NV4500 swap is underway

[DirtyLarry]

Well, winter is here so that means it is time to hunker down in the garage and fix all the of things that are driving me nuts in preparation for next year’s adventures.

I’ve been collecting parts for a while now so here is the list of upgrades planned over the next few months; NV4500, fresh Centerforce clutch, 1989 R/V instrument cluster, Hydroboost brakes, ZF high volume power steering pump from a medium duty truck with a huge remote reservoir (for future hydraulic winch that will replace the Sidewinder), P/S cooler, floorboard rust repair, Rhino lined interior floor, rubber floor mat (no more carpet!) and a new stereo to replace the 15 year old Jensen junk. Might even have the seats redone depending on how badly the budget gets blown.

It seems like only yesterday I was yanking a TH350 out to install this SM365 but the time has come where overdrive is badly needed on these long distance off-road trips we have been taking around Utah and Arizona the last few years. Hard to believe 12 years have passed since I swapped in the SM465 outside on a frosty January weekend in Detroit under a rental house carport. Man, I don’t miss those days of not having a garage…or miss living in Detroit!

Interior before tear down.




465/205 is out! Boy it interior looks terrible now!



Got to love modern engines with one piece rear main seals and aluminum oil pans. No oil leaks!


The rusty floorboards thanks to a leaky windshield that was replaced 15 years ago. I actually found this rust back in 1998 when I installed the SM465 but there wasn’t much I could do about it at the time as I didn’t have a welder when I lived in Michigan. Fortunately, the rust hasn’t gotten any worse in 12 years either.



In a perfect world, I really wanted to use a 1985 or newer 32 spline 205 with a round adapter to get away from the 205’s 10 spline shaft for obvious reasons but they are extremely hard to come by. Then, I had planned on replacing the input shaft in the existing 205 to 32 spline but I ran across a complete 27 spline 205 on Craigslist from a 1972 Blazer for a bargain. A few weeks ago I went through the 27 spline 205 and treated it to fresh bearings, seals and paint. I had just done the same to the 10 spline 205 about 2 years ago, which is why the both are wearing the same color of paint. Being I am going the route of the 27 spline now, a 27-0031 Advance Adapters NV4500 kit has been ordered up.


27 spline foreground. 10 spline background.


Also picked up a different turtle shell from an automatic truck being the shifter hole will be moving to a new spot on the NV4500. Easier to cut a hole in a fresh shell than patch up and the rework the old.


More to come in the coming week and months.

[Oilbrnr]

When I saw the first pic of the rear of the 8.1 I thought to myself how nice it is that these new motors don't leak, only to read your comment in the next pic! (I expect you to seal up that flat air-cooled six the same way Larry!)

What are you going to do about the rust this time around? And what's diff about an RV cluster?

Subscribed!

[DirtyLarry]

Originally Posted by Oilbrnr

When I saw the first pic of the rear of the 8.1 I thought to myself how nice it is that these new motors don't leak, only to read your comment in the next pic! (I expect you to seal up that flat air-cooled six the same way Larry!)

What are you going to do about the rust this time around? And what's diff about an RV cluster?

Subscribed!

Yeah, getting that Corvair sealed up like a modern engine is going to be a challenge.

The leaky windshield that caused all this rust was replaced many years ago. I bought the floor pieces from LMC to weld in then floor is getting Rhino’d so that should stop any future problems when the floor is wet.

The cluster is just a newer one from a 1989 Suburban and the last of the cable driven speedos. Ya know, they were known as R/V’s instead of C/K’s from ’88-’91.

[snj8198]

The engine looks way too clean! Not sure why but now I want a ZF high volume thingy bobber too. Have you thought about twin stickin the 205?

[DirtyLarry]

Originally Posted by snj8198

The engine looks way too clean! Not sure why but now I want a ZF high volume thingy bobber too. Have you thought about twin stickin the 205?

Here is what the ZF power steering pump looks like. There’re pretty sweet pumps although a bit pricy if you had to buy a new one for your TopKick/Kodiak or Workhorse chassis. There’re also about $800 for a brand new replacement though a dealer. The good news is I haven’t seen many fail.

This one is still mounted on an 8.1L accessory bracket. I’ll have to have some hoses made up.






I thought about a twin stick 205 for a few minutes but I have never been into a situation where I need one axle doing something different than the other.

[Oilbrnr]

Forgot about the R/V designation change. What are the best target trucks/years to get a NV4500 out of?

