Just bought a 454! Build Suggestions?

[JacobSchni]

So i just bought a 454 iv for $300 minus carb and some of the pulley setup. Just waiting for the guy to pull it from his truck. Im trying to plan how i want to build this. I think im gonna bore it to a 468. dont really want to spend a fortune on it. Id like to try and stay in or under the 5 grand range for a total. What recommendations would you have for a build. Its gonna be a street build, i wanna run on pump gas. block casting #10069286, head casting #14092360. Not sure about the heads. hear that they aren't the best for power. wanna be making close to 600 hp/low 500 ft/lb (realistic for the price?)

truck its going in.

[JacobSchni]

i have a t400 and a stall. not sure what the stall is i cant remember, last owner put in.

[nvrenuf]

Are you also converting from sbc to bbc? If so I don't think that's a realistic number.

I think it's very do-able to get 600 hp for $5k but if your converting there will be a lot of extra parts that will eat in to that same budget. Things like headers (and exhaust mods), a big carb, adequate fuel pump (and plumbing mods), radiator, motor mounts, parts to finish the accessory brackets, etc.. will all kill you on unplanned expenses.

[JacobSchni]

Ya it is a sbc right now. Thought the bbc bolt right in, in regards to motor mount and such. It comes with header (don't now if they will be too small). How much more would you think it would be?

[nvrenuf]

I'd budget another $2000-$2500 and maybe even come in high. I think those heads are peanut ports which will not support that kind of power (read: $$ different heads $$). The real killer is the snowball effect where you start buying pretty parts or cool parts that evolve in to really cool parts.

I'm not saying it can't be done for $5k but to do it RIGHT with a dependable 600 hp combo, you're going to spend a lot.

I'd suggest sitting on the $5k and get the motor torn down and checked by a machine shop. Once they know what you have vs the parts you need, you can put together a realistic budget for that goal.

[nvrenuf]

Btw, that is a damn nice truck!

[68c10owner]

So you budgeted $5000 for the engine but you didnt account for the upgrades required for the HP goal. THe transmission is going to need some upgrades and will need a stall converter specificly picked for your set up. Reusing the one you have may work but could also be way too much. A 2500 stall behind a mild 350 could be close to 4000 stall with a 600hp bbc. Dont forget your transfer case. Im not a 4wd guy but I know there are some out there in the mid 80`s that would break pretty easy with stock 350`s if worked too hard.

Then you will need to upgrade the fuel system. 600hp is going to need soem fuel. I wouldnt run less than a 1/2 line with that much power. You dont want to starve it for fuel.

Then the axles. Sounds like you have a plan for those but you still got to budget for them. The ones you find may need a rebuild. Dont forget wheels as the 1 ton is going to have a different bolt pattern.

So your $5000 budget is looking pretty thin right now. Im a old school guy but even I can see the LS swap makes much more sense than trying to build a bbc these days. Look for a 6.0 or 6.2, install a cam, maybe some ported heads, get a tune and you are almost there.

If you want to go bbc still then your best bet is to do a 496 stroker. You can find a good deal on them. Id look for a small dome or even a flat top rotating assembly. Then find some 781 or 049 heads to work with. Put some 2.25/1.88 valves, bowl work, gasket match, may have to do some chamber unshrouding for the 2.25 valve but its worth it. For a camshaft I would use this,

http://www.claysmithcams.com/bbc-454...x-of-5700-rpm/

It`s proven to make strong torque in strokers and will work great in your build. Chris Straub designed them for Clay Smith. Google him is you dont know who he is.

Wont make your 600hp goal but should be damn close to 600ftlbs or torque and thats what you really need.

[Firebirdjones]

Have you checked with any high end machine shops yet? I'm talking not only a place known for quality work but also one that has an in house dyno. A shop like that should have a pretty good idea of certain combinations that work. If you approach them with your goals they should be able to tell you what it's going to take in both parts and money. That's probably the first step I would suggest.

I find myself that by the time I'm done at a quality shop, I've spent about $600-$700 on block work alone (clean, magnaflux, align hone, deck, bore and hone with torque plates)
Used cylinder heads I've never gotten out any cheaper than $800 but they usually run over $1,000. By the time they clean and magnaflux, mill (usually a clean up pass) new guides, new seats, and in most cases new valves are needed, machine heads for positive seals, new springs/retainers/keepers. Stuff adds up quick to do a set of heads properly so you don't have an oil sucker. Skimp anywhere on the valve guide and valve stem area and it won't matter how good the valve seals are, you'll have an oil burner, making everything a waste of time. Stay away from places that want to knurl guides and such.

