Edelbrock Performer Manifold??

[MASTERBrian]

I have a few questions about this manifold. I'm getting ready to install it on my engine and I came across a few things that raised a few questions:

1) gaskets....I purchased a fel-pro gasket kit, which of course comes with intake gaskets, but something I was reading the paperwork that came with the manifold when I initially bought it 20yrs ago. It says 'Do not use non-embossed gaskets for street application and Do not use permatorque gaskets with aluminum intake manifolds.'

I'm guessing that they are embossed, since they appear to be cut from stamped 'steel' so that should be good, but how do I know if they are permatoque? Do I need to buy a special gasket or should the ones in the kit be ok?

2) what about the end gaskets, the black ones that go on front and back of engine? I had watched a you-tube a while ago and the guy building the motor said more often than not he gets leaks if he uses these, but NEVER gets a leak if he builds the dam out of black RTV. What gives?

3) on the above notes, I think I've heard not to use gaskets on intakes, only use RTV....thoughts here?

4) If I do use gaskets do I put anything on top or below them? The videos seem to show only around the water jackets.

5) regarding the bolts, I think I also saw something regarding use of special bolts for aluminum intake mani's. I bought new Mr. Gaskets bolts with flat style washers....I think I'm good, but please correct if not before I open and can't return them. My old ones were gold and I wanted silver.

6) last but not least, there is another thread and someone mentioned cutting out the divider on the manifold to that poster....makes me curious about this.
My motor is a street motor only. It has flat top pistons 60over, compression should be about 9:1 (I thought 10:1, but machinist said not according to paperwork he did 20yrs ago). I'm running isky 270/280 cam advanced 4* at chain, balanced motor and some valve work. I don't have great heads, just basic stock chevy heads. The carb is a 1405 600cfm and the mani is of course like I said a 20yr old performer. I'll also end up running headers with dual exhaust, flowmaster mufflers and probably install an H-pipe if they are worth it. Rear end is either 3.90 or 4.11 and I'm undecided if sticking with turbo 350 or upgrading to 700r4.

Will notching this intake prior to bolting it down help? Some other thread I read said buy a spacer first, but my understanding is the spacers help with higher RPM and I'm looking for low end power.

Thanks for anything....

[MASTERBrian]

No replies, but I think I got my answers. Edelbrock seems to state NOT to use the end gaskets and I read that felpro blue gaskets are ok. Since the engine is red, I think I'll build the dam's out of RED RTV and hope for the best.

As for notching the intake, I seem to get the replies that not helpful for lower torque power and that's what I care most about since I won't be hitting drag-strip with this vehicle.

[storm9c1]

Throw away the china wall gaskets and use a thick bead of "Right Stuff (black)". Put a dab on the intake bolts too, on the threads, closer to the head of the bolt. Or use non-hardening Permatex on the threads.

[MASTERBrian]

Originally Posted by storm9c1

Throw away the china wall gaskets and use a thick bead of "Right Stuff (black)". Put a dab on the intake bolts too, on the threads, closer to the head of the bolt. Or use non-hardening Permatex on the threads.

So using the red is bad? I guess the manifold it's painted flat black, so either is fine. Not sure if I have Amy black left, but I'm sure the parts store still has some.

For the threads I have permatex thread sealant, can't recall what exact name is, but machinist said use on any threads going into water jacket.

[RDrancher]

Originally Posted by storm9c1

Throw away the china wall gaskets and use a thick bead of "Right Stuff (black)". Put a dab on the intake bolts too, on the threads, closer to the head of the bolt. Or use non-hardening Permatex on the threads.

Yes, and a little dab in the corners too. This video shows it well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wVL0cjGmdI

[storm9c1]

Originally Posted by RDrancher

Yes, and a little dab in the corners too. This video shows it well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wVL0cjGmdI

Yep, perfect. I use brake cleaner on a rag instead of acetone or thinner since it dries faster and leaves no residue. I also prefer Right Stuff instead of that red silicone. But those are minor details.

[MASTERBrian]

Done and done. He threw me a bit with the high temp silicone, which is what the red says, but since everyone says black and black lists intake and red doesn't.

The part I hate is, and I should have thought about, is that I can't get my torque wrench into the 1,2,3,4 bolts, but I feel fairly confident my hand torque is up to specs. Or at least very, very close. I tested several on the outer bolts and got them to torque doing the same.

Is there a trick to this?

[GASoline71]

Torque a bolt to 30 ft lbs. That is the torque for an old SBC manifold. Then see how much it takes to back it off with a regular wrench. Then pull the bolt back tight with your wrench where you think 30 ft lbs would be. Then hit it with your torque wrench to see how close you are.

