An expensive lesson learned

[Mike Bradbury]

As many of you know this all started with a bent push rod in my SBC on the way to the Brothers truck show in July. My work schedule is pretty tight so I have not been able to dedicate a lot of time to fixing the problem.

I did not know why the rod failed because there was no piston to valve contact and there was no damaged component other than the push rod. I ended up upgrading the valve springs and push rods, converted to threaded rocker studs and guide plates. I then wanted to inspect the timing chain to make sure it did not slip a tooth, the timing chain has about 1/2 inch slop in it, but has not slipped. The one thing that made my heart sink was when I pulled the pan on my 14,000 mi crate motor there was all kinds of microscopic shavings in the bottom. Almost looked like graphite, until you get a magnet next to it and the slivers stand on end. Now I am looking at a complete rebuild. The main bearings are shot and I am now tearing it all down to a bare block.

The reason I am posting this in the general discussion and not the engine forum is because I was not planing on touching the engine during my build, it was the newest part on the truck when I started. But when it failed I when into investigation mode to figure out why it died after only 14,000 miles.

As a warning for all you guys out there who think motor oil is motor oil, take it from me and my expensive lesson, that they are not. I have run most of my vehicles on Mobil One so that is what I put in the C10. After about 6 months I started hearing stories about the zinc content in the modern oils, and I thought that well I will just finish this round with the synthetic and then change to something else. Well it did not make it that far and I am paying heavily for it.

The modern engines of today come standard with roller rockers and lifters, therefore the motor oil companies have reduced the zinc in the oil which helps lubricate the cam and lifters. Check the zinc in your oil. I am fortunate to live right down the road from Crower racing products and they do a lot of testing on motor oil. Just talked to them today and they said that they do not recommend any synthetic oils on flat tappet engines because they cannot guarantee damage will not occur.

[Lee H]

Are you saying the shavings are from the cam lobes?
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[Mt Man Chad]

Yep not the first time I've heard this. Same thing happened to a buddy's brand new big block with lots of $$$ into it.

http://www.zddplus.com/

[leddzepp]

I use Mobil 1 along with a zddp additive.

[Painter D]

Happened to me once also bud, it sucks.

In any of my flat tappet engines I run Valvoline VR1 now, it has plenty of zddp in it.

[k5hart]

Originally Posted by 69chevyshort

Happened to me once also bud, it sucks.

In any of my flat tappet engines I run Valvoline VR1 now, it has plenty of zddp in it.

I run this in my blazer. ^^

Have heard this story many times on other boards. Some don't have problems. Some kill the engine in 20 miles. Sorry for the loss.

[m6z]

Originally Posted by 69chevyshort

Happened to me once also bud, it sucks.

In any of my flat tappet engines I run Valvoline VR1 now, it has plenty of zddp in it.

That's what I run in flat tappet motors as well.

[C-10 simplex]

1) Which gm crate engine is this?

a) Are you positive that the oil caused the problem?; i have a crate engine horror story as well which i can refer if/when i find the link. i'm still not totally sure what caused the rod to bend, but it started with a bent pushrod as well. You may already be familiar with my story but i will try to find the link anyways.


2) NOTE: i use redline synthetic because this is one of the few oils i can find that has enough zddp in it because all my cars have flat lifters.

[Mike Bradbury]

Originally Posted by C-10 simplex

1) Which gm crate engine is this?

a) Are you positive that the oil caused the problem?; i have a crate engine horror story as well which i can refer if/when i find the link. i'm still not totally sure what caused the rod to bend, but it started with a bent pushrod as well. You may already be familiar with my story but i will try to find the link anyways.


2) NOTE: i use redline synthetic because this is one of the few oils i can find that has enough zddp in it because all my cars have flat lifters.

It is a '92 4 bolt main. The block was made in Mexico, Not sure if GM had farmed out all of it's manufacturing to mexico by then or if there are some of that vintage made in America. But the part that failed was the cam.

All I know is that the pan was spick-N-span just 1000 before when I powder coated it. So all the sludge and metal shavings occured after the Mobil One. There was no evidence of wear when I powder coated the pan.

*

[Mt Man Chad]

Originally Posted by leddzepp

I use Mobil 1 along with a zddp additive.

Always works in my rigs!

[domeier]

I don't mean to be negative, but I'd tend to place more suspicion on the engine build than a particular brand of oil. Be interested to hear what you find out when you tear it down. Whatever the cause, I feel your pain. That sucks.

[Mike Bradbury]

Originally Posted by domeier

I don't mean to be negative, but I'd tend to place more suspicion on the engine build than a particular brand of oil. Be interested to hear what you find out when you tear it down. Whatever the cause, I feel your pain. That sucks.

It was a GM crate motor, factory built, I had powder coated the oil pan just 1000 miles before the rod bent, so the pan was very clean with no sludge what so ever. When I reinstalled the pan I put in Mobil One for the first time. and only drove it on the week ends and then the long haul to the Brothers show. I will post a picture of the came when I get it out but since I have the engine upside down and I can see the lobes better, they look like there is more damage than I first thought. But all those little shavings have gotten into everything.

I am upgrading it all to roller everything so I never have to worry about zinc again.

[bigsnookmaster]

Originally Posted by Mike Bradbury

It was a GM crate motor, factory built, I had powder coated the oil pan just 1000 miles before the rod bent, so the pan was very clean with no sludge what so ever. When I reinstalled the pan I put in Mobil One for the first time. and only drove it on the week ends and then the long haul to the Brothers show. I will post a picture of the came when I get it out but since I have the engine upside down and I can see the lobes better, they look like there is more damage than I first thought. But all those little shavings have gotten into everything.

