cpp power steering play
 

I put the cpp power steering kit in my 59 and used the stock column. Power steering works just fine but there is a lot of play in it. when driving you have to constantly steer shifting the steering wheel a couple inches left and right. Is there a way to take out the play in the steering?

Re: cpp power steering play
 

Was the steering gear box changed? New rag joint? I am not sure on that steering gear box if it can be adjusted to tighten up the internal lash but maybe it can. Generally, make small adjustments and check to see if it gets better.

Rick

Re: cpp power steering play
 

You obviously need to figure out where the play is as the first step.

Did it drive Ok before the conversion? then the search narrows to the column modification, the ragjoint/ujoint, the new steering box, the new drag link, the pitman arm splines and the steering arm that bolts to left spindle.

If the driving state before is unknown then you also need to look at everything else: tie rods, spindles, king pins, spring bushings, tires and alignment

Re: cpp power steering play
 

steering gear boxes are made in such a way that the gears fit tightest exactly in the middle of their travel. this is so that when driving straight ahead there is really no gear lash or steering wheel slop. as you turn the wheel there is a little lash that will show up. this is so that the king pin inclination can help bring the wheel back to center when you are done turning a corner, you shouldn't have to work to bring the steering back straight. the first thing to look at is whether the gear bax is centered, lock to lock, when the wheels are straight ahead. simply jack up the front end and block it for safety, placing the blocks under the axle so the king pins become unloaded. then do a lock to lock steering wheel turn count, how many turns, then place the steering wheel in the center of that number, starting from one lock and turning back towards the other. try to hold it there with a helper or rope, bungee cord, whatever. now go outside and see if the wheels are pointing straight ahead.
now, since the axle is unloaded, grab a long prybar and place it under the tire. lift the bar and check the king pins for wear. both sides. when done grab the tire and push in at the top -out at the bottom to also check the kingpins for wear. next, move the tire back and forth as if making a turn to check for tie rod and drag link wear. finally, put the truck back on the ground and release the steering wheel. have a helper move the steering wheel play and check the steering gear output shaft bushing for wear, the gear back lash and visually check the tie rods and drag link for wear.
as a side, if the wheels were not pointing straight ahead with the box centered lock to lock, then you may need an adjustable drag link, if you don't already.

Re: cpp power steering play
 

Everything is new . Kingpins , adjustable drag link ,converted to ball joints , new rag joint . I centered the wheel as described when I put it together . When I'm driving around a slow corner all is fine but on straightways its most noticable . Just feels like too much play. Its not undrivable just not as much fun

Re: cpp power steering play
 

Did you check alignment? Toe and Caster mainly.
Camber just out of curiosity in case it has a bent axle

If everything is new then are you saying you do not believe there is any slop or play to anything? That points towards an alignment issue, probably caster.
You'd have to shim the axle at springs to change caster or change the stance of the truck.

Re: cpp power steering play
 

"converted to ball joints"

where are the ball joints?

Re: cpp power steering play
 

I meant the tie rod ends. I put in the more modern style https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4oygxvczEI

Re: cpp power steering play
 

check the steering wheel to ensure it is also tight on the steering column shaft and not messing you up

to adjust the steering gear, first center the steering box as mentioned before.
then, go under the hood and grab the steering column shaft rag joint at the box input. wiggle it back and forth while watching the pitman shaft/arm. see how much the input shaft moves before the pitman shaft starts to move. do this with the truck on the ground to load the steering so nothing really wants to move.
ensure the steering box is centered lock to lock
find the adjustment screw and lock nut, should be opposite the pitman arm on a small housing cap.
loosen the lock nut and hold with wrench
insert allen wrench or screw driver, whatever your adjustment screw style requires, into the adjusting screw head
use adjusting screw so adjust the freeplay in the steering gear lash. I like to mark that screw before I start so that I know it's original orientation. then only turn the screw about 1/8-1/4 turn at a time. check lash by turning the input shaft after each adjustment
this may take several adjustments to fine tune the gears the way you want it
when done to your satisfaction, hold the adjustment screw while tightening the lock nut
recheck to ensure that tightening the lock nut didn't mess with your previous work
turn the steering through a complete cycle, lock to lock, to ensure there are no tight spots or binding

when you tighten the adjusting screw you are actually forcing the pitman shaft's tapered gear further into the meshing area of the other gear inside the box. this tightens the lash between the gears. obviously, a little should go a long way so don't overdo it
check the steering box mounts, the cap on the housing of the steering gear to ensure it hasn't cracked or stripped at the adjustment screw hole, check for play in all of the moving parts in the steerng.
don't assume that because parts have been replaced they should be good. sometimes a tie rod taper is incorrect for the hole it fits into, sometimes they were not torqued correctly, not enough or too much, so the joint is tight but the tapered attachment is moving in the mount. sometimes new kingpins that seems tight have now worn in some and may have a little play. some new kingpin bushings are not a solid bushing like the old days. some are a bushing with a teflon wear surface and that surface may have "bumps" on it. it is common to have to ream the new bushings to fit the new pins after they are pressed in. frequently they feel tight at first but rapidly wear in to their "set point" and may have a little play. also check the adjustment sleeves on drag link and tie rod cross bar to ensure nothing is moving. it's good to have someone wiggleing the steering when you check for this

Re: cpp power steering play
 

also, check the rag joint connection to the steering gear input and the steering colum shaft, the slip area of the column shaft, if equipped, and the steering wheel torque/fitment onto the column shaft.

if it was tight befo0re and suddenly you have a bunch of play then it needs to be looked at CLOSELY

Re: cpp power steering play
 

A new box should not need adjusting for a long time, so think about warranty if it does turn out to be loose. I'd be more concerned about a new box that went out of adjustment than a box with years of use needing adjustment.