[DirtyLarry]

Originally Posted by Oilbrnr

Forgot about the R/V designation change. What are the best target trucks/years to get a NV4500 out of?

Well over the crude dump truck shifting 465, I think all NV4500’s are best. From what I have read 1992-1995 GM NV4500s are the most desirable as they have a lower granny gear…same as the 465 (6.34). I have two NV4500s, one Dodge and one GM, and both unfortunately, have the 5.61 granny which will be one of the concessions with this swap. The NV4500 being used for this swap is from a 1998 K3500. Oh, well…at least the 8.1L won’t sound like the pistons are swapping holes anymore when cruising down the highway at 70 MPH.

[snj8198]

You may like the '95 down 6.34 1st gear better for the back country trails i know you run, but the closer gear spacing between 1st/2nd, and 2nd/3rd in the '96 up makes driving nicer. Not that i have to tell you but that 8.1 makes enough low end grunt to still creep with the 5.61. I've tried both and like the '96 up better. I guess if you still needed more gear reduction a guy could swap in a 203 doubler with your 205 but that would sure lengthen your drivetrain for a short box truck.

[Oilbrnr]

So what hydraulic winch are you getting, and is the Hickey going to be transplanted to the K20 one of these days?

Also, with the NV, does the TC remain in the same location, or will you have to have driveline mods done?

[DirtyLarry]

Steve,

Indeed, the 6:34 would be nice to have for descending the steep grades we often encounter in the mountains around here or in the AZ/UT Canyonlands but gaining overdrive will be so welcoming I’ll probably forget about the 6:34 granny gear that will be missing. Which do you have in your truck right now?

Don,

I’ve been looking at a few different hydraulic winches. A few multispeed tow truck industry type hydraulic winches as well as a Milemarker HI12000. Whichever comes along cheaper. It will be down a road a ways before that plan comes together as I still need to buy a front bumper (Buckstop) or fab one up. You’re right! The current bumper and Sidewinder will eventually wind up on the K20 wrecker I recently inherited.

I haven’t received the AA kit yet but from the pictures I have found online it looks like the transfercase will be moving back about 5 to 6 inches, which I don’t like. I figured the shafts would need to be reworked, but I am not digging the idea of it moving back that far! I am somewhat considering a 1989 Suburban NP241 sitting at the local bone yard for $100 but nervous about putting it behind the 8.1L. Time will tell once the AA kit gets here and bolted together. If I don’t like the AA goods I may just grab the 241 and do a slip yoke eliminator kit and hope for the best. It would really suck to explode a tcase in the middle of the AZ/UT back country. GM didn’t use 241 behind big blocks, they were always Borg-Warner cases or the 261HD starting in 2001, both with the wrong front output.

[OldCreek]

Originally Posted by DirtyLarry

Steve,

Indeed, the 6:34 would be nice to have for descending the steep grades we often encounter in the mountains around here or in the AZ/UT Canyonlands but gaining overdrive will be so welcoming I’ll probably forget about the 6:34 granny gear that will be missing. Which do you have in your truck right now?

Don,

I’ve been looking at a few different hydraulic winches. A few multispeed tow truck industry type hydraulic winches as well as a Milemarker HI12000. Whichever comes along cheaper. It will be down a road a ways before that plan comes together as I still need to buy a front bumper (Buckstop) or fab one up. You’re right! The current bumper and Sidewinder will eventually wind up on the K20 wrecker I recently inherited.

I haven’t received the AA kit yet but from the pictures I have found online it looks like the transfercase will be moving back about 5 to 6 inches, which I don’t like. I figured the shafts would need to be reworked, but I am not digging the idea of it moving back that far! I am somewhat considering a 1989 Suburban NP241 sitting at the local bone yard for $100 but nervous about putting it behind the 8.1L. Time will tell once the AA kit gets here and bolted together. If I don’t like the AA goods I may just grab the 241 and do a slip yoke eliminator kit and hope for the best. It would really suck to explode a tcase in the middle of the AZ/UT back country. GM didn’t use 241 behind big blocks, they were always Borg-Warner cases or the 261HD starting in 2001, both with the wrong front output.

In regards to the 261HD driver drop: There was the thread on here, with pictures,from the guy who adapted a 261HD PASSENGER DROP to the back of his Allison 1000. I think you commented on it, also! So it seems that they do exist...but good luck finding one?

