WA State Seat Belt Law - Mystery

[Ryan5O]

OK, this is about to drive me nuts. I'm prior law enforcement and have plenty of law enforcement contacts, so I didn't think this was going to turn into a big deal. The initial question goes as follows: "Is a 1972 pickup required to have shoulder harnesses if the vehicle comes from the mfgr with lap belts only?" The consistent answer I receive is "No, if the vehicle came from the mfgr with lap belts only and it has not had shoulder harness previously installed, then it's legal." That's the answer that I expected.

I then follow up with "Show me in the statute where I can find this shoulder harness exception". After some research, the exact same contacts come back and say "uh, it looks like they are required."

Ive even had the WA State Patrol advise me that Im required to install aftermarket 3pt belts.

So, now I'm in contact with the WA State Safety Restraint Coalition and they've have also advised me that the shoulder harness is not required. Ive given them the same follow up question and they are currently researching the matter.

Any attorney's, LEO's or law geeks out there that know the answer to this one? I believe its hidden int he Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards and Regulations Standard No 210.

I'm just looking for something easy to interpret to keep in my glove box, so that when Johnny Law fresh from the academy thinks he has something to prove.

Thanks
R

[fine69]

Its easy. If the factory didn't install it you don't have to install it to meet the "law".

Or some Johnny come lately law guy.

It only has to be there IF it was in fact installed at the factory and REMOVED prior to you getting busted.

You provide this info in any INTELLIGENT court in this country and you will win.

I have in FACT laughted at an Ohio State Highway Patrol. Because he didn't know the laws in Ohio. Made him get out the Ohio Revised code/law book in his trunk. Which they are REQUIRED to keep in there. And i showed him in the book that he in FACT didn't know what he was talking about.

Yea, no ticket.

[Ryan5O]

Yeah, that's the common sense answer, but that wont win in court if the written law states otherwise. The judges aren't experts in all things law and they will default to the easiest answer which is the following...

Revised Code of Washington (RCW) 46.37.510 (4) states “Every passenger car manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1968 shall be equipped with at least two shoulder harness-type safety belt assemblies for use in the front seating positions.”

[Sillyoldman]

I have always understood the same, not required. I would also be interested in seeing a Wa State document on the topic.

[CG]

Never heard of having to put aftermarket parts in a vehicle that did not come with them from the factory. Even cars that came with only one tail light (way back) aren't required to install another to make a pair.

Ive driven by local cops many times and believe me if they thought they could issue a ticket they would. =)

[Ryan5O]

Yeah, I was really surprised when WSP told me to install those belts. I'm picking up my truck in a couple weeks. It only has lap belts and I just know Im going to get pulled over since no belts will be visible when Im driving. I just want to be prepared. If I cant get a good answer in the next couple days I think Im going to break down and buy some aftermarket belts.

[Indyuke]

Hmmm... I've never had a problem. Pass by ticket happy leo's all time with only my lap belt on and of course no shoulder belt since it was never installed by GM. Even got pulled over once (for another reason) and he never mentioned it.

[augie]

Here's what the PI blog says on the subject http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattle911...ave-seatbelts/ What I wonder is if the law for shoulder belts was put in place in '68 and therefore local sellers at the time had to install shoulder belts before selling.

[dubds10]

Deff wouldn't work with a 69-72 blazer As far as I'm concerned and most law enforcement I know, if it came from the factory it's the LAW. If it didn't, well that's WITHIN the law of the vehicle standards put out by the individual provinces and states. You'd have to run into a real stuckup cop to get a seat belt ticket when the vehicle didn't come with seat belts from the factory.

But then again, common sense isn't all that common these days and lots of people need something in writting to following along so they don't hurt their head thinking.

[Livrat]

Here is a FAQ from the WSP..

http://www.wsp.wa.gov/information/faqs.htm

Sroll down near the bottom..




I have an older vehicle. Is it required to have a seat belt?

Every vehicle manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1965, shall be equipped with at least two lap-type safety belt assemblies for use in the front seating positions.
Every passenger car manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1968, shall be equipped with a lap-type safety belt assembly for each permanent passenger seating position.
Every passenger car manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1968, shall be equipped with at least two shoulder harness-type safety belt assemblies for use in the front seating positions.
Every pickup manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1972, shall be equipped with safety belts.
Rule of thumb: If your vehicle was originally equipped with safety belts, they must be in good working order and must be used.

