how about hydrogen?

[Boog]

This is interesting. Mitch Stapleton interviewed this fella who is deep into development of hydrogen powered vehicles. Yes, hydrogen is explosive but it can be used, and is currently used on some vehicles on the streets right now like busses and there are hydrogen fuel sites out there already. He said there are forklifts at Walmarts and other businesses running indoors successfully as it produces no carbon. What I did not hear from him is a comparison in mpg to gasoline, etc.
His personal 50 or so Chevy truck is his test mule with 6 lt supercharged with 6 speed trans. It makes all the right sounds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAEhhYqMEBE

[Getter-Done]

I can only say 1 Thing.

Rainbow Stew - YouTube

[Sheepdip]

Watched it ....very interesting. I actually knew a guy who was playing with this stuff back in the late 70's, he ended up blowing the hood and a few other parts off his Ford Pinto in the middle of the freeway.

[Steeveedee]

Hydrogen has a lower energy density by volume than any other fuel. I didn't watch the video long enough to find out what the range would be with that tank. Also, liquid hydrogen boils off pretty fast. I wouldn't want my vehicle to have the tank exposed to the sun. More power to him, maybe he can make something out of this.

[Stocker]

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...gen-cars-fcev/

[1970 CST Short Wide]

I retired from Chevron Research. One of my team leaders, Boss, was very much into Hydrogen. Back in the late 90s he started making Hydrogen in his back yard. It powered his Stove and refrigerator. He also developed and Sold HydroQs, BBQs that burned Hydrogen. This guy was a Brainiac and the best Boss I ever had. I think Hydrogen has a Future here along with some other fuels people are working on. Nice thing about burning Hydrogen is all you get out of the tail pipe is water H2O You gota love it, sorry Tesla

[truckster]

Here's the problem with hydrogen: While hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe, on Earth it's extremely rare except chemically bound to other elements. Breaking those bonds requires an input of energy. 95% of hydrogen produced in the world is made from fossil fuels and requires a significant energy input to produce. It is possible to produce hydrogen by electrolysis of water, but that also requires a significant energy input and a limited resource (fresh water). If hydrogen is produced from salt water through electrolysis, some pretty nasty byproducts (including chlorine gas) are formed.

The bottom line: Hydrogen is far from a clean source of energy.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by truckster

Here's the problem with hydrogen: While hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe, on Earth it's extremely rare except chemically bound to other elements. Breaking those bonds requires an input of energy. 95% of hydrogen produced in the world is made from fossil fuels and requires a significant energy input to produce. It is possible to produce hydrogen by electrolysis of water, but that also requires a significant energy input and a limited resource (fresh water). If hydrogen is produced from salt water through electrolysis, some pretty nasty byproducts (including chlorine gas) are formed.

The bottom line: Hydrogen is far from a clean source of energy.

My question would be- is it cleaner to produce than electricity? A major portion of electricity production and the inefficient solar production components still use fossil fuels here in california. Seems a standard engine can burn it and there is no 1000lb battery to dispose of at end of life as well.

[68bowtie]

Originally Posted by Richard

My question would be- is it cleaner to produce than electricity?

Hydrogen should be considered energy storage. Not generation.

It takes energy to create the hydrogen (separation the H from the O). Usually through electrolysis. Then as you burn it through combustion you get the energy back.

In a grid scale application it makes sense paired with solar and wind. Since the sun doesn’t always shine and the wind doesn’t always blow. Hydrogen can be a regulator. The issues are it’s very expensive and 100% blend isn’t quite yet proven.

As for cars, I don’t see why hydrogen has any benefit over EV’s.

[truckster]

Originally Posted by 68bowtie

Hydrogen should be considered energy storage. Not generation.

It takes energy to create the hydrogen (separation the H from the O). Usually through electrolysis. Then as you burn it through combustion you get the energy back.

In a grid scale application it makes sense paired with solar and wind. Since the sun doesn’t always shine and the wind doesn’t always blow. Hydrogen can be a regulator. The issues are it’s very expensive and 100% blend isn’t quite yet proven.

As for cars, I don’t see why hydrogen has any benefit over EV’s.

Actually, less than 5% of hydrogen is produced through electrolysis. The largest source is steam reforming of methane, followed by coal. Hydrogen is not an energy-efficient fuel.

[68bowtie]

Originally Posted by truckster

Actually, less than 5% of hydrogen is produced through electrolysis. The largest source is steam reforming of methane, followed by coal. Hydrogen is not an energy-efficient fuel.

I stand corrected thank you. I’m referring to my work experience where we evaluated (past tense) feasibility of converting our natural gas power plants to hydrogen. But I don’t know what other industries use other options. Same conclusion though I think.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by 68bowtie

Hydrogen should be considered energy storage. Not generation.

It takes energy to create the hydrogen (separation the H from the O). Usually through electrolysis. Then as you burn it through combustion you get the energy back.

