different points to be SURE it's just that 3/16" out and no more. Always measure by a few different points to guarantee you are seeing the numbers you need to see.

Brian

Re: camaro clip crooked?
 

Measured it diagonally from the front cab mount brackets to the upper control arm uprights. It is 3/16 out to the right. It stayed that way all the way thru final welding and I even checked it from control arm uprights all the way to the rear corners of the frame. It translates. I'm good with it!

Re: camaro clip crooked?
 

Hey MARTINSR i made tram gage as you have in you post worked out nice for all critical measurements . put my mind at ease!