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#1 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Longview, TX
Posts: 20
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Experts Question re: Dealer Added Factory Options
Hey folks, I usually hang out over in 60-66 but I'm up against some confusing info on a '71 I'm looking into.
first: the truck is on the East Coast and I'm in TX. The current is the second owner and he bought from the estate, so no contact or conversation with the (deceased) original owner. I've received a *bunch* of pictures. I've looked at all the details to the extent that I am able. This '71 is a low-mile "survivor" with a repaint but not a restoration.... and no Krylon, anywhere. The truck a *nice* 71 C10 2wd 350 TH swb The truck has Factory AC. The weird bit: The truck has all its docs, SPID, even the window sticker. Everything is awesome except that the AC is not listed. I'm not new at this; I've checked all the indicators for correctness that I can see. The VIN tag has the right rivets. The S.P.I.D. list matches everything on the truck saved for the air. The AC is clearly all of the correct factory pieces, and would appear factory installed. Now, back in the day, the dealers could buy "up-option kits" to install items that were not ordered on a particular car, for example cruise control. The Up-option kit had ALL the required pieces to install the cruise exactly like the cruise in the factory installed units, right down to the rubber grommets. Once installed at the dealer, you could never tell that the cruise was not factory. I'm aware that dealer installs of "hangdown" AC was prevalent at the time (I recall $400 for it) but my question is this: Does anyone know if the factory ever offered an Up-Option Kit to install the **factory** Air? It would've been crazy expensive and very involved to install, but I'm left wondering if it was ever offered...and maybe done to this truck?? I'm certain the firewall is different, so it would be really odd. Anyone have any ideas to explain this install, assuming the cab and VIN and docs are legit? (trying to post pics...standby) Last edited by Nufsed; 04-26-2016 at 05:01 PM. |
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#2 |
All about them K’s
![]() Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Land of Entrapment
Posts: 6,382
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Re: Experts Question re: Dealer Added Factory Options
I can't say for sure but I doubt it because the cabs are different from non a/c to a/c both the dash and firewall. Somebody probably added it later in its life by modifying the passenger firewall. I've never heard of a dealer doin this but that don't mean much I suppose.
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Tyler '57 3100 http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=813888 '72 K20 Cheyenne http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=662879 ‘69 K10 SWB http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=805206 '98 Silverado LT K2500HD ECLB Vortec 454/4l80E: 6" lift 315/75/16's ‘87 IROC-Z all original 50K mile survivor TPI 305 IROC Blue ‘10 Camaro 2SS/RS Aqua Blue Metallic #93 -version 2.0 ![]() Last edited by 57taskforce; 04-26-2016 at 06:00 PM. |
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#3 |
20' Daredevil (Ret)
![]() Join Date: May 2003
Location: Jefferson State
Posts: 13,640
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Re: Experts Question re: Dealer Added Factory Options
This is probably a dumb question, but by any chance could the SPID be an incorrect replacement and not the original? This would assume the A/C is factory installed.
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- Mike - 1972 K20 LWB 350/350/205 RIP El Jay |
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#4 |
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 6,332
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Re: Experts Question re: Dealer Added Factory Options
I have the dealer addon catalog for '70 and the dealer-optioned AC is an under-dash unit. Your truck is presumably an AC cab, right? That's a very involved conversion if the truck wasn't built that way originally.
It's always conceivable the PO got a donor truck and really wanted AC. If it's done well enough that you can't tell, unless it's a super-rare truck that you need to fully document for some reason, I wouldn't take it as a negative.
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1970 GMC Sierra Grande Custom Camper - Built, not Bought 1969 Pontiac 2+2 427/390 4-speed Coupe 1969 Pontiac 2+2 427/390 4-speed Convertible |
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#5 |
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 6,332
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Re: Experts Question re: Dealer Added Factory Options
Here's the page:
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1970 GMC Sierra Grande Custom Camper - Built, not Bought 1969 Pontiac 2+2 427/390 4-speed Coupe 1969 Pontiac 2+2 427/390 4-speed Convertible |
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#6 |
Senior Member
![]() Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Godley, TX
Posts: 17,963
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Re: Experts Question re: Dealer Added Factory Options
pretty sure this would be a previous owner add on - a cab swap - or a SPID/gb door swap. Not something a dealer would do. As pointed out above, any dealer add-on a/c was normally under-dash.