Crank work is around $200, and reconditioning old rods I rarely do anymore, but in those instances, by the time I do ARP bolts (about $70 alone) and magnafluxing rods and resizing big ends I have about $200 tied up in 40 year old rods. Not my idea of cost productive. Then you pay $500 or more for a good set of forged pistons, then balance it all. You can have $1000 tied up in the rotating assembly pretty quick. Makes those stroker rotating assembly kits look much more appealing doesn't it
Keep in mind that even though most of those rotating assemblies claim to be balanced, I've never had one that didn't need more balancing. Most quality machine shops will tell you the same thing, and it pays to spin them up and check them.

All this work, and finding good quality work, sadly is what makes crate engines so appealing. But those of us wanting a specialty build, numbers matching etc...are forced to find the few good machine shops that are still around.

[ptc]

Im a BBC guy tried and true and would stay there any day than going to the LS route.

Had a 468 built for a boat that worked real well with just port matching work on a twin 660 carbed tunnel ram and iron 990 heads - was doing about 600 hp on pump gas flat tops, chevy forged rotating assembly.

Upgraded it to a stroker 496 now with the same top end, ported iron 990 heads with bigger carbs (twin 850DP), Crower complete rotating assembly and about 10.5:1 - 17cc dome pistons ans still running 91 octane and getting a bit over 700hp. all engine work came to about $3400 just 3 years ago. Prices are changing but I still think you'd be miles ahead with the BBC.

I have a set of 088 Rectangular port heads (off a 502) that will work for a Gen IV BBC. These are good iron heads, 118cc chambers and 2.18 / 1.88 stainless valves already double springed for a hydraulic roller cam. I have the mild cam and roller lifters too if you need them.

Building a 509 for my truck right now as we speak for some 700+ street/strip horsepower.

[Jake Wade]

I think you would be way ahead going with this guy:

http://www.vortecproperformance.com/...binations.html

Excellent reputation, top notch builds. Great price.

[68c10owner]

Originally Posted by ptc

Im a BBC guy tried and true and would stay there any day than going to the LS route.

Had a 468 built for a boat that worked real well with just port matching work on a twin 660 carbed tunnel ram and iron 990 heads - was doing about 600 hp on pump gas flat tops, chevy forged rotating assembly.

Upgraded it to a stroker 496 now with the same top end, ported iron 990 heads with bigger carbs (twin 850DP), Crower complete rotating assembly and about 10.5:1 - 17cc dome pistons ans still running 91 octane and getting a bit over 700hp. all engine work came to about $3400 just 3 years ago. Prices are changing but I still think you'd be miles ahead with the BBC.

I have a set of 088 Rectangular port heads (off a 502) that will work for a Gen IV BBC. These are good iron heads, 118cc chambers and 2.18 / 1.88 stainless valves already double springed for a hydraulic roller cam. I have the mild cam and roller lifters too if you need them.

Building a 509 for my truck right now as we speak for some 700+ street/strip horsepower.

Are these numbers from actual dyno runs or just guessing?

[ptc]

Originally Posted by 68c10owner

Are these numbers from actual dyno runs or just guessing?

HaHa... I dont run down dynos, I run down tracks.... anytime you care to line up then I GUESS we could find out.... Those are conservative numbers based on the computer build sheets less about 20%... so probably a little more than guessing....

On another note: why would anybody want peanut port or 049 or 071 heads on a BBC???? why not put a Ford DIESEL engine in it then? A BBC needs to BREATH... get the biggest you can if you are going to run IRON heads.... and if you are going to be serious about a build then get the Alum heads that are right for your build combination.

Ive got a complete GM HO top end setup from a GEN VI engine; 088 heads with new springs, stainless valves, mild hyd cam, hyd roller lifters, guide plates, pushrods, steely rocker arms all for $1100 + shipping. Will bolt right onto any Mark IV 454 block.

Just google "GM 502 HO specs" for all the cam info and all the parts.

http://www.chevrolet.com/performance...ck-502-ho.html

[JacobSchni]

Will the iv bolt up to the t400 or no.

[68c10owner]

Originally Posted by JacobSchni

Will the iv bolt up to the t400 or no.

All sbc and bbc engines have the same bell housing bolt pattern. Do you have much experience with performance engines?

[AZ-K2077]

I would do a 496 use factory oval 781 or 049 heads. With the right cam it can make a ton of power on pump gas. You are going to still most likely be over budget.

If you up the budget 600 plus is easy with a bbc. I have a 468 2 bolt block forged crank solid lifter cam with dart pro 1heads. It made just over 640hp with a 850. The compression was right at 11.1 to much for pump gas but its in my v-drive boat. But lots of good combos on the web to look at.

