Register or Log In To remove these advertisements. |
|
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
04-09-2008, 04:58 PM | #1 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Westminster, CO
Posts: 3,071
|
Muncie Questions/plans Experts please chime in
Kind of have decided to put a Muncie M-22 behind my BBC 496 which has been estimated by Smith Racing to be near 700 hp. Solid roller Cam is .652 lift. Rear end gears are a 3.73 Eaton posi. Do I get the close ratio M-22 or the wide ratio??? A friend has a complete original GM 68' M-22 (all the stamped numbers match the M-22)that would need a rebuild...he said I could have it for $300 bucks....good deal??? Do I buy it from him and have it rebuilt with those nice Italian gears how much would that cost??? Or would it be better to just buy a New AutoGear SuperCase all ready to go??? Found one of those AG SuperCase complete units from T&B Trans for like $1800.00.
Input...Opinions...all the like please chime in!
__________________
Alex 1971 Lil' Red 350 SBC 700R4 Last edited by ChevyDude; 04-09-2008 at 05:08 PM. |
04-09-2008, 05:21 PM | #2 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Posts: 423
|
Re: Muncie Questions/plans Experts please chime in
I can't really answer any of your questions but. I was under the impression that all m22's were close ratio, i may be completely wrong but just some food for thought.
|
04-09-2008, 05:32 PM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Westminster, CO
Posts: 3,071
|
Re: Muncie Questions/plans Experts please chime in
The new Italian gear sets can be had either:
M22 Close Ratio 2.20-1.64-1.28-1.00 M22 Wide Ratio 2.52-1.88-1.46-1.00 http://www.tbtrans.com/muncie_4_speed.htm#new_unit
__________________
Alex 1971 Lil' Red 350 SBC 700R4 Last edited by ChevyDude; 04-09-2008 at 05:34 PM. |
04-09-2008, 05:32 PM | #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Muskegon,MI,USA
Posts: 6,026
|
Re: Muncie Questions/plans Experts please chime in
The M-21 and M-22 only come in a close ratio version. The wide ratio Muncie is a M-20.
$300 is a steal for a M-22 and it makes me wonder if it really is a M-22. I would strongly suggest pulling the cover to check the gears. The transmission cases are interchangeble so don't go by the exterior numbers. Most M-22's have a fine spline input and a large spline output but this is no guarantee that it is or is not a M-22 as there are other versions. The M-22's have straighter and larger gears than the M-20's, M-21's. If you are inexperienced with Muncies, try to get someone you trust with Muncie experience to look at it with you. Jim
__________________
1971 Shortbox step side 4x4, 350 sbc, 3:07 rear end 1965 Impala SS 400 sbc, Muncie rock crusher 1966 Impala SS 396 bbc, TH 400 1969 El Camino, 350 sbc, TH 350 1971 Snowplow built on a Blazer frame 1972 GMC Short bed, stepside, TH 400, 427 BBC |
04-09-2008, 05:36 PM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Westminster, CO
Posts: 3,071
|
Re: Muncie Questions/plans Experts please chime in
Jim the guy that is selling it is my friend. It has a no grove 10 spline in the front and a 27 spline out the back. Should I pull the side cover and look at the gears...maybe take a pic???
__________________
Alex 1971 Lil' Red 350 SBC 700R4 Last edited by ChevyDude; 04-09-2008 at 05:39 PM. |
04-09-2008, 06:22 PM | #6 |
Registered User
Join Date: May 2005
Location: PA
Posts: 2,696
|
Re: Muncie Questions/plans Experts please chime in
I would get the supercase, along with a lakewood blow-proof bellhousing and scatter shield. Over time, the original cases stretch, making bad things happen when you put lots of tire to the ground.
I would go with the wide ratio. You're going to make gobs of power all over the rpm range, so it probably won't matter much. Close ratios are designed to keep "peaky" engines from falling out of their desired RPM range. With all that being said, I would just go with a TK0-600 5 speed. Last edited by Jim_PA; 04-09-2008 at 06:23 PM. |
04-09-2008, 07:04 PM | #7 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Westminster, CO
Posts: 3,071
|
Re: Muncie Questions/plans Experts please chime in
I already have the Lakewood Scatter shield...I would like to do the TKO-600 but it seems like a ton of cash.
__________________
Alex 1971 Lil' Red 350 SBC 700R4 |
04-09-2008, 07:22 PM | #8 |
Cantankerous Geezer
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Bel Aire, KS
Posts: 6,264
|
Re: Muncie Questions/plans Experts please chime in
Here's the page for identification.
http://www.yearone.com/updatedsingle...nfo/muncie.htm Last good M-22 that I saw at the swap meet had a $2500 price tag.