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#7 |
Registered User
![]() Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Omaha NE
Posts: 620
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Re: Experts Question re: Dealer Added Factory Options
My 1972 has dealer installed A/C with documentation. My unit is very different from factory but is not an under dash unit. Has side vents and center vent, but the dash is different and so is under the hood. The controls for the unit are on the center vent unit. Not sure if this helps. I am not sure your situation would stop me from buying if all the numbers would allow it to be plated without DMV problems.
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#8 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Moss Point,Ms.
Posts: 1,439
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Re: Experts Question re: Dealer Added Factory Options
Quote:
I've just finished adding factory air to my 68. It is a long, time consuming job.Especially the firewall work. mike. ![]() |
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#9 |
Moderator
![]() Join Date: May 2007
Location: Southern Cal
Posts: 20,005
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Re: Experts Question re: Dealer Added Factory Options
Yep, dead giveaway. Somebody went to a lot of trouble adding factory AC to that truck. Here is the control cable hole without the grommet.
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1972 C/10 Cheyenne Super SWB. Restored, loaded, slammed. 1968 C/10 50th Anniversary LWB. Unrestored, stock, daily driver/work truck. RIP ElJay RIP 67ChevyRedneck RIP Grumpy Old Man |
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#10 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Moss Point,Ms.
Posts: 1,439
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Re: Experts Question re: Dealer Added Factory Options
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#11 |
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: bisbee, arizona
Posts: 1,529
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Re: Experts Question re: Dealer Added Factory Options
it looks factory to me. there is enough evidence out there to approch SPIDs with some caution. Most of the time they are crrect but often enough there are ty[ically errors of ommission as well.
Both of my trucks were purchased from the family of the origonal owners. no mods to increase values. but some options clearly origonal to the truck were not listed on the SPID for either truck. The reason I feal,certain that this is a mistake.... none of those ommitted options do anything to increase the value of the truck. Both trucks. And niether previos owner was aware of the spid plate in the glove box. none braged about the errors or hyped them up to increase sales appeal of the truck....both trucks. regardless what the option is, it does not increase or decrease the likely hood that its ommission from the spid plate was other than a simple error. in other words, AC is a big option and unlikely to be over looked when actually looking at the truck. But remember that its not the huge AC unit on the truck that was overlooked or ommitted in error. It was a single option listed on a spid plate, printed up in some room off the main assembly line that was ommitted. Huge numbers of these trucks were comming off the assembly line each day, I read somewhere that GM hired an additional 6000 employees to work nights and week ends to fill orders. Vehicles comming off the line at that rate? do you, me or anybody else believe they had time to screw up a spid plate and reprint another corrected one. I dont know. It would be very easy to tell if the cab is different from the origonal one ore it sombody added factory AC to thier cabe later. look very closely at details and either possibility becomes clear. but dont discount a simple error of omission on the spid plate. Its happened enough that it does not defy belief. |
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#12 | |||
Registered User
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Motor City
Posts: 9,200
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Re: Experts Question re: Dealer Added Factory Options
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You seem to be under the misconception that there was a person sitting in a room somewhere typing up SPID labels as the truck went by, trying to match the label to the content. That is not correct; the option database was created and loaded at the beginning of the model year. The option content for the specific truck was downloaded to the final assembly location system after the dealer order was approved. The information was "broadcast", or disseminated, and printed through the whole plant at the same time to each area of interest, specifically the chassis, motor line, body, and paint build sheets, including printing the window sticker (Mulroney label). SPID labels were broadcast at the same time and printed well in advance of the vehicle arriving in station. Although "Air Conditioning" looks like one line on the SPID it is actually a complex option affecting several areas of build - body, trim, engine and final line. As such - if it's not on the build sheet - it's not going on the truck. If it's not on the build sheet - it's not on the SPID. I know that mistakes get made (in Flint the guy that installed the SPID labels worked for me) but I can see that on a simple, stand alone option (like a trailer hitch); not on something as integrated across the vehicle as A/C. A disconnect there would bring the process to a screeching halt. Quote:
That's why no "thinking" was required as the line was running. Everything was laid out months and years in advance, such that all the assembler had to do was read the build sheet and install the indicated part. That includes the pre-printed SPID label. K
__________________
Chevrolet Flint Assembly 1979-1986 GM Full Size Truck Engineering 1986 - 2019 Intro from an Old Assembly Guy: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=342926 My Pontiac story: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=560524 Chevelle intro: http://www.superchevy.com/features/s...hevy-chevelle/ Last edited by Keith Seymore; 04-27-2016 at 12:41 PM. |
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#13 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: bisbee, arizona
Posts: 1,529
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Re: Experts Question re: Dealer Added Factory Options
Quote:
Nice try. but dazzling us with obscure details that you alone are privy to does not make any of us wrong because your facts cannot be confirmed. Because I dont know which room the spids were printed off in does not mean Im wrong when I state they were printed in some room somewhere.I had relatives working at the GM plant in Wilmington Delaware. When friends and family ordered up a vehicle (impala) it got loaded with many additional options not on any order sheet. So there are several possible reasons that options may appear on a vehicle and not on the spid . You with your vast knowlege of every minute detail You cannot account for every possibility and variation. People print spid's and people make mistakes. And you wernt there standing over somebody's sholder watching. I at least gave creadence to the possibility that it could be faked and its easily detected. You seem to insist that I am wrong rather than giving creadence to either possibility. You could not possibly be everywhere at once all the time through out your million year long carreer at GM. Ever one makes mistakes. The guy off in some room that only you know of, printing off spids, he could have made mistakes. I certainly can and have made mistakes, And you certainly have made mistakes. Why not limit your contributions the factual ones, to the subject rather than trying to fault others. just exactly what evidence do you have that his spid is right and the truck is wrong. I'm looking at the same pictures you are and at least give consideration to either possibility.And do me a favor. next time you see the guy.... whos sholder you wer standing over....in 68 and 72 when my trucks came off the line, tell him to come over and remove those accessories that are on my truck and not on my spid plate. Sorry but I'm not buying the fact that you were everywhere at once all the time watching everything everybody did. I'm noy convinced. Even if the ac on this truck is faked, you have not convinced me at all that spids are always right. Show your proof. |
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#14 |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Tampa Bay
Posts: 1,549
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Re: Experts Question re: Dealer Added Factory Options
Nufsed, Where was this pic taken? It doesn't appear to be attached to the glove box door.
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CHEVY/GMC VIN DECODERS |
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#15 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Longview, TX
Posts: 20
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Re: Experts Question re: Dealer Added Factory Options
Quote:
Obviously, we all see the SPID removal as heretical and damning. I don't know that it makes *everything wrong* about the truck. The VIN plate is pretty convincing but I haven't traveled across country to verify the stamped VIN on the frame or other locations that you guys can tell me the location of. Frame rail right by the power steering pump, right? where else? Is the VIN stamped directly into the cab metal somewhere? Last edited by Nufsed; 04-27-2016 at 07:57 PM. |
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#16 | ||||
Registered User
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Motor City
Posts: 9,200
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Re: Experts Question re: Dealer Added Factory Options
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I apologize if I gave the impression that I was claiming to be everywhere at once. That was certainly not my intent. One doesn't need to be everywhere at once to understand how the process works, and its limitations. It only feels like it has been a million years. I will say that I have either been employed by or launched product in about a dozen GM assembly plants over the last 38 years (Flint, Pontiac, Ft Wayne, Oshawa, Janesville, St Louis, Arlington, Silao, Wentzville, Detroit-Hamtramck, Mishawaka plus a couple prototype build shops and one skunk works, to be precise). That's separate from leading about a half dozen vehicle programs from clay concepts to full volume production. Plus time at both the Milford and the Desert Proving Ground. I'd love to visit with your relatives from Wilmington and swap stories if ever given the chance. As I already mentioned the guy who installed the SPID labels in Flint worked for me when I was a supervisor on the line; I will let the other readers come to their own conclusions. If you ever make it to the Motor City I'd be happy to show you around. K
