GM crate HT383 or ZZ383

[Madbomber88]

Does anyone on this board have either of these GM PP crate engines in their 67-72 trucks?

Just looking for anyone who's had experience with thiem.
Thanks

[70rs/ss]

Nope, but I think you could build either one, better and cheaper. They sell 383 kits cheap, balanced and ready to drop in. Only if I had the spare coin would I do it because a warrantee is nice. The ZZ383 is supposed to be badazz, the other is an entry level iron headed 383.

[N2TRUX]

Originally Posted by 70rs/ss

Nope, but I think you could build either one, better and cheaper......

Not according to all the knowledgeable engine builders I have talked to. If you have the knowledge and can do all the work yourself you might come close, but then you won't have the dyno tested results that these motors have.

I'm not sure why you want a 383 but those have proven to be good motors. Best bang for the buck is the fast burn 385....

[Madbomber88]

I think I want the 383 because of the low end torque. I never top out the motor and hardly get it above 4000 RPM. I want something that will cruise on the highway up a hill with a load without losing and oomph, if that makes any sense. The HT383 is appealing because it runs on 87 octane and the ZZ383 requires 91. Looking to mate whatever I get with an NV4500 to replace my SM465. I need one more gear to cruise on the highway.

[special-K]

Is the "ZZ" the fast-burn 383?Those have some quality components in the rotating assembly like forged rods,steel crank...but,it`ll cost you.Well worth it,though.

[mplex2000]

Buddy of mine has a brand new ZZ4 in his 63. Not sure what (other than displacement) difference is between the 350 an 383 models, but he loves his.

Another friend had told me he installed several of those in various cars when he worked for a speed shop and he was very surprised at how well they performed. (He was a 600hp Nova so he's fairly experienced with quick cars).

I'm sure that both of them would be good, I know the specs on the HT383 cam are slightly more tame, and I'm sure it's cheaper since it comes with the Vortec heads instead of the fast burns.

[shifty]

ZZ4 is a great engine. My uncle builds race cars (and races religiously) in Vegas. He swears by the ZZ4's if you want something that has "Balls right out of the box" and is also capable of huge buildups straight out of the crate.

[Billla]

Originally Posted by Madbomber88

Does anyone on this board have either of these GM PP crate engines in their 67-72 trucks?

Just looking for anyone who's had experience with thiem.
Thanks

I've dropped in both of these and had "ZZ"'s from GMPP since they first came out. They're both a great buy IMHO for a NEW engine and for what you're looking for (low RPM, lots of torque, etc.) these are perfect. The nice thing with the crates is that street tuning is pretty easy; Demon and others sell carbs that are tuned for the combo and there's a lot documentation on the right jetting, etc. - this saves a heckuva lot of time with an Innovate and pulling apart a Holley. I don't know that I'd drop the extra $$$ for the aluminum heads in a truck.

Most of the decent crate stuff I've seen is right around this price range...the cheaper ones are cast cranks. You could probably build an all-cast 383 for around 3K assuming a good used block and Vortech heads and this would be fine for your application IMHO.


There are cheaper 383 long-block packages out there, but if you have the ca$h these are a rock-solid engine.

[mplex2000]

Actually a brand new 350 block from GM is the same or less than a used engine after a full machine shop workover from what I can tell. Less than $700...it's quick surprising.

[Billla]

Originally Posted by mplex2000

Actually a brand new 350 block from GM is the same or less than a used engine after a full machine shop workover from what I can tell. Less than $700...it's quick surprising.

Having built from a couple of these be aware - these "targetmaster" blocks are finish bored to 4.00...so unless you're doing a "slop" overhaul you'll need to bore .010 or .020 and hone for proper piston/cylinder clearance. The Sportsman blocks are about twice the price, but are rough bored so you can end up with a std. bore.

[PanelDeland]

I looked at some specs some time ago on the crate 383.It comes with enough pan rail clearance for the stroke and hasn't been overbored.This would be a plus for an engine you planned on having long enough to need a rebuild.The warranty would also be a factor as would the tech support.If you were to build a 383 you would have about as much in parts as this engine costs for equal stuff(forged crank ect).Also if you don't use a complete stroker kit you may have problems with mismatched parts.
I think I would go with the iron heads for a truck.

[special-K]

I built my 383 for $1,500.I wanted a budget motor and I got one.The crate motors are greater than the sum of it`s parts when it comes to dollars and cents.The best bang for the buck,for sure.But,they wouldn`t sell me 1/3 of an engine and it wouldn`t have got me done the road,anyway.

