Is my spindle too tall, or is my srping too short?

[44boggers]

Sorry for the double post, but maybe people missed it in my build thread.

I got my frame back from powder coating and it looks perfect. I am very happy with the result. Today I was able to get all of the front suspension on. But I do have a concern. I was able to get the upper and lower control arm together without using a jack to compress the spring. So right now, I have the spindle all bolted together and I am able to still move the spring around. Is this normal? I figured it would be like stock where I needed to compress the spring in order to put the spindle and control arms together.

All of my front suspension products are direct from CPP, 2" drop springs and spindles with their control arms . Can someone enlighten me on this? Am I missing something, Pics of my set up are below.

The other thing, I put all of the camber shims back in as they came out. On the driver side I have almost twice as many shims and the diver side rear shims are stacked so much I have zero threads showing through the nut. I have also attached pics of this.

Last thing. the pass, side spring has even less tension on it than the driver side, it basically flops around. Why would the pass and driver side have a different amount of spring tension? Both castle nuts are tightened down completely.

Please enlighten me. Thank you!

Paul

[mcmlxix]

I'm not sure what's going on but that many shims scare me. I would take half them out for now. It will need a proper alignment when its a complete truck anyway.

I would also start taking measurements on the frame. Diagonal measurements where ever you can find identical points on each frame rail. Make sure its square. Someone should have a frame diagram with measurements.

[44boggers]

Originally Posted by mcmlxix

I'm not sure what's going on but that many shims scare me. I would take half them out for now. It will need a proper alignment when its a complete truck anyway.

I would also start taking measurements on the frame. Diagonal measurements where ever you can find identical points on each frame rail. Make sure its square. Someone should have a frame diagram with measurements.

Frame measurements because you think something could be tweaked and that's why there are so many shims?

Should I just start by matching the shims to the other side?
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[mcmlxix]

Originally Posted by 44boggers

Frame measurements because you think something could be tweaked and that's why there are so many shims?

Should I just start by matching the shims to the other side?
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I see in your other thread that there were cracks in your frame. Was the truck in an accident? Were all the cross members removed for powder coat?

Also, too much heat (welding or oven baked powder coat?) could cause metal to warp. A frame is heavy and they're powder coated all the time without issue so maybe the too much heat theory is wrong, just throwing out ideas.

My theory is that since its a bare frame, start with simple measurements to rule things out. The best thing is to place the frame on level ground (or an actual frame table) an measure height of different points as well...

[44boggers]

Originally Posted by mcmlxix

I see in your other thread that there were cracks in your frame. Was the truck in an accident? Were all the cross members removed for powder coat?

Also, too much heat (welding or oven baked powder coat?) could cause metal to warp. A frame is heavy and they're powder coated all the time without issue so maybe the too much heat theory is wrong, just throwing out ideas.

My theory is that since its a bare frame, start with simple measurements to rule things out. The best thing is to place the frame on level ground (or an actual frame table) an measure height of different points as well...

I believe the cracks in the frame was from the steering box. Nothing appears to have been in an accident. The frame horns are good and it appears to be the original bumper with original brackets.

I removed the cross members for powder coating. Why are you asking about heat or warping? Do you think that has any relation to the spring issue or are you referring to the shims? I just replaced the shims exactly how they came out. Prior to tear down the truck seem to drive perfectly straight.

Thanks guys for all of the tips and advice. I'm also going to call cpp when they open.

Paul
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[andrewmp6]

I would start with the rear suspension and not worry about the front tell you got the drivetrain and the cab on for the extra weight it will need before the springs seat right.

[44boggers]

Originally Posted by andrewmp6

I would start with the rear suspension and not worry about the front tell you got the drivetrain and the cab on for the extra weight it will need before the springs seat right.

Ok, thanks guys for the replys!

I will let you know what I find out from CPP.

Paul

[44boggers]

So I just spoke with Tech at CPP and they said the same thing as chaplain and andrew, the weight of the drive train and body should set the springs in their pockets. I guess in my head I can't fully see how the weight will make a difference, since the control arms and spindle are bolted together, shouldnt that take up the slack? Cause what I have in my head is for example, what is the difference if the suspension is at full droop right now and the springs are loose, vs my truck becomes light in the front end, going over a big bump (or just say it got airborne) what would stop the spring from coming loose and almost falling out in that situation.

Im sorry if this seems absolutely ridiculous that I can't wrap my head around this. Because the way I see it, is the drivetrain and body rest on the frame, not on the suspension (when on jack stands and at full droop). So why would all of that weight make a difference?

Thanks and sorry at the same time!