For the sake of argument... I haven't torqued the fasteners on a SBC intake manifold in 30 years. Just set 'em tight. But not gorilla torque tight. But I've been doing it for a long time so I have a decent feel for it.

Gary

[MASTERBrian]

Paperwork from Edelbrock says 25 ft lbs, so that is what I did.

Just pulled it tight with wrench, then did same to the next one, if it went tighter with torque wrench I went back until I had same feel.

If I have issues, I guess I'll redo it later on. Obviously not that much work on these old sbc's. More than I want to do, but not bad....

[crazy longhorn]

On the spacer, I would opt for a 4 hole spacer, for the low rpm help. as a rule, the open spacers lend to top end power. I wont promise you this, it is a try it & play deal! What I will flat stand on, is that if you cut the divider in the manifold, it will be much harder to fix, than just tossing that 20 dollar spacer Longhorn

[MASTERBrian]

Originally Posted by crazy longhorn

On the spacer, I would opt for a 4 hole spacer, for the low rpm help. as a rule, the open spacers lend to top end power. I wont promise you this, it is a try it & play deal! What I will flat stand on, is that if you cut the divider in the manifold, it will be much harder to fix, than just tossing that 20 dollar spacer Longhorn

I doubt I try cutting mine, but was curious what it would do. Maybe I'll look into the spacer off not totally happy once I run her.

[James the III]

Originally Posted by MASTERBrian

I doubt I try cutting mine, but was curious what it would do. Maybe I'll look into the spacer off not totally happy once I run her.

Yup most won't they rather go buy a performer rpm for 130-150 bucks than grind on the intake they have..
to get the same thing..

[crazy longhorn]

Originally Posted by James the III

Yup most won't they rather go buy a performer rpm for 130-150 bucks than grind on the intake they have..
to get the same thing..

Just another thought...a divided spacer & cut part of the center out of the spacer, as you suggested on the manifold? Just so that we are clear as mud, I ran an rpm intake on a gen I small block....it did not have any cut in the center divider. I ran a 4 hole spacer (3/4") on the street....my brother runs a 3/4" open spacer on the track (same engine). That mild 383, is a 12.5 second ride on the track @106 through the lites. Longhorn

[James the III]

Originally Posted by crazy longhorn

Just another thought...a divided spacer & cut part of the center out of the spacer, as you suggested on the manifold? Just so that we are clear as mud, I ran an rpm intake on a gen I small block....it did not have any cut in the center divider. I ran a 4 hole spacer (3/4") on the street....my brother runs a 3/4" open spacer on the track (same engine). That mild 383, is a 12.5 second ride on the track @106 through the lites. Longhorn

All about the area below the curve peak..
At the track at WOT you don't need nor do you use the signal of all 8 cyl part throttle..
the milled divider gives you signal on the carb barrels from all 8 cyl..
divided the carb 2 primaries only see 4 cyl each.. less signal and more pronounced pulsing (reversion )
Your 1/4 track time are a moot point as that is WOT not part throttle . and not on the street.. Or maybe you drive on the street.. WOT or closed and nothing in between..
Better signal= better atomized fuel=more power..
If you drive like a prostocker on the street. then you'll gain nothing..
if you use part throttle more than WOT like 99.99% of the people most of the time.. then you get power gains and better mpg..

[MASTERBrian]

Originally Posted by James the III

Yup most won't they rather go buy a performer rpm for 130-150 bucks than grind on the intake they have..
to get the same thing..

I'd have no issue grinding on mine, but my understanding is the gain wasn't worth it. It's also I the motor as of last night and thus would be a PIA to modify now.

[James the III]

Originally Posted by MASTERBrian

I'd have no issue grinding on mine, but my understanding is the gain wasn't worth it. It's also I the motor as of last night and thus would be a PIA to modify now.

Whatever works for you..
15-20 ft lb in the 1500-3000 rpm part of the curve isn't worth it to some..
No rule that says you have to do it...

[MASTERBrian]

Originally Posted by James the III

Whatever works for you..
15-20 ft lb in the 1500-3000 rpm part of the curve isn't worth it to some..
No rule that says you have to do it...

That might be worth it, I understood early on, it wasn't worth doing on a street motor.

If I do it, how much do I cut out?

[James the III]

Originally Posted by MASTERBrian

That might be worth it, I understood early on, it wasn't worth doing on a street motor.

If I do it, how much do I cut out?

If it's on already just skip it..
the other intake thread has the video with dyno test.. that show the milling..

[crazy longhorn]

Originally Posted by James the III

Whatever works for you..
15-20 ft lb in the 1500-3000 rpm part of the curve isn't worth it to some..
No rule that says you have to do it...