I assume this is a saginaw box, before doing the sector shaft preload dsraven describes you should adjust the end play in the steering shaft. This description looks good https://static.summitracing.com/glob...-283352_yk.pdf
The thrust bearings on steering shaft take a high load every time you turn the wheel

Re: cpp power steering play
 

Good point about the input shaft end play LG.
The entire steering system should be looked at closely.

Re: cpp power steering play
 

Check your idler arm is moving parallel to your pitman arm.

Re: cpp power steering play
 

Thanks all. I'll get under it this weekend and go over everything

Re: cpp power steering play
 

I did same setup you did. I did have to adjust the steering box and tighten it up from the factory setting. not a lot just a little but it did make some improvement.
The second thing is the alignment. if that toe is out especially it will be all over.
Getting the toe correct as well. Get under one hand on the pitman one on the steering shaft and have another do small movements left and right you can quickly tell if their is slop.

Re: cpp power steering play
 

got any pics of the actual set up? would be interesting to see how it looks.

Re: cpp power steering play
 

The part number of the kit would help too.

Still with a helper that can follow directions the first step is to have the helper gently and slowly rock the steering wheel back and forth while you check each and every connection visually and by feel for slack that shouldn't be there.

Re: cpp power steering play
 

Hello Popeyestruck.

I had the same problem on my 55 after my power steering conversion. It was my one and only attempt at this so I am no expert. At first I tried a steering damper on the tie rod. It helped but did not cure. That was 2013. Still looking for a fix, in 2016 I changed my caster pads from the stock 2 degree to 4 degrees and just that change made enough differents I could take the damper off. Just something else to consider.

Earl

Re: cpp power steering play
 

yes, as always, a proper wheel alignment, done by someone who knows their way around these old trucks, would be a good starting point. caster and toe in can make a big difference, after all the other checks for loose parts are done and back to spec. a steering gear adjustment as required, and spring pins/bushings have ben checked for wear. also, lets not forget the rear axle plays a part in steering too. loose rear spring pins/bushings/worn axle retainer clips can cause the rear axle to move which will affect the steering too. kinda like herding goats down a road, first they go left, then right. haha.

Re: cpp power steering play
 

you can do a search for "adding caster after going from manual to power steering" or something along those lines. You will see a lot of post about improvement. You wills see post of how it helps road wander. I even saw a post from a 50 year plus alignment guy who specialize in older straight axles.
He even went as to put a slightly different degree from one side to the other. Took the time to unbolt it over and over in test for cars and trucks he works on. You would not find that dedication in most modern shops. While getting that exact may not be needed in your situation.

based on my "research"

I do think adding caster is one of the most missed items in straight axle conversions to power steering of the older cars and trucks.

Its my next action on improving my steering in the next month or so on the 56.

Re: cpp power steering play
 

The root issue is that in 1955 they designed the trucks for bias ply tires. Bias plies are a stiffer construction and tend to feel self centering. These old trucks did not have power steering, less caster makes turning the wheel at low speed easier. These old trucks were also designed with an operating speed in the 30-50 mph range. So in 1955 caster of 1-2 degrees is typical.

Radial tires are not as stiff a sidewall, all manufacturers increased caster specs in the late 60s-early 70s as radials came into play.
The large steering wheel with PS will also affect how things feel to some extent

If your truck has any rake to the stance with the back higher than the front, that stance is taking away caster compared to factory, you need to compensate

check your caster is in the 2-4 range. as well as all the general mechanical condition, toe in, tire pressure stuff normal for doing an alignment

Attachment 2442743

Re: cpp power steering play
 

I should have tried to buy this chassis to put what I want to do for an interim truck together but didn't have my trailer empty when he had it for sale and I waited him out too long.

I'd change the tie rod some and use tie rod ends rather than Heim joints but I have been wanting to put a Cross steer setup together for AD trucks for a long time as that should eliminate a lot of the twitch that AD trucks have with the CPP power steering, This one has what looks like a Ford F 150 4x4 power steering box. A person should be able to use a C10 power steering box or manual box for cross steer though .

Re: cpp power steering play
 

Toe in is correct. The truck was original when I started still had the original u bolts rusted on the front springs. There was no shims so I left it that way . I was told with newer tires they wouldnt be needed. Should I add some 2 degree shims? No old timers doing alignment around here that I know of. The stance is original

Re: cpp power steering play
 

Probably.
But you should measure your caster as it sits now at ride height before making changes. There are two pads on the sides of spindle you can put a digital level on and quite easily get a reading.

everything is new, but did you actually go back over it all to check for play?