[LockDoc]

-
I had an Iowa HP stop me because he didn't think I stopped at a stop sign long enough. I had the lap belt on and he asked me about the shoulder belt. I told him it was optional in '69 and showed him the attachment point with the plastic plug in it. He said "no problem" and told me to quit driving the truck or get the windshield replaced because it had a crack in it. No ticket, no warning, other than verbal. I was a happy camper...

LockDoc

[lil hoodlum]

Originally Posted by Livrat

Here is a FAQ from the WSP..

http://www.wsp.wa.gov/information/faqs.htm

Sroll down near the bottom..




I have an older vehicle. Is it required to have a seat belt?

Every vehicle manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1965, shall be equipped with at least two lap-type safety belt assemblies for use in the front seating positions.
Every passenger car manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1968, shall be equipped with a lap-type safety belt assembly for each permanent passenger seating position.
Every passenger car manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1968, shall be equipped with at least two shoulder harness-type safety belt assemblies for use in the front seating positions.
Every pickup manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1972, shall be equipped with safety belts.
Rule of thumb: If your vehicle was originally equipped with safety belts, they must be in good working order and must be used.

Ryan50, it seems LivRat has allready answered the question for you.

It specifically says pickup manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1972, shall be equipped with safety belts. It says pickup not passenger car. In fact, it states that passenger cars after January 1, 1968, shall have two shoulder harness-type safety belt assemblies for use the the FRONT seating positions.

Good luck,

Keith

[Ryan5O]

This WA Trooper FAQ is crap. You, me, the trooper, local pd, etc. cant find anything that supports: Every pickup manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1972, shall be equipped with safety belts. Granted, in court a guy's argument may have merit if this FAQ page is used, but a FAQ page still isnt statute.

Its ironic that the FAQ page states this, but when I asked WSP via email I was advised that I was REQUIRED to install aftermarket shoulder belts in my 72. When I get to work tomorrow I'll get the email and post it for you guys.

Out of curiosity, anyone know what year the shoulder belts were required by the mfgr to be installed in trucks?

[68C15]

I had the same issue here last summer. I borrowed a 1923 T bucket for a couple days. I verified with local, county, and state police about the issue before I took my boys for a ride. they said as long as it is registered as a 1923 all is fine. kind of a hassle but it felt good to know the law.

for your situation I think it would be in your best interest for safety and legality to install them. that way there is no problem and all interpretations of the law are eliminated.

[Ryan5O]

"Every pickup manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1972, shall be equipped with safety belts."

This still doesnt clear things up. The question is shoulder belts, which the WAC states is required.

Revised Code of Washington (RCW) 46.37.510 (4) states “Every passenger car manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1968 shall be equipped with at least two shoulder harness-type safety belt assemblies for use in the front seating positions.”

[Longhorn Man]

here's the deal, the city, county, state, nor the feds, can require you to add safety equipment... per federal law. They are grandfatjhered in.
When I got told by a 20 year old officer one time that I had to add a 3 point, I told him (politly) that he was wrong and I would not add it. He said something or another about me having a problem with authority and I asked him to prove it to me... he couldn't. I then told him that by his logic, I would have to add air bags 5 MPH bumpers and crumple zones.
Seat belts are required in all 72 and newer trucks. If they were to keep digging, they'd find that shoulder belts weren't required in pickups till 76 or so.
These quote you have, tell you what you need to know...
The legal term for seatbelt does not include shoulder harness.
It specificly said when cars were required to add shoulder harnesses (which I 'think' they are off by a few years per federal DOT regs). It said;

Every passenger car manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1968, shall be equipped with a lap-type safety belt assembly for each permanent passenger seating position.
Every passenger car manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1968, shall be equipped with at least two shoulder harness-type safety belt assemblies for use in the front seating positions.

It specificly states shoulder belts, where in the truck it does not.

You are right for planning ahead for expected problems, but you'll find that this is an issue that won't come up all that often, and through my observations, you'll only need to say something once a year or so even in a daily driver.