On the street, IMO, it is not worth it... my thoughts? James, I really think that you missed what I had to say, so let me explain it? Spacers, open or 4 hole , or divided, are VOODDOO! What works on 1 may work differently on another app. My thoughts were , that adding a 3/4 spacer to the intake (20 or 25 bucks), & do the cut on the spacer....would be easier than jacking up an intake, & cheaper. Both intakes are a divided pleunum (perf & perf rpm....ok, why not spacer the performer, & just play with the spacer? It makes more sense to me, that you can toss the cheap part into the trash, easier than the more expensive part....do you think that is wrong? Longhorn

[MASTERBrian]

My understand was the spacers are really only helpful at higher rpms, so how would that help on the street?

[storm9c1]

Originally Posted by MASTERBrian

My understand was the spacers are really only helpful at higher rpms, so how would that help on the street?

Good question. As Longhorn is trying to say (and I've mentioned it too), it's an experiment. On some engines, an open spacer would be a good choice for high-rpm applications. Yes. ........and on some engines, a 4-hole spacer can help low-end torque too. But this is really splitting hairs for a mild (or semi-moderate) street application.

........and some think they can mess with these and modify spacers and intakes to get the best of both worlds. Might work good on your engine, but might turn another engine into a dog. Therefore I usually avoid these types of debates since it ends up being a "works on my machine" type debate with little substance for the masses.

But if you are looking for a blanket statement, there is only one truth that applies to ALL spacers. If the spacer is the phenolic plastic type (or pressed wood type), then it will help keep the carb cool. This will help prevent fuel boiling in the bowls. And that alone is why I used spacers. If I am looking at a low end torque application, I'll try the 4-hole version. And if I am looking to rev the snot out of it, then I will try the open spacer. Not saying this is true 100% of the time, but that's where I'd start. If I have free access to a dyno or unlimited test-n-tune passes at the track, I might also be inclined to experiment with other size spacers, open or not, and modify them. Otherwise, if your carb runs too hot and boils/percolates the fuel, pick a spacer, bolt it on, and be done with it. Otherwise, for a street application, who cares?

[MASTERBrian]

Storm, that helps. I'll bolt the carb on, see how it goes and then maybe play with a 4 hole spacer.

Thanks!

[crazy longhorn]

Originally Posted by MASTERBrian

My understand was the spacers are really only helpful at higher rpms, so how would that help on the street?

Apples to oranges...you have 3 different style spacers (open,4 hole, & divided). As a rule, a 4 hole spacer will help low end tork, wheras an open spacer, will help top end power. The divided spacer, will add a little plenum volumn, to make the intake act like a taller intake. I would not go tall, but suggest a 3/4" spacer. many of the older intakes had the cut in the divider , that James suggested. It was more of a 60's deal, But I wont say that it doesnt work? What I am saying, is that you can do the same with a divided plate & cut it accordingly (as per James specs).If it does not show you anything, you will not be tossing , or welding / remachining the intake ....you just toss a 25 dollar part & try again. Hope that helps....longhorn

[James the III]

Originally Posted by crazy longhorn

On the street, IMO, it is not worth it... my thoughts? James, I really think that you missed what I had to say, so let me explain it? Spacers, open or 4 hole , or divided, are VOODDOO! What works on 1 may work differently on another app. My thoughts were , that adding a 3/4 spacer to the intake (20 or 25 bucks), & do the cut on the spacer....would be easier than jacking up an intake, & cheaper. Both intakes are a divided pleunum (perf & perf rpm....ok, why not spacer the performer, & just play with the spacer? It makes more sense to me, that you can toss the cheap part into the trash, easier than the more expensive part....do you think that is wrong? Longhorn

What ever works for you..
You seem to think cutting the divider is "jacking up" the intake, and rather cut a spacer.. and that is fine..
I don't know how you jack up an intake that isn't worth 50 bucks..( you can get them on c/l or e bay for 25 bucks)

Have intake cost nothing. buying a spacer. cost money.. cutting the intake that isn't worth much more than the cost of the spacer.. for fear of devaluing it..
To each there own..
The last performer intake I bought was 30 bucks..

[crazy longhorn]

Originally Posted by James the III

What ever works for you..
You seem to think cutting the divider is "jacking up" the intake, and rather cut a spacer.. and that is fine..
I don't know how you jack up an intake that isn't worth 50 bucks..( you can get them on c/l or e bay for 25 bucks)

Have intake cost nothing. buying a spacer. cost money.. cutting the intake that isn't worth much more than the cost of the spacer.. for fear of devaluing it..
To each there own..
The last performer intake I bought was 30 bucks..

Can we agree that we have a difference in opinion, & just have a beer or 6 no fight...Longhorn