Re: cpp power steering play
 

No not yet . Ive checked what I can so far but waiting for someone to stop by to help with turning the wheel while I can look better. I'll pick up a digital level and check

Re: cpp power steering play
 

If you are power steering I would think you would need more like 4 degrees. (some guys have done more) but lee is correct measure it prior to adding. good news you can always start with one and switch to another.

Re: cpp power steering play
 

There is a HUGE difference between "something feels loose" than "it doesn't want to return to center and or doesn't track right. Caster on a I beam axle rig is going to do just a very few things.

1. the steering wheel returns to center when you come out of a turn and get on a straight stretch of road again. adding caster usually helps with this.

2. the truck doesn't track straight and want to wander a bit on a straight flat road. This is what we add caster shims in our AD trucks the most for. Get out on the long roads at road speed and you have to herd it all the time because it doesn't want to stay in it's lane/line. That's my 48 with too many leaves removed in the front end and that biggest shim Napa had isn't enough to get enough caster. Most of the time we pick the shim that sets the caster at the point where it still steers reasonably easily with manual steering but tracks great.

one thing I have found is that reverse wheels or extra wide tires hurt steering on AD I beam axles more than they help. I ran 14x7 Enkie 32s on my 48 for years with either 195 or 205 60 tires and you can tell the difference between the two steering going down the road. The wider 205 wants to wander a bit more.

Another thing is that disk brakes usually move your wheels and tires out a tad from the designated centerline for perfect king pin inclination and you end up with the wheel and tire again putting more leverage on the spindle than is perfect. This often means that you feel imperfections in the road more in the steering wheel than you want.

Re: cpp power steering play
 

here is a little blurb on steering with solid front axles

https://www.hotrod.com/how-to/0902sr...straight-axles

supplier for axle shims, basic ones are commonly used for large trucks etc but could easily be cut down to the size you need. other shapes are also available, as seen in the website pics. these can also be used to correct a poorly set up pinion angle on a rear axle, to match the ujoint angles on the front and rear of the driveshaft

https://www.spcalignment.com/tandem-axle-shims

one thing to consider is the tire size and wheel offset compared to the stock original specs. changes from that will change the steering feel. offset towards the outside of the truck will make the tires want to follow any cracks in the road surface or ruts in the road. shorter tire diameter also changes things as the new tread contact patch, under the tire, is in a different location than was intended.
here is a website that helps show these changes and gives the amount of angle changes etc.


https://www.wheel-size.com/calc/


hopefully something here helps. if you're gonna start changing things I suggest to do 1 thing at a time and test drive it to see if that 1 thing changed the situation. try to drive the same road under the same conditions (wet/dry/speed etc) and try to find a nice smooth flat road with a normal crown to the surface
nice diagram mr48

Re: cpp power steering play
 

IF you do start changing shims use the steel ones. They sell aluminum ones and other softer metals mainly used for racers or show cars. If you using it as a daily or live and drive on some really bad roads you will with steel.

Re: cpp power steering play
 

Good advice. Aluminum ones aren't good sandwiched between Steen cuz they corrode, dissimilar metals.

Re: cpp power steering play
 

I went through something similar recently when I replaced all of the steering and suspension components on my 55 Chevy BelAir. I had someone get in the car and crank the steering wheel back and forth while I layed under it. My center link where it attached to the pitman arm wasn't tight enough. it was crazy obvious. Once I tightened it everything waqs perfect.

Re: cpp power steering play
 

I figured it out. I ordered some shims and while waiting for them to be delivered I figured I'd just get under it and check for anything lose. Everything seemed tight so I jacked it up and could feel a little play in the wheel bearings so I tightened them just a bit more. I didn't have torque specs when I changed over to front disks so I just tightened the preload until they wouldn't turn the back them off just a bit. My feel might have been off that day or maybe they just didnt seat at first. Next problem I was getting an unbalanced tire feel at 50 and above. When I got new tires on they had balanced them but put them in place where they hit the caliper .So I pulled the wheel weights and added an equal amount of balance beads . The rims are 70's slots made for drums not discs. the fit was so tight I had to grind the caliper to get it to fit. So I took the truck back down to the tire store and had them remove my balance beads and put weights back on but in a place they wouldnt hit the caliper . Went for a drive today and truck drives great no wheel shake at high speed and no more wander on the steering. I still have the shims coming but I dont think I need them unless tire wear or something indicates otherwise. Right now I can drive straight with no hands and corner perfect. Sometime you overthink things I guess

Re: cpp power steering play
 

glad you got it figured out, and fessed up. haha

Re: cpp power steering play
 

Nice solve on the issue. What degree of shims did you use? Sorry reread and see you haven't used any other shims yet. I am going to be doing a similar set up so I am watching this thread.

Re: cpp power steering play
 

Great, I'd say you don't need the new shims but might later if the springs settle a bit.