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Chevrolet Flint Assembly 1979-1986 GM Full Size Truck Engineering 1986 - 2019 Intro from an Old Assembly Guy: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=342926 My Pontiac story: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=560524 Chevelle intro: http://www.superchevy.com/features/s...hevy-chevelle/ Last edited by Keith Seymore; 04-28-2016 at 12:58 PM. |
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#17 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Edwards, CA
Posts: 7,503
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Re: Experts Question re: Dealer Added Factory Options
Quote:
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Thanks, Tim * VIN/Model Decoders * Power Team Charts (engine/transmission/gear ratio) * Post Your Pickup SPID ** Blazer SPID ** Suburban/Panel SPID * RTFM ... Read The Factory Manuals... download 'em here Highlanders ** Do you have a 1972 Plaid Pickup? ** Plaid Blazer ** Plaid Suburban |
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#18 |
Senior Member
![]() Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 7,915
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Re: Experts Question re: Dealer Added Factory Options
I'm kind of thinking along the lines of Mike16. I had a customer's brand-new 75 Camaro come in with a complaint of a clunk in the driver's door. I pulled the panel and out came an empty whiskey bottle. These were mass-produced, and done in an age before computers and bar codes. Could a clerk have missed a line on a SPID? It's not too unlikely.
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#19 |
Special Order
![]() ![]() Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Mt Airy, MD
Posts: 85,859
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Re: Experts Question re: Dealer Added Factory Options
I have "heard" of people insisting the dealer add "factory air" to a truck before. I have always been skeptical of that, but it certainly is possible to do...for the right amount of money
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"BUILDING A BETTER WAY TO SERVE THE USA"......67/72......"The New Breed" GMC '67 C1500 Wideside Super Custom SWB: 327/M22/3.42 posi.........."The '67" (project) GMC '72 K2500 Wideside Sierra Custom Camper: 350/TH350/4.10 Power-Lok..."The '72" (rolling) Tim "Don't call me a redneck. I'm a rough cut country gentleman" R.I.P. ~ East Side Low Life ~ El Jay ~ 72BLUZ ~ Fasteddie69 ~ Ron586 ~ 67ChevyRedneck ~ Grumpy Old Man ~ |
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#20 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Longview, TX
Posts: 20
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Re: Experts Question re: Dealer Added Factory Options
Wow! thanks for the replies, folks. I agree that an omission from the SPID is most likely what's going on here.
The other bit is the "window sticker" where the actual money is tallied also omits it. That is especially weird. Of course, there was never an actual window sticker on these trucks in the showrooms, but it's the equivalent doc. Maybe the guy just got a steal on the truck due to a clerical error? Evidence that backs up the AC being factory is the inclusion of other items that were likely prerequisites for AC trucks:V8 engine, tinted glass and "special insulation" included in the "Z62 cust comf & conv eq" package. Speaking with the current (second) owner (who has owned it for a number of years) I don't get any indication of misrepresentation. He simply doesn't get why it's not on the papers, either. I've been looking at these trucks intently for a couple of years, now, looking for the "right one" and Oh, Lordy, I have been finding a LOT of 'kit' trucks. Cut frames, engine swaps, driveline mismatches, etc. And, of course, LMC has sold more Cheyenne packages than Chevrolet, it seems. This place is a great resource. Some great info and help on this sight! On the subject of these trucks generally, another detail question: I know about the mirror boss that indicates a pre-72 cab.... are there any other details that will call out cab year differences within the 67-71s? Are there differences in the cab that will indicate that it was originally built as a stepside or cab/chassis? (On the 60-66 trucks there is a filler panel used on the cab that is for SS only) As as token of appreciation, let me offer my Brake info as a resource, perhaps, that you guys may find helpful in your projects http://www.pbase.com/nufsed/drumbrake |
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#21 | |
Registered User
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Motor City
Posts: 9,200