[Billla]

Originally Posted by special-K

I built my 383 for $1,500.I wanted a budget motor and I got one.The crate motors are greater than the sum of it`s parts when it comes to dollars and cents.The best bang for the buck,for sure.But,they wouldn`t sell me 1/3 of an engine and it wouldn`t have got me done the road,anyway.

Can you break down the costs and parts? That's dirt cheap - I assume this was a cast crank and cast or HT pistons? What did you spend on the heads?

Completely agree that doing a 383 is very cheap if you look at it as part of an O/H, especially if the crank is beyond salvage. Biggest expense is typically the heads, as a low-end heads aren't well matched to the "deep breathing" of a 383. A marginal head that isn't that big of a deal on a 350 will seriously choke a 383.

[mrein3]

Originally Posted by Billla

Can you break down the costs and parts? That's dirt cheap - I assume this was a cast crank and cast or HT pistons? What did you spend on the heads?

Completely agree that doing a 383 is very cheap if you look at it as part of an O/H, especially if the crank is beyond salvage. Biggest expense is typically the heads, as a low-end heads aren't well matched to the "deep breathing" of a 383. A marginal head that isn't that big of a deal on a 350 will seriously choke a 383.

Mine was $1200 - $1300. I've posted a detailed breakdown before. If I can find it I'll post it again.

I reused the heads that were on the 350 that I replaced. They had a valve job done less than 10,000 earlier.


I'm firmly in the camp that says if you are rebuilding your 350, why not make it a 383 for less than $100 more.

[70rs/ss]

You can get a balanced stroker kit with cast crank and pistons from POWERHOUSE in CA for about $400. A used set of Vortecs can be bought and redone, or $500 new, plus machine work on the block and you are at the $1500 range, folks it can be done and unless you lay on the motor 6500 RPM everywhere you go a forged crank is overkill. I saw a buildup in HOTROD or CARCRAFT using a powerhouse kit and they had their machine shop verify the balance job and it was dead on from powerhouse. So the way I see it you can build to 383's for the cost of the ht383. and probably 3 of em' for the cost of the ZZ383.

[pooz911]

I have the HD 383 in my truck and don't have any complaints. When I was doing my research, there was an article on the 383 crate engines, 50 hrs continuous running w/ oil changes every hour and I think they ran it at 5000 rpm's. After the test they tore the engine down w/ virtually no engine wear and no stretching of the connecting rod bolts....

[Billla]

Originally Posted by 70rs/ss

You can get a balanced stroker kit with cast crank and pistons from POWERHOUSE in CA for about $400. A used set of Vortecs can be bought and redone, or $500 new, plus machine work on the block and you are at the $1500 range, folks it can be done and unless you lay on the motor 6500 RPM everywhere you go a forged crank is overkill. I saw a buildup in HOTROD or CARCRAFT using a powerhouse kit and they had their machine shop verify the balance job and it was dead on from powerhouse. So the way I see it you can build to 383's for the cost of the ht383. and probably 3 of em' for the cost of the ZZ383.

No disagreement, but let's make sure we compare apples and oranges, specifically the cost (and need) for cast vs. forged. The cast vs. forged debate isn't just RPM - if you're going to drag or use nitrous/forced induction to go past about 450FWHP I wouldn't want a cast kit.

Keep in mind that this question included having a shop do all the work - I'm assuming you guys that did it for $1500 did all the final ass'y yourself and just farmed out the machine work. If you add in the shop doing final, I'm not sure the numbers would be ALL that different between a crate and rebuild.

Lots of good advice here - I wonder if we could summarize as a sticky.

I just went through this whole debate with my 1995 LT1, but had to stick with the stock crank as SCCA Street Modified requires < 6.1L

[mrein3]

Originally Posted by Billla

Keep in mind that this question included having a shop do all the work - I'm assuming you guys that did it for $1500 did all the final ass'y yourself and just farmed out the machine work. If you add in the shop doing final, I'm not sure the numbers would be ALL that different between a crate and rebuild.

Lots of good advice here - I wonder if we could summarize as a sticky.

I just went through this whole debate with my 1995 LT1, but had to stick with the stock crank as SCCA Street Modified requires < 6.1L

Actually I got really busy at work when the machine guy was done. I asked if he could assemble the short block for me. He did that for $75. MOST guys charge WAY more but you don't know until you ask.