[DirtyLarry]

I hear you on the line lock safety but I might go that way myself eventually. Heck, your still alive so it can’t be all that bad.

I wanted to wait until the UPS man brought the AA kit to look over before I change the plan completely and from what I can tell this AA kit looks much better than I expected. They do send a new rear tail housing so overall, the length might not be an issue after all. I still don’t care for the coupler idea but I have to say their coupler is pretty beefy! Much more impression that the stock coupler that is for sure. From what I have seen so far, I think I am just going to stick with the AA kit and not worry about finding a round 205.

AA vs. stock coupler


Rear tail housing. Much better than what I expected.


This is what I was expecting. Look at that big bowl looking adapter between the transfercase and trans tail housing. Sure makes for a long ordeal. Glad it didn’t turn out like this!



Oldcreek,

You’re right, there was another member here that installed an 8.1L/Allison combo into a square truck and used pieces from a RH Dodge 231 mixed with pieces of a LH 261HD. It wasn’t a true RH 261HD…it was a combination of the two. Quite impressive concoction he put together no less. It would be interesting to explore that concoction someday in a different project.

Here is the link. His post is #12 http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...hlight=harness

[snj8198]

Im running the 5:61 with upgraded main shaft and 32 spline out. shifts nice with the broad bb power band.

What series center force are you planning to use?

What kind of fly wheel does the 8.1 have? 1 piece? 2?

[DirtyLarry]

Originally Posted by snj8198

Im running the 5:61 with upgraded main shaft and 32 spline out. shifts nice with the broad bb power band.

What series center force are you planning to use?

What kind of fly wheel does the 8.1 have? 1 piece? 2?

Man, you are really getting me excited to get this together now! The 8.1L and 465 is like driving a sports car engine with a dump truck transmission so I look forward to better matched powertrain!

I am running a DF024909 Centerforce Dual Friction clutch and pressure plate, which is actually a 12” clutch and pressure plate for a 73-95 7.4L (pre-internal slave cylinder). I am using the 7.4L clutch because it is cheaper than the 8.1L clutch and pressure plate plus I am not running the hydraulic internal slave cylinder/release bearing combo that would normally be found behind an 8.1L that requires a special pressure plate. Actually, the Centerforce clutch I just removed the same part number that I installed 12 years ago when the 465 was swapped in. That clutch as been behind my old 350, 454 HO and the 8.1L for the past 6,000 miles then will live on in my '78 wrecker project later.

The 8.1L flywheel is one piece like a 7.4L but unique to the 8.1L due to balancing. To use the 7.4L clutch I just had to remove a few dowel pins in the flywheel.

I just picked up the flywheel this morning from be resurfaced.

[snj8198]

don't they look good when they come back from the machine shop?!

I didn't want to hi-jack JJ's thread so i'll post here. I have all of my receipts and info at home and wont get back there til the weekend. What i can tell ya now is that i purchased my NV kit complete from Wes at Gear Tech HD.

www.geartechhd.com

http://www.geartechhd.com/gallery/di...?album=3&pos=8

The kit came to me complete with:

-New NV4500 with GM 10 spline input shaft, heavy duty main shaft that eliminated the 5th gear retention nut issue, GM 32 spline output shaft, custom Gear Tech HD engraved aluminum pto covers.

-AA aluminum bellhousing, pilot bushing, throw out bearing, and fork. this bell allowed me to use a mechanical clutch.

-empty/bare 205 case with round pattern, 32 spline input gear,

-ORD twin stick assembly complete with brackets, hardware, boots etc

-tranny mount, shifter stick, there was a stiffining bracket for the bellhousing, all grade 8 mounting hardware, and a few other small items i think im forgeting.

At the time of purchase 6 years ago or so i paid $2450 for the complete kit and about $200 shipping to my door. Wes broke the component costs down for me at the time of my purchase, that's why i know how much each component was when i posted in JJ's thread earlier.

Wes's company used to work with Stephen Watson at Off Road Design there in Colorado. Im unsure if they still do, but it's possible Steve maybe able to help you too.

If these prices are still current or even close to it, then i honestly believe this is the best NV4500/205 combo possible for the money. No adapters, no extra parts or weak coupler design, and it's only a couple inches longer than the stock 465/205 combo.

I'll look at my receipts for part numbers when i get home this weekend.

-steve

[tomtuna1978]

larry all your projects are amazing ....subscribed !

[DirtyLarry]

I appreciate the info Steve.