[lolife99]

That is a TALL spring. You won't have to worry about it coming loose in the spring pocket.
I have 3" drop springs and my lower a-arms are parallel to the ground at ride height.
You have nothing to worry about, except if it's going to be low enough for you.

I bet you want a shorter spring when your truck is fully assembled,...

[jetmech85]

It won't make a difference until the suspension is compressed by the weight. Since the spring is not connected to the upper control arm but rather seated on the lower arm and up against the cross member, when more weight is added the lower control arm will try to push the spring deeper into the cross member. The upper is just along for the ride. You are probably correct in thinking if your truck became airborne the spring would loosen. It doesn't mean they would fall out in that split second. I wouldn't worry too much about shims until fully assembled and ready to go to alignment. Everything has changed from stock by using the tubular control arms. I really don't think you have a problem at this point.

[44boggers]

OK thanks guys. This is my first time playing with coil springs and actually lowering vehicles. I have built 4 link rock crawlers, but I guess since this will actually be driven on the road, I am trying to play it safe. Here is a pic of my first square body chevy I built.

Paul

[andrewmp6]

If the truck had that many shims before that would worry me,Most use none or maybe 1 or 2 never that many unless it has major problems.I'd take them all out and finish the front get it a rolling frame.Once i had it almost a full truck then id worry about getting the front alined enough to drive it to a shop to get a true alignment.

[kalbert]

Full droop is full droop, it makes no difference how much weight is on the chassis. A bare frame like this will be at full droop.

Three things to think about. One make sure you've got the bump stops in and they're touching the upper arm at full droop. The stops should be what limits down travel and up travel, not binding joints or interference.

Two, some shocks are built to be the travel limiter. Test your suspension travel with the shocks on. Make sure they don't bottom out or over extend (unless they are designed to be the limiter)

Three, put about 1/2" of shims all around for now, when you get the truck all done have it aligned. You can't align it until it is at curb weight.

Edit:
Looks like the upper bump stops that limit down travel are not touching. Also, looks like the upper ball joints are installed on the bottom of the arm. They should be on the top of the arm. I think that should resolve the issue moving the arm down just enough so the bump stop does its job.

[44boggers]

The arms came this way fully assembled from cpp. Do you think they installed them wrong?
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[kalbert]

I'm not familiar with CPP arms, but generally the bj always goes on top. Being on top the entire body of the joint is pulling the arm down. On bottom only the bolts are pulling. The bolts are just supposed to hold the bj on the arm, not carry load.

[44boggers]

I have seen a thread asking about the same thing with the ball joints, and they had the same response as me, they came that way. i just looked at a bunch of pics online of their arms and most of them were set up with the ball joint on the bottom.

With the arms at full droop right now and the bump stop not touching, I am not able to get my shock in. So that might mean (unless having the entire weight of the body and drivetrain on will make a difference) but that means that the shocks would be basically limiting straps and the bump stops wont come into play. Again maybe this has to do with not having any weight on the frame right now, but I would hate to pull the shocks apart.

[kalbert]

I'd flip the bj around. If it doesn't fit on top of send them back and get another brand that does I think.

[44boggers]

Looking quickly at the be this morning it looks like there is a provision for be to sit on top of the arm. I will call cpp when they open today. Thanks guys.

It's not so easy just to send parts back since I am in Europe.
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[andrewmp6]

You might have them on the wrong side but i'm not sure i haven't used theirs.

[44boggers]

No they are on the correct side. According to the directions at least. You are referring to the control arms or ball joints?
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[andrewmp6]

The control arms them self.

[44boggers]

Yes they are on the correct sides.
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[44boggers]

I spoke with CPP today and they said that you can mount the ball joints on either side. I asked him if there is any advantage or disadvantage to where you mount it and he said there is a chance of ripping the boot by mounting it on the top, that is all.

So that is where I am at with this. I am going to move this thread to my build thread "American in Austria build"

Thanks guys for all of the advice!

Paul

[44boggers]

Originally Posted by Chaplain

Perhaps you need some weight on the frame (i.e., motor, trans, finders, hood...). Also, have the control arms been fully torqued? I have been told to torque them down once the vehicle is back on the ground at ride height.

What do you mean by fully torquing the control arm? Do you mean the castle nuts?

Also I wouldn't think that weight on the frame would make a difference since the control arms/spindles are bolted together. It's seems like either the spindle is to tall or the spring is not long enough. Because if the spindle and control arms are fully bolted together shouldn't there be tension on the spring?

Thanks

Paul
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[hotrodder]

Whether you can rap your head around it or not, you are going to have the complete weight of the truck on the suspension before you can begin to get an idea of how it sits or how the front wheels are aligned. Go to an alignment shop. They will tell you the same thing.