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Re: Experts Question re: Dealer Added Factory Options
Quote:
See above. Incidently, there are Federal regulations governing the inclusion of options. If a person gets an option they didn't pay for (...like a trailer hitch...) - that's ok. If a person pays for an option but doesn't get it - that is a violation of Federal Trade Commission rules and GM could be subject to recalls, fines and sanctions. If we accidentally built a truck without A/C that was supposed to have it - we wouldn't attempt a repair. We would simply build another truck (with a new VIN) with the right option content. The incorrect truck would go to dealer stock or to dealer auction. K
__________________
Chevrolet Flint Assembly 1979-1986 GM Full Size Truck Engineering 1986 - 2019 Intro from an Old Assembly Guy: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=342926 My Pontiac story: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=560524 Chevelle intro: http://www.superchevy.com/features/s...hevy-chevelle/ Last edited by Keith Seymore; 04-27-2016 at 02:10 PM. |
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#22 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Longview, TX
Posts: 20
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Re: Experts Question re: Dealer Added Factory Options
Adding a couple of pics
which may help... or not and my apologies as I thought these had posted in the first post but something went sideways and they didn't post. Trying again: |
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#23 | |
Registered User
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Motor City
Posts: 9,200
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Re: Experts Question re: Dealer Added Factory Options
Quote:
Somebody went to a lot of trouble to add air to that truck after it left the vehicle assembly plant. K
__________________
Chevrolet Flint Assembly 1979-1986 GM Full Size Truck Engineering 1986 - 2019 Intro from an Old Assembly Guy: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=342926 My Pontiac story: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=560524 Chevelle intro: http://www.superchevy.com/features/s...hevy-chevelle/ Last edited by Keith Seymore; 04-27-2016 at 12:39 PM. |
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#24 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Longview, TX
Posts: 20
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Re: Experts Question re: Dealer Added Factory Options
Quote:
Since you were there, I've often wondered, if something went wrong, and a part broke or the engine wouldn't start right up, what did they do? What if someone fell or just didn't install their part on one, did the next guy *shut the line down*? or did these trucks get sidelined and repaired/finished somehow? I've always wondered how lines like that work. |
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#25 | ||
Registered User
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Motor City
Posts: 9,200
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Re: Experts Question re: Dealer Added Factory Options
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If a truck wouldn't start - they had these little gas powered "mule" tugs that had push bumpers on them. They would push the disabled vehicle over into the "deadhead" repair hole without shutting the line down. Pretty much anything would get pushed to the back. If parts didn't fit or were wrong they'd throw them in the pickup box. If the cab didn't set down or it had a wrong box they'd just leave it and it would ride all the way down the line. We had a library of tire/wheel assemblies such that if a truck was built with a wrong axle then the corresponding wrong tire/wheel assembly would be installed. The truck would be repaired out back in a "heavy repair" stall. The only way it would shut down (during regular production) was if further damage would ensue, like if a tool got stuck on a vehicle and the air hose was getting stretched to the point of being pulled off. There are extra "relief" personnel around to fill in if someone gets sick or gets called out on an emergency. If you are really desparate then the "quality man" (an hourly right hand man) or even the salaried foreman himself gets on the job to keep going, but you would not shut the main line down. Shut downs during the beginning of of the model year (new product launch) are fairly common at first, and are budgeted for. Shutdowns in the rear areas of the plant (body and paint) or feeder lines (fender line, front end sheetmetal and motor line) are more common because you can go down, sometimes for long periods, without shutting the final line down. But plant management is very touchy about shutting the main line (chassis and final) down for even short periods. K
__________________
Chevrolet Flint Assembly 1979-1986 GM Full Size Truck Engineering 1986 - 2019 Intro from an Old Assembly Guy: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=342926 My Pontiac story: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=560524 Chevelle intro: http://www.superchevy.com/features/s...hevy-chevelle/ Last edited by Keith Seymore; 04-27-2016 at 02:41 PM. |
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