__________________
Fred There is no such thing as too much cam...just not enough engine. |
04-09-2008, 07:31 PM | #9 |
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Northern AZ
Posts: 7,270
|
Re: Muncie Questions/plans Experts please chime in
Well, the tko can be had for about $1500-1800 just for the trans, so I'd do a TKO 500, but probably need the 600 to hold up to the torqu of that BBC. A Municie isn't very strong to begin with and a rock crusher is no fun on the street (I'd buy it for $300 because it is worth way more than that, but not for your truck) The supercase is a good idea or a new super T-10, but trans for trans, do the TKO. According to Summit's site the TKO 600 is only $4-500 more than the T-10 but near the same price as that super case 4-speed, I am doing the TKO 600 for my 496 when I get to that stage!! Check out the Summit info:
CMG-TCET5009 Tremec TKO 600 Manual Transmissions Transmission, Manual, Tremec TKO 600, 5-Speed, 1 1/ 8 in. 26-Spline, GM, V8, Each 4/23/08 $1,975.00 RMG-1304000070 Richmond Gear Super T-10 4-Speed Transmissions Transmission, Manual, Super T-10 4-Speed, GM, V8, Each Today $1,479.00 |
04-09-2008, 08:59 PM | #10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Westminster, CO
Posts: 3,071
|
Re: Muncie Questions/plans Experts please chime in
Well you guys got me thinking...TKO-600 is $1975.00 at a bunch of shops...maybe this really is the best way to go and then I gain an overdrive gear. OK...milling this around.
__________________
Alex 1971 Lil' Red 350 SBC 700R4 |
04-09-2008, 09:16 PM | #11 |
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Northern AZ
Posts: 7,270
|
Re: Muncie Questions/plans Experts please chime in
More important, the TKO is rated at well over your anticipated power range, a muncie (in stock form and maybe even hopped up will fail, sooner or later) the T-10 will probably fail and I have no experience with the super case but for $200 you get strength and an extra gear. I paid $1500 for a 700r4 to hold up to a BBC, I should have done the TKO then, so I will for sure on the next BBC that goes into my 72 2wd Blazer. Good Luck, i don't think you can go wrong! Here is more info on the TKO 500/600 from Jeg's:
Tremec TKO-500/600 5-Speed Transmissions Tremec TKO transmissions are the ultimate upgrade when making 500+ horsepower. These transmissions are more robust, flexible and more versatile than their earlier counterparts. The TKO is ideal for high-performance racing applications. TKO-500 transmissions can handle up to 500-ft./lbs. of torque and the TKO-600 up to 600-ft/lbs. TKO transmissions are not direct replacements. They require modifications for installation. Features and Benefits: Higher center distance (83 mm) from main shaft to counter shaft allows for larger gear sizes and higher torque carrying capacity Close gear ratio (2.87 & 3.27) models available for high-performance racing applications Robust transmission design with internal 3-rail shift system with cast iron shift forks Tapered roller bearings on input, output and counter shafts improve performance (reduced noise factor). All gears and shafts made from special grade steel (ASTM 4615) that permits increased torque carrying capacity Single-piece countershaft that better handles increased torque carrying capacity Equipped with a high-performance short-throw billet aluminum shifter that isolates road noise, while providing clean crisp shifts Neutral safety switch and back-up light sensor Flexible and versatile Eight shifter locations available Dual electronic and mechanical speedometer pick-ups Three unique cross member-mounting configurations Three different input shafts available Three available overdrive ratios: .64 or .68 ratios reduce engine rpm to a level that makes it fun to drive besides enhancing the fuel efficiency .82 ratio is ideal for long straight-aways for high performance racing Last edited by 70rs/ss; 04-09-2008 at 09:18 PM. |
04-09-2008, 09:27 PM | #12 |
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Northern AZ
Posts: 7,270
|
Re: Muncie Questions/plans Experts please chime in
Kiesler, I have heard peaople talk smack about them, but CarCraft and Hot Rod used there kit (complete ready to install with no trips for parts!)