I am upgrading it all to roller everything so I never have to worry about zinc again.

I feel your pain! Sorry to hear about that. I have been running a solid roller for a couple of years, with no problems so far. I also run Jesel shaft rockers, and Isky red-zone e-z roll lifters. They don't come out of adjustment. It's expensive, but if it lasts, it's worth it. .02

[OhOneWS6]

Thank you for posting this. Hopefully it will save someone else. It still surprises me that with every example of this issue, there are those who read the evidence and still think you can run a flat tappet cam without zinc in the oil.

It's not just the evolution of roller motors in modern vehicles that has resulted in the removal of zinc from motor oil. A roller motor will survive just fine with zinc in the oil. The EPA wants heavy metals out of the oil.

This is something that is changing daily. Even if your oil of choice had zinc in it last time you purchased it, check the label the next time you buy it. it also depends on where you live. Here in TX we can still buy VR1 off the shelf. not sure you can do that in CA.

[domeier]

Originally Posted by Mike Bradbury

It was a GM crate motor, factory built

Okay. Now I'm terrified.

[Pont406]

I posted this before from Crower:

Use of Synthetic Oils
Crower does not recommend the use of synthetic motor oil in any application, particularly in hydraulic and flat tappet camshafts. If your car manufacturer's owners manual suggests running synthetic oil, you may do so. The minimum gains in horsepower are offset by the excessive wear to cam and lifter surfaces. We have found that the benefits, of synthetic motor oil, do not outweigh the costs and may endanger your engine's life. Crower recommends a non-detergent / race only petroleum based 30wt. motor oil in all performance applications. The lack of phosphorus and zinc in current oil blends is catastrophic to engine longevity. For all applications we do recommend running our ZDDPlus additive, which adds zinc and phosphorus back into the oil. For additional information on oil, click here!

http://www.crower.com/faq/#h

[406 Q-ship]

I believe that Mobil has a synthetic that still carries the zinc of the older spec oils. I will have to look and try to find where I read that to post here. Synthetic isn't the problem it is the lack of the zinc, all oils currently sold out of the regular retail stores lack the zinc needed for scrubber cams. I use either Diesel (rotello) oil or add a can of STP (still has the zinc), one day I will make the switch to a roller cam engine but for now it is additive.

[DeputyDan]

Originally Posted by 406 Q-ship

I believe that Mobil has a synthetic that still carries the zinc of the older spec oils. I will have to look and try to find where I read that to post here. Synthetic isn't the problem it is the lack of the zinc, all oils currently sold out of the regular retail stores lack the zinc needed for scrubber cams. I use either Diesel (rotello) oil or add a can of STP (still has the zinc), one day I will make the switch to a roller cam engine but for now it is additive.

Try Royal Purple it's got the whole 9 yerds and you can get it at any autoparts store.

[big d's red67]

Happened to my BBC after 15 miles on the motor, I have a roller cam now. hate you had the same problem.

[OJ1988]

MAgazines have been harping on this for a couple years now.

I thought it was pretty common knowledge at this point that if you are running a flat tappet cam, you need to add zinc or find some specialty oil with it still in it.

I 'm using Brad Penn Green oil in my flat tappet motor.

[leddzepp]

From a Corvette forum, regarding VR-1: http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-t...ht-it-was.html

[RenoKeene]

Originally Posted by leddzepp

From a Corvette forum, regarding VR-1: http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-t...ht-it-was.html

Wow! I read the entire thread you linked to. Seems the most economically sensible thing to run in my basically stock flat tappet 402 is any decent non-synthetic with a high ZDDP additive as simple as STP.
You stated earlier you use Mobil 1 with an additive. Which additive do you use?
Mine is the original motor that came in my truck, not high RPM build.
Thanks.

BTW, everyone with a flat tappet build should read that thread!

[RenoKeene]

Damn sure don't want to have to tear this down after 14,000 miles!

Sorry for the highjack and sorry about your engine trouble but you may have just saved me from the same fate. Thanks.

[OhOneWS6]

Originally Posted by RenoKeene

Wow! I read the entire thread you linked to. Seems the most economically sensible thing to run in my basically stock flat tappet 402 is any decent non-synthetic with a high ZDDP additive as simple as STP.
You stated earlier you use Mobil 1 with an additive. Which additive do you use?
Mine is the original motor that came in my truck, not high RPM build.
Thanks.

BTW, everyone with a flat tappet build should read that thread!

You better read the label on those products. That thread was started in 2007. A lot has changed since then. I realize there are more recent posts in that thread but as I said earlier this is changing on an almost daily basis. There are plenty of products out there that had ZDDP back in 2007 that do not now.

Here is another thread with an email response from STP back in 2007.
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/anyt...red-label.html

I could be wrong (6 lug wheels LOL) but I believe at this time there in no ZDDP in STP oil treatment. There is no mention of it on their site. If it was in there you can bet they would be advertising it.

http://www.stp.com/products/oil-addi...oil-treatment/

This is a very heavily debated subject. Not only "Is ZDDP in the oil? but "How much is enough?" Everyone should do the research make their own decision on what to use. Be sure to check bottles and dates on the info because it does change. You may find some product on the shelf that has ZDDP right now only to find the next time you buy it the product no longer does.

I can only speak for my experience. I have a mild flat tappet 425 HP Pontiac 400 in my jet boat. I broke it in on VR-1 and still run VR-1. It gets rung out pretty hard through the summer and after 3 seasons on the lake I have had no cam/lifter issues.

[eightbanger]

Thanks for the heads up...sorry it had to come at such cost to you though.