In a grid scale application it makes sense paired with solar and wind. Since the sun doesn’t always shine and the wind doesn’t always blow. Hydrogen can be a regulator. The issues are it’s very expensive and 100% blend isn’t quite yet proven.

As for cars, I don’t see why hydrogen has any benefit over EV’s.

IDK? Guess I am not smart enough to get what you are saying. Electricity is produced and used or stored in batteries for later use. Hydrogen is already there, extracted and stored in a tank. Electricity cost in Ca is is really high. Most of it here comes from what is commonly called fossil fuels (energy to produce) and NEM 3.0 has made solar a 15+ year investment to break even. Was just wondering if the cost to extract hydrogen would be less than cost of producing electricity.

[GOPAPA]

I have a neighbor who built a Hydrogen Datsun pickup and says it ran very good but to heavy to be competive with gasloine motors ,, he is 93 years old and very bright minded

[Boog]

With 0 emissions the inside of the engines should stay looking like brand new. Much like an LP fuel'd engine, only better.

[Getter-Done]

Originally Posted by Boog

With 0 emissions the inside of the engines should stay looking like brand new. Much like an LP fuel'd engine, only better.

Very True.

[Getter-Done]

Originally Posted by GOPAPA

I have a neighbor who built a Hydrogen Datsun pickup and says it ran very good but to heavy to be competive with gasloine motors ,, he is 93 years old and very bright minded

Do you Remember the Stanley Meyer story?

Link: https://www.makeuseof.com/why-no-water-powered-cars/

[truckster]

Originally Posted by Getter-Done

Do you Remember the Stanley Meyer story?

Link: https://www.makeuseof.com/why-no-water-powered-cars/

Yeah, the problem with that is that the laws of physics don't negotiate...

Let's say you were able to create a system that created hydrogen and oxygen from water using electrolysis. Then you use that hydrogen and oxygen to power a combustion engine. The combustion engine runs an alternator that provides the power for electrolysis. A perfect system, right?

Oh, wait... did you notice the exhaust manifold is hot, or at least warm? That's an energy loss, so you're producing less electricity than it takes to operate your engine. That's the first law of thermodynamics in action.

Let's pretend that you're able to construct a perfect system, with absolutely no energy loss (not possible, but we're pretending). Your system generates just enough energy to keep itself running. If you connect it to any load, for example, the drive mechanism of a car, you've now created an energy loss. That first law of thermodynamics won't even let us pretend.

Physics... it's not just a good idea, it's the law.

[Getter-Done]

Originally Posted by truckster

Yeah, the problem with that is that the laws of physics don't negotiate...

Let's say you were able to create a system that created hydrogen and oxygen from water using electrolysis. Then you use that hydrogen and oxygen to power a combustion engine. The combustion engine runs an alternator that provides the power for electrolysis. A perfect system, right?

Oh, wait... did you notice the exhaust manifold is hot, or at least warm? That's an energy loss, so you're producing less electricity than it takes to operate your engine. That's the first law of thermodynamics in action.

Let's pretend that you're able to construct a perfect system, with absolutely no energy loss (not possible, but we're pretending). Your system generates just enough energy to keep itself running. If you connect it to any load, for example, the drive mechanism of a car, you've now created an energy loss. That first law of thermodynamics won't even let us pretend.

Physics... it's not just a good idea, it's the law.

Yeah for sure.

That's why this thing never went any farther.

[Greg58]

I used to work at a food plant where we would Hydrogenate low calorie sweeteners.
We had a large Hydrogen tank that the senior techs called the bomb!
Sometimes that tank would over pressurize and the result was a safety release and then a boom!
We had to purge the whole system with Nitrogen gas to do any work around it.
The company decided the product was not worth the danger and pulled it all out.
Yeah!

Greg

[dmjlambert]

It's better to not burn the hydrogen at all at least until oh the humanity.

[DeadheadNM]

You can buy the Toyota Mirai today and get complimentary hydrogen: https://www.toyota.com/mirai/

I’ve seen a couple on the road in Orange County, CA.

[Steeveedee]

Given the paucity of hydrogen fueling stations, free will help a lot. If something like excess electricity generation from solar panels can make hydrogen for fuel use, that might help. But I'm not going to hold my breath on that.

[MySons68C20]

People also ask
What is the meaning of the word paucity?
noun. smallness of quantity; scarcity; scantiness: a country with a paucity of resources. smallness or insufficiency of number; fewness.

You win "Word of the day"

[DeadheadNM]

Originally Posted by Steeveedee

Given the paucity of hydrogen fueling stations, free will help a lot...

and the number looks to be contracting: https://www.autoweek.com/news/a46791...ns-california/

[GOPAPA]

Hyundai and Kia recently unveiled a zero-emission hydrogen engine in Korea, marking a significant leap in automotive technology. This innovation has the potential to disrupt the electric vehicle (EV) market, as the two automakers lead the development of hydrogen technology, focusing on both fuel cell systems and advanced hydrogen engine