TREMEC TKO-500/600 & T56 for GM & Ford In Stock & Available! Order Now: Online or CALL (865) 609-8187 We won't be undersold! Don't be Misled! All Transmission Kits are NOT Created Equal! Click here Features of the TKO-500 / TKO-600 / T56 Super duty all Chromoly steel construction gear set Ultimate strength 1-piece countershaft Improved shifter with user-adjustable spring bias centering Dual mechanical and electronic speedometer outputs (TKO-600) Close ratio 2.87 1st gear for less 1-2 RPM drops (TKO-600) TALL 0.64 overdrive ("Street option") for lower cruising RPMs and longer engine life (0.82 "Road Race" option still available) Ratios and Torque Ratings Model 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th HP Torque Rating Description TKO-500 3.27 1.98 1.34 1.00 .68 n/a 550 500 ft/lbs. *(Wide ratio & Street OD) TKO-600 2.87 1.89 1.28 1.00 .64 n/a 650 600 ft/lbs. *(Close ratio & Street OD) TKO-600 (RR) 2.87 1.89 1.28 1.00 .82 n/a 650 600 ft/lbs. *(Close ratio & Road Race OD) T56-0011 2.97 2.07 1.43 1.00 .80 .62 475 400 ft/lbs. (6-Speed) T56-Viper 2.66 1.78 1.30 1.00 .74 .50 650 600 ft/lbs. (6-Speed) |
04-09-2008, 09:32 PM | #13 |
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Northern AZ
Posts: 7,270
|
Re: Muncie Questions/plans Experts please chime in
Classic 5 speed:
http://www.classicchevy5speed.com/ Installing a five speed overdrive Tremec transmission in your classic Chevy will be one of the best improvements that you can make to your classic car. Watch your cruising RPM’s drop by as much as 36% while your driving pleasure goes up! The all new Tremec TKO-500 and TKO-600’s are high performance, true overdrive five speed transmissions. With torque ratings of 500 ft/lbs. and 600 ft/lbs. respectively, these all new Tremec transmissions are among the most versatile transmissions produced. In addition to the all-star line up of parts that we have assembled for our TKO kits, Classic Motorsports Group has built its reputation through its commitment to offering the best, most responsive and professional customer service and support you will find. We specialize exclusively in Tremec TKO conversion kits for Classic Chevy’s and we have “walked the walk” by personally installing TKO’s into Camaros, Corvettes, Chevelles and other model cars. Email inquiries are answered by the end of the day, we typically answer phone calls within three rings and you will always speak directly to one of the owners. We do our best to keep every part we offer in stock at all times and orders are usually shipped out within 48 hours. Basic Tremec Overdrive Transmission Conversion Kit for Classic Chevys (This one is specifically for our trucks and only a few hundred more than just the trans!!) It seems as though these guys and Kiesler compete so a phone call or two could shave $1-2-300 of of this price check it out!! I plan to do the 500 in my 70 Camaro behind my 450-500hp 383, and the 600 in my 2wd Blazer. Basic TKO-500 Street Kit: $2095 Basic TKO-600 Street Kit: $2195 Basic TKO-600 Road Race Kit: $2195 Performance Package Upgrades Stock Clutch Kit Street Comp Strip Comp LUK 10.5" or 11" clutch kit - 425 HP Street Performance Add $195 11" clutch kit - 550 HP Dual Performance Add $425 11" clutch kit - 700 HP Add $525 Request a quote The Classic Motorsports Group Deluxe TKO kits include the following components: Transmission. All new TKO-500 or TKO-600 transmission. Includes billet aluminum Tremec shifter. Slip yoke. Spicer 1330, 31 spline slip yoke. Speedometer cable/adapter. Custom mechanical speedometer cable with integrated adapter and gear. Electric speedometer kits are also available. Reverse light switch connector. Convenient pigtail connector. Transmission mount. Energy Suspension polyurethane transmission mount for long life and durability. Pilot bearing. Needle roller pilot bearing. Hardware Kit. Complete specialty hardware kit for a hassle free installation. Installation Instructions/Information. Step-by-step instructions to answer your most detailed questions and help you with your installation. Customer Support. Unlimited phone support for all technical and installation related questions. Extended warranty. Free one year extended warranty from Classic Motorsports Group on all kit components. Some restrictions apply. Detailed parts description Model Part Number 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Torque Rating TKO-500 4616 3.27 1.98 1.34 1.00 .68 500 ft/lbs. TKO-600 5009 2.87 1.89 1.28 1.00 .64 600 ft/lbs. TKO-600(RR) 4618 2.87 1.89 1.28 1.00 .82 600 ft/lbs. Call Now to Order (760) 438-2244 Last edited by 70rs/ss; 04-09-2008 at 09:37 PM. |
04-09-2008, 09:41 PM | #14 |
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Northern AZ
Posts: 7,270
|
Re: Muncie Questions/plans Experts please chime in
Sorry for so many posts, but really this is such a good deal, like I said I dropped $1500 for a decent 700r4 and I am so excited about doing this myself, so I was looking for both of us!! I think a TKO 600 is bare minimum for a BBC, 600lb ft or torque and basically bullet proof and an overdrive on top of that!!
|
04-09-2008, 09:58 PM | #15 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Westminster, CO
Posts: 3,071
|
Re: Muncie Questions/plans Experts please chime in
Thanks for the help...that does look like a good deal and I have already spoken with them on the phone...seem like good people to buy from.