[Ryan5O]

Originally Posted by Longhorn Man

here's the deal, the city, county, state, nor the feds, can require you to add safety equipment... per federal law. They are grandfatjhered in.
When I got told by a 20 year old officer one time that I had to add a 3 point, I told him (politly) that he was wrong and I would not add it. He said something or another about me having a problem with authority and I asked him to prove it to me... he couldn't. I then told him that by his logic, I would have to add air bags 5 MPH bumpers and crumple zones.
Seat belts are required in all 72 and newer trucks. If they were to keep digging, they'd find that shoulder belts weren't required in pickups till 76 or so.
These quote you have, tell you what you need to know...
The legal term for seatbelt does not include shoulder harness.
It specificly said when cars were required to add shoulder harnesses (which I 'think' they are off by a few years per federal DOT regs). It said;

It specificly states shoulder belts, where in the truck it does not.

You are right for planning ahead for expected problems, but you'll find that this is an issue that won't come up all that often, and through my observations, you'll only need to say something once a year or so even in a daily driver.

It doesnt specify truck at all.

If you reference RCW 46.61.688 Safety Belts http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.37.510

The scope of vehicles required to use safety belts includes: passenger cars and trucks. I think the key is Section (2)a of the RCW

"RCW 46.61.688
Safety belts, use required — Penalties — Exemptions.

(1) For the purposes of this section, "motor vehicle" includes:

(a) "Buses," meaning motor vehicles with motive power, except trailers, designed to carry more than ten passengers;

(b) "Medium-speed electric vehicle" meaning a self-propelled, electrically powered four-wheeled motor vehicle, equipped with a roll cage or crush-proof body design, whose speed attainable in one mile is more than thirty miles per hour but not more than thirty-five miles per hour and otherwise meets or exceeds the federal regulations set forth in 49 C.F.R. Sec. 571.500;

(c) "Motorcycle," meaning a three-wheeled motor vehicle that is designed (i) so that the driver rides on a seat in a partially or completely enclosed seating area that is equipped with safety belts and (ii) to be steered with a steering wheel;

(d) "Multipurpose passenger vehicles," meaning motor vehicles with motive power, except trailers, designed to carry ten persons or less that are constructed either on a truck chassis or with special features for occasional off-road operation;

(e) "Neighborhood electric vehicle," meaning a self-propelled, electrically powered four-wheeled motor vehicle whose speed attainable in one mile is more than twenty miles per hour and not more than twenty-five miles per hour and conforms to federal regulations under 49 C.F.R. Sec. 571.500;

(f) "Passenger cars," meaning motor vehicles with motive power, except multipurpose passenger vehicles, motorcycles, or trailers, designed for carrying ten passengers or less; and

(g) "Trucks," meaning motor vehicles with motive power, except trailers, designed primarily for the transportation of property.

(2)(a) This section only applies to:

(i) Motor vehicles that meet the manual seat belt safety standards as set forth in 49 C.F.R. Sec. 571.208;
(ii) Motorcycles, when equipped with safety belts that meet the standards set forth in 49 C.F.R. Part 571; and

(iii) Neighborhood electric vehicles and medium-speed electric vehicles that meet the seat belt standards as set forth in 49 C.F.R. Sec. 571.500.

(b) This section does not apply to a vehicle occupant for whom no safety belt is available when all designated seating positions as required under 49 C.F.R. Part 571 are occupied.

(3) Every person sixteen years of age or older operating or riding in a motor vehicle shall wear the safety belt assembly in a properly adjusted and securely fastened manner.

(4) No person may operate a motor vehicle unless all child passengers under the age of sixteen years are either: (a) Wearing a safety belt assembly or (b) are securely fastened into an approved child restraint device.

(5) A person violating this section shall be issued a notice of traffic infraction under chapter 46.63 RCW. A finding that a person has committed a traffic infraction under this section shall be contained in the driver's abstract but shall not be available to insurance companies or employers.

(6) Failure to comply with the requirements of this section does not constitute negligence, nor may failure to wear a safety belt assembly be admissible as evidence of negligence in any civil action.

(7) This section does not apply to an operator or passenger who possesses written verification from a licensed physician that the operator or passenger is unable to wear a safety belt for physical or medical reasons.