I got the assembled short block back from the guy. I bolted my heads, oil pan, and an old intake on it. I then sprayed it chevy orange. After that dried I put my new Edelbrock intake on and dropped it in the truck. In the truck I put on a new Edelbrock 1406 carb. The list below does NOT include the new carb and intake. Most guys aren't taking out a 2bbl 350 like I was so this may or may not be an added cost for you.

Here is the breakdown on what I did (I have posted this before)...
383 related parts & labor:
Crankshaft.............................200
400 Balancer (used)..................30
Balance job............................200
Cut con rods for
cam clearance.........................20
400 flywheel.............................30
clearance block for con
rod clearance............................15

ARP con rod bolts.......................38
Oil pump drive..............................8
Oil pump sump..............................9
Performance engine Kit: Sealed power moly rings,
Fel pro gaskets, con rod bearings, main bearings,
cam bearings, block plugs, 383 pistons, three piece
timing set, oil pump....................317
R&R block plugs..........................10
degrease block...........................35
deck block.................................50
bore & deck-plate hone cyl(s).......80
deck-plate charge.......................10
Remove, install, & fit cam bearings..25
Recon con rods...........................80
Pin fit new pistons.......................28
Assemble short block....................75
Sales tax....................................26.13
Total ===>.............................$1286.13

[special-K]

I bought a 383 rotating assembly(internal/10:1),cam/lifters,dbl.roller,hi-vol.pump,roller tips,and gaskets.Had the machining done including some flow work on the 365hp heads(327).I have seat-of-the-pants dyno results @ 400+/-.I already had the motor/heads,it was a rebuild and I wanted cheap and I got it.More is better,but it`s more.Alot of options out there.

[midwestburner]

Not to throw a wrench in everyone's train of thought, but the engine builder in the following link has some strong opinions on crate motors. He seems knowledgable and enthusiastic, but of course, crate motors would be (what I think) the number one threat to his livelihood. Crate motor business is money right out of his pocket I would think. I'm not an engine builder or an auto expert so I'm not sure how much of what he publishes on his website is valid, but he does have some good info. I bring up his website because I was doing research on both sides of the crate motor vs. custom-built engine argument and I want to get as much info to make an informed decision before I drop $$$$ into an engine. AJ

http://www.badasscars.com/index.html

[Billla]

Originally Posted by midwestburner

Not to throw a wrench in everyone's train of thought, but the engine builder in the following link has some strong opinions on crate motors. He seems knowledgable and enthusiastic, but of course, crate motors would be (what I think) the number one threat to his livelihood. Crate motor business is money right out of his pocket I would think. I'm not an engine builder or an auto expert so I'm not sure how much of what he publishes on his website is valid, but he does have some good info. I bring up his website because I was doing research on both sides of the crate motor vs. custom-built engine argument and I want to get as much info to make an informed decision before I drop $$$$ into an engine. AJ

http://www.badasscars.com/index.html

His focus seems to be more targeted at people that spend big buxx on a hotrod and then skimp on the engine internals. He's got the right questions (quality of components, intended use, etc.) but I agree with your perspective that the answers are biased at best. His comparo to the ZZ4 is spin at best and outright BS in a few spots.

[special-K]

A couple responses:
*Why pay someone to do work you can do?Don`t we all want to claim as much credit for our trucks as we can?And,what`s wrong with saving money?
*Part of the weighing process for me is,do I already have a motor to build?If I needed everything,the crate just got cheaper.
*Cast cranks are in one of the "crates" in discussion,right?The HT383 has cast.(Oops,wrong)
*My 383 has 40 year old $75 factory performance heads,not Vortec or Aluminum.Like I said twice the first time,I was building a good motor for cheap.It`s not a competition vehicleor a daily driver.This motor is extremely cost effective.It will prolly take me 10 years to put 20,000 miles on it.
*I want a ZZ383,too.But,I really like my custom home-built 383 and so does everybody else.
*GMPP has more R&D money than any other auto industry supplier in the world,I`d think.Plus it`s GM modifying their own motors.They could be considered experts.

[Billla]

Originally Posted by special-K

The HT383 has cast.

Not sure what the questions were for all those answers, but they were all good ones

The ZZ4, ZZ383 and FB 385 all have forged cranks, PM rods and PM pistons.

[Madbomber88]

According to the GM PP catalogue, the HT383 has a forged steel crankshaft, same as the ZZ383, so niether of them are cast.

[special-K]

Ok,I was going from memory(not an accurate one apparently ).My responses aren`t necessarily to questions,but to info and comments mentioned.Just adding some balance .