I agree 100% that is indeed the best and strongest method of doing a 4500/205. I have been looking for a 1985 or newer round adapter 205 for years to do exactly that and just can’t find one (without paying $1000 for it!), which is why I settled for the AA kit. It was my understanding the 4500’s tail shaft has to be shortened a ¼’ or so to mate to round 205, but that would be no biggie. I would gladly do that if I could just find one or empty case for that matter. If I could find a bare round adapter 205, I would keep the AA bell housing and tcase shifter bracket and call it a day. Heck, I have a hydraulic bellhousing for a NV4500 but it is for the internal slave/release bearing type which I am not fond of. Hell, I'd rather have a mechanical linkage than the internal slave.

As you mentioned, I really don’t like the idea using another coupler between the 4500 and 205 again either like the 465 and 205 had. I am not excited about the length of the AA kit either. Nor was I impressed with the folks at AA when I spoke with them on the phone. I ordered my kit through Summit..

I think I’ll give Geartech and Watson a call and see if they have anymore bare round 205 cases left. Is Geartech still around?? Their website looks like it hasn’t been updated in a few years.

[Musclerodz]

Originally Posted by DirtyLarry

I appreciate the info Steve.

I agree 100% that is indeed the best and strongest method of doing a 4500/205. I have been looking for a 1985 or newer round adapter 205 for years to do exactly that and just can’t find one (without paying $1000 for it!), which is why I settled for the AA kit. It was my understanding the 4500’s tail shaft has to be shortened a ¼’ or so to mate to round 205, but that would be no biggie. I would gladly do that if I could just find one or empty case for that matter. If I could find a bare round adapter 205, I would keep the AA bell housing and tcase shifter bracket and call it a day. Heck, I have a hydraulic bellhousing for a NV4500 but it is for the internal slave/release bearing type which I am not fond of. Hell, I'd rather have a mechanical linkage than the internal slave.

As you mentioned, I really don’t like the idea using another coupler between the 4500 and 205 again either like the 465 and 205 had. I am not excited about the length of the AA kit either. Nor was I impressed with the folks at AA when I spoke with them on the phone. I ordered my kit through Summit..

I think I’ll give Geartech and Watson a call and see if they have anymore bare round 205 cases left. Is Geartech still around?? Their website looks like it hasn’t been updated in a few years.

been there, done all this. the length issue is not in the AA adapter, it is in the difference in the 2 transmissions. the 4500 is just that much bigger. the other issue is that in the 4wd, the engine is set back further in the truck than the 2wd. I ended up moving the motor foward to clear the buddy buckets, and raising it 1" to clear front diff. A lifted truck would have been easier. I would suggest running the hydraulic slave setup, the factory retrun spring on the pedal is just too stiff if you plan on driving the truck much at all. drove great when done even with 4.11 gears. hell of a lot of work though

[DirtyLarry]

Originally Posted by Musclerodz

been there, done all this. the length issue is not in the AA adapter, it is in the difference in the 2 transmissions. the 4500 is just that much bigger.

Not really Mike….

The two parked next to each other looks as though the NV4500 may only be a 2 or 3 inches longer from the trans face to the end of the adapter. I can’t take an actual measurement of the two right now as I pulled the NV4500 apart to take a look at the tails shaft nut. From what I can tell by the pictures on line, the AA 205 adapter is going to add what looks to be 4 to 5 more inches behind the NV4500 adapter. If I had a round 205 to bolt right on to the NV4500 tail shaft housing the overall length doesn’t look like it would grow but 2 to 3 inches.

The engines in ’73 and newer GM 4x4’s do not sit any further back than their 2wd brothers. Prior to ’73…yes

I don’t have a problem with hydraulic but I would rather use an external slave cylinder over the newer internal slave/release bearing assemblies. The Centerforce pressure plate is very soft even with a mechanical linkage. In fact, the Centerforce clutch is no harder to step on than my ’01 Silverado with an 8.1L and ZF S6-650.



I’ll know for sure sometime today once the UPS man shows up with the AA kit.



Steve,

Funny thing, I am planning a rear disk swap too. What are you doing for a park brake? I don’t want to use Eldorado calipers!