__________________
Alex 1971 Lil' Red 350 SBC 700R4 |
04-09-2008, 11:54 PM | #16 |
Registered User
Join Date: May 2005
Location: PA
Posts: 2,696
|
Re: Muncie Questions/plans Experts please chime in
Yeah, you've already built a 700HP big block, what's another $800 bucks or so?
|
04-10-2008, 01:18 AM | #17 |
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Grand Forks ND
Posts: 434
|
Re: Muncie Questions/plans Experts please chime in
BUY THE MUNCIE!!! at that price unless the gears are shot, the core alone is about 370.00 if I am correct. I had a m-20 behind a very good running 396 (12.5-1 compression) in a chevelle and never broke it. It will hold untill you dead hook from 5000rpm.
__________________
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" Ben Franklin 67 Chevy 1/2 lwb, 67 GMC 1/2 lwb (parts) |
04-10-2008, 02:30 AM | #18 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Westminster, CO
Posts: 3,071
|
Re: Muncie Questions/plans Experts please chime in
Muncie is in my shop for inspection. All the case numbers say it is a pre 69 M-22. As far as the gears...not sure what the M-22 gears looked like, or whether someone rebuilt it with M-21 gears? The gears are angled and look very good, nice and sharp edges. My friend says it just needs new sycro's, bearings and seals....that's it. The countershaft below measures 1" in diameter. Cover plate number 3884685 and build date stamped on the main case P9M30. 10 spline in the front, 27 spline in the tail. No broken ears or signs of any repairs to the case. Is it an M-22? A deal for 300 bucks?
__________________
Alex 1971 Lil' Red 350 SBC 700R4 Last edited by ChevyDude; 04-10-2008 at 03:39 AM. |
04-10-2008, 04:18 AM | #19 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: northwestern wi
Posts: 2,111
|
Re: Muncie Questions/plans Experts please chime in
not a m22 but still a deal those gears are cut ata 30 degre angle m22 are 20 degres. m22s are a much noiser trany due to the straighter cut gears thus the name rock crusher
__________________
common sense isn't so common anymore |
04-10-2008, 04:34 AM | #20 |
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Grand Forks ND
Posts: 434
|
Re: Muncie Questions/plans Experts please chime in
At 300 it is a steal
__________________
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" Ben Franklin 67 Chevy 1/2 lwb, 67 GMC 1/2 lwb (parts) |
04-10-2008, 04:07 PM | #21 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Westminster, CO
Posts: 3,071
|
Re: Muncie Questions/plans Experts please chime in
A steal at 300.00 but not what I think I really want. Been reading and reading and everything seems to point in the direction of the TKO-600. So I will have to figure out how to finance a 5-speed Tremec into the back end of my 496. I appreciate everyone's help and input on this Muncie issue.
__________________
Alex 1971 Lil' Red 350 SBC 700R4 Last edited by ChevyDude; 04-10-2008 at 04:08 PM. |
04-10-2008, 08:52 PM | #22 |
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Northern AZ
Posts: 7,270
|
Re: Muncie Questions/plans Experts please chime in
Clean up the muncie and put synchros in it then you have a $1,000 trans to sell and a good start on the TKO 600!! I am considering the same thing, my 70 RS/SS Camaro has the stock original Muncie in it (been completely gone through with new parts) plus all the stuff, flywheel clutch pressure plate, bell housing, etc, etc. My car is a numbers matching car but the muncies are date coded for a few years so I could always pick up another to return to original. Once I sell it, I too can afford the TKO 500. In this day and age a good 5-speed is nearly the same $$$ as a good 4-speed. Good Luck.
|
04-11-2008, 07:04 PM | #23 | |
Registered User
Join Date: May 2005
Location: PA
Posts: 2,696
|
Re: Muncie Questions/plans Experts please chime in
Quote:
I think I would deliver newspapers or something though before I took out a #"s matching trans, and sold it for an aftermarket trans |
|
Bookmarks |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|