(8) The state patrol may adopt rules exempting operators or occupants of farm vehicles, construction equipment, and vehicles that are required to make frequent stops from the requirement of wearing safety belts."

[Ryan5O]

I appreciate everyone sharing their experience with this. It has me leaning towards keeping the lap belts in. Financially speaking, I cant afford petty seat belt tickets at this time.

Im still going to pursue this though. I really want to get a straight answer.

[68 IRON]

Ya, you are not required to have shoulder harnesses because the state makes the differentiation between two types of vehicles for the requirement.
The subjects: passenger car and pickup trucks. Harness for passenger cars and safety belts pickup trucks. Good subject....Great discussion!

[NONHOG]

Originally Posted by Ryan5O

I appreciate everyone sharing their experience with this. It has me leaning towards keeping the lap belts in. Financially speaking, I cant afford petty seat belt tickets at this time.

Im still going to pursue this though. I really want to get a straight answer.

No expert here but I think the answer is clear, you are not driving a passenger car.

I added shoulder belts when my daughter was driving my old 70 C10.
They killed a little of the "original" feel. But sure felt safer.
And that kept mamma happy.

[Ryan5O]

I wish the answer were that clear. Once again I default back to the follow up question that Ive asked law enforcement. Show me in writing that its legal. Where does it say that trucks are exempt from shoulder belts.

To say that the statute doesnt say truck, so it doesnt apply to trucks isnt sufficient from a legal standpoint. If thats the case, trucks of any year wouldnt be required to have them.

Dont get me wrong, I agree with the general consensus about the lap belts being fine, but if it came down to a real ugly knock down drag out battle, the guy with the written ruling is going to win. So far, I believe that the shoulder belts are winning.

[biggestjohn]

Originally Posted by Longhorn Man

He said something or another about me having a problem with authority .

Ohhh Yeah!!

If the Police in this country would get it out of thier heads that they are authority figures, and understand that they are law enforcement officers, but not THE law, maybe they could rid themselves of thier attitudes!! The Police, (law enforcement officers) are public employees, paid by the taxpayers, nothing more.

On the main subject, I think that I would just add the shoulder harness, just so that IF I did get into a wreck, I wouldn't eat the steering wheel. JMO

[CG]

I took this off of an old thread on the same subject ....

Since 1967, federal law has required that all cars and light trucks sold in the United States be equipped with safety belts.

Here is a brief history of what years anchorage points were added to U.S. automobiles: Most U.S. passenger cars, beginning with 1962 models, have seat belt anchorages for at least 2 lap belts in the front seat, but not all autos. Starting in 1964, all U.S. cars were manufactured with seat belt anchorages for at least two lap belts in the front seat. Since January 1968, U.S. passenger car and light truck manufacturers have been required to install lap belt and shoulder belt anchorages at each front "outboard" (driver side and passenger side, not middle) seating position (except convertibles) as well as lap belt anchorages at all other seating positions. Since 1/1/72, this same requirement became effective for trucks.


I had shoulder belts in my 73K20 and Im pretty sure they were standard not optional

[augie]

Perhaps you should respond to the email from the WSP with a link to their own FAQ section which disagrees with them.

There may also be some case law in place which further defines the rules. When the written laws are not specific enough for each situation the legal system depends on judicial decisions to further define the written laws. Or they may just default to the federal rules in place that trucks after 72 need shoulder belts.

[fine69]

I still think its pretty easy.

If the LAW states that the manufacturer didn't HAVE to install it THEN. Why would you HAVE to install it NOW?

After my first post on this i also remembered another time....

I had a 49 GMC panel truck. NO factory turn signals. ONE rear brake/tail light. On the drivers rear barn door.

Got stopped for only having one brake light. After explaining that it NEVER had one. And explaining that it never had turn signals either.

And having the officer tell me that i SHOULD install another brake light...yea..coulda,shoulda, NOT.

He really wasn't buying my one brake light story. I could tell. But i told him i could back it up with factual information. And that if he wanted to write me a ticket that was fine. But plan on being in court when the day came. That i wasn't going to install something that didn't come factory. No matter who liked it.

NO ticket. Drive on.

Im sort of a pain in the butt like that. I really wanted to install another brake/tail light. But i couldn't find a factory unit for the other rear door. And i like pissing cops off when i can win the fight.