[snj8198]

ya Wes doesn't keep his site cutting edge but he's still in business. Last time i chatted him was 4 or 5 weeks ago. Since ORD is closer to you check with Steve for a round pattern 205 case. ORD used to ship 8 bolt 205 cases out to Wes for filling and redrilling but i dont know if this is going on still. Last i heard due to lack of availability and shipping costs, new housings were being formed and drilled in the 6 bolt pattern.

check with these guys too
http://quad4x4.com/New%20Process%20N...fer%20Case.htm

been there, done all this. the length issue is not in the AA adapter, it is in the difference in the 2 transmissions. the 4500 is just that much bigger.

respectfully, without the trans in front of me i guess i forget exactly what the dimensions are but...

NV4500 specs
http://www.high-impact.net/transmiss...20Information:

MS465 specs
http://www.high-impact.net/transmiss...gear/sm465.htm

This weekend im planning to do a rear disc swap on my 14 bolt. While im under there i'll get some measurements for ya just to be sure. The ole memory just dont remember for sure.

-steve

[snj8198]

I'm currently using a line lock. I know it's not real safe but it will work for the time being. I just dont park it on any thing steep or in dangerous situations. Next summer i'll swap the 205 out put yoke to a flat flange and add an HAD disk park brake.

UPS should show up today with my DIY4X disk brake brackets

http://diy4x.com/cart/index.php?rout...&product_id=35

I hope to get this done over the weekend. If my local tractor and implement store cant build me hoses i'll have to order a set. Thinking about these

http://www.offroaddesign.com/catalog...brakelines.htm

come on UPS!

[DirtyLarry]

That is even more funny. Great minds think alike. My buddy and I were talking about going with a line lock but were worried about safety as well. Let me know how that works for you. I found a driveline mounted park brake that bolts onto the back of a NP205 but it is big money. The park brake on my truck now just won’t hold it worth the crap even with new cables and brake shoes. Looks like you have a fun weekend ahead of you too.

Yeah, we all love UPS! I really love them even more because I account manager for a truck manufacturer for after sales support which UPS account is my main account. UPS has 50,000 of our trucks in their fleet. So any time you order parts that are being delivered via UPS you are helping me buy parts for my truck! That is how the economy works! Go figure, the UPS truck that comes to my house is the competitors rig instead of ours.

[Critter]

Originally Posted by DirtyLarry

I found a driveline mounted park brake that bolts onto the back of a NP205 but it is big money.

Have you looked here?

I talked to them a few months ago. IIRC a disc for the 205 flange, this caliper, and a couple pieces of hardware were around $250. They said they didn't have a specific bracket to put it to a 205 but the particular salesman I spoke with said he personally put one on his lifted ford bronco with an np205. Just a couple pieces of strategically placed square tubing and angle iron for a bracket and it worked great.

[DirtyLarry]

Originally Posted by Critter

Have you looked here?

I talked to them a few months ago. IIRC a disc for the 205 flange, this caliper, and a couple pieces of hardware were around $250. They said they didn't have a specific bracket to put it to a 205 but the particular salesman I spoke with said he personally put one on his lifted ford bronco with an np205. Just a couple pieces of strategically placed square tubing and angle iron for a bracket and it worked great.

No, didn’t look at those guys and can’t remember where I saw the kit that was like $700. Thanks for the link… I’ll keep them in mind.

Man, it sounds like you guys have gotten great service out of those unitized bearings. I used to handle a bakery customer based in Ft. Wayne, Indiana that a fleet of bread vans with NV4500’s. They ended up swapping all them over to the external slave like the earlier NV4500s had. In fact, that is where I got the bell housing. They were going to throw it away so I talked them out of it and dropped it off at the UPS store on my way to the airport.

[snj8198]

I've been using a line lock as an ebrake for a year or so now. I haven't had any issues but i try not to put myself or the truck into situations that might question safety and i especially would NOT play with someone else's well being. What i do with me may be another story.

With that said i won't argue the safe or not debate as we both have probably read em before. I'm not using it to hang the truck off a rollback flying down a busy street or expecting it to hold on 50% grade. It does everything i want it to do. I plumbed mine into the front and it holds when i slow roll the 35's so that is probably the worst it will have to endure.

I never set up a cable ebrake when i did my 1 ton axle swap years ago. I got tired of the truck rolling away from when i stopped to pee on the back roads, and i liked keeping the truck running when hunting because it usually kept the deer's attention long enough for me to hop out and position where i wanted.

So any time you order parts that are being delivered via UPS you are helping me buy parts for my truck!

Well i hope that part never leaves ya stranded on the trail. DAMN that Steve!

Have you tried calling ORD or Gear Tech yet?