[JacobSchni]

I don't have much experience. And none of my family or friends can help due to lack of interest. I can vary with budget, but I'd like to stay close. I have a t400 and 205 with a (I think 3200 stall)

[68c10owner]

Originally Posted by JacobSchni

I don't have much experience. And none of my family or friends can help due to lack of interest. I can vary with budget, but I'd like to stay close. I have a t400 and 205 with a (I think 3200 stall)

Wasn't trying to be a jerk. You seemed pretty new and I just wanted to get a idea of your experience. I wouldn't shoot for 600 hp right out of the gate. But a strong torque combo and you will have a blast. Check into Mark Jones, VORTECPRO that Jake mentioned. I know of his from another forum and he knows his stuff. He even has a peanut port combo that runs strong.

[mud.man.rj]

Nice part of small to big block is most everything will still bolt up the same, engine will sit a bit taller, trans will bolt right up but the 3,200 stall will stall a bit higher around 3,400-3,500 which is great in a 2wd not a 4wd, moving a lot more weight and now with the big block will have a huge difference in torque so drop down to a 2,500 which will stall @ 2,700 perfect for the weight of the truck plus with the torque difference will have quite a bottom end advantage, but poor diffs won't last long. will have to baby them till you can upgrade, they are called projects for a reason right..one step at a time.

[JacobSchni]

Nit saying I need it over 600 just mid to hight 500 if possible and I have headers the guys giving me. But they seem kinda small for a rebuild

[JacobSchni]

Will do. Thanks

[mud.man.rj]

My last truck was an 81 1 ton with a 530hp 468 sm465/std trans w a 205 tcase. Ran 40" Nitto Mud grapplers with a 3:73 ratio. was just about perfect for a daily driver, any more would be getting to finnicky to drive and enjoy, used 781 large oval port heads, ported them and intake myself, pulled 6 grand easy but with the 4wd just found I didn't need the Rpm, the bottom end was just so great having all the torque, the big 40's felt more like 35's, would cook on command right off idle, so aim for torque, it is what moves you and the 496 would be beautiful, so much more to move the weight of the truck, should really enjoy it. I sure did.

[JacobSchni]

So with everyone suggesting a ls or 496. What would I be spending on either

[Firebirdjones]

Originally Posted by JacobSchni

So with everyone suggesting a ls or 496. What would I be spending on either

I touched on LS expenditures in an earlier post so I won't go into details, but I do them fairly often and to do one right you are going to be in it well over the cost of an engine build alone. Not to mention I wouldn't even look at any LS for a big truck that is less than a 5.7, and preferably a 6.0. Just the cost of everything will put you past a 454 rebuild and the 6.0 would still be stock and not make anywhere near the power you are looking for. The LS engine would then need to be opened up, heads, cam etc...and that's even more money.
Personally for your budget and what you want to do with the truck, I'd completely forget about any form of an LS swap just looking at it from a financial standpoint.
If you're still needing parts for your big block, namely a decent set of used heads, your swap meets may be your best bet. I doubt that any of the "pick-your-parts" yards are going to have anything old enough to consider.
Again, your best bet is to talk to a well known machine shop and get an idea of an engine package that will put out numbers you're happy with and do some number crunching.
Peanut port heads actually work very well, they have just been misunderstood by many. Lingenfelter proved years ago they were worthy heads on some of his 454 and 496 builds, making silly power, a real eye opener.
However keep in mind, any oval port head you do, if you want to upgrade the valve size (which most do) you are quickly going to get into $1,000 worth of parts and machine work on a set of 40+ year old heads. In my opinion it may not be worth the money with so many good aftermarket castings on the market that are reasonably priced. Stick with iron to keep costs down. There are new iron castings out there still offered. Check out Merlin, World Products, RHS, Dart. Shucks even RHS has some reasonable aluminum offerings as well as Top Line and some lesser known brands. You'll be money ahead and it makes your power goal much easier to obtain.
Again I can't stress enough, talk to a good machine shop that has a reputation for building quality power and ask them what they like to use and why. We've used Tony Bischoff at BES (one of the best in the country) as well as Koerner Racing Engines and Zimmerman Racing, they all have a little different theory on how they want to reach a power goal. Camshaft selection is just as, if not more important than cylinder heads.
I currently have my little DZ motor at Zimmermans working his magic. He just finished a Windsor build for a customer of mine, he does fantastic work. Koerner did the 454 in my 79 1 ton pickup I mentioned earlier, again top notch machine work and a whiz with camshaft selection using a lot of Howards knowledge on lobe design. You'll have to do your research to reach big power goals and do it reliably.

[pistonbroke800]

I built a 496 that I swapped in place of my 350 last winter and absolutely love it. Scat rotating assembly with 781 heads 2.19/1.88 valves and 2'' headers. My truck is an absolute animal now. With the bigger cube engine you can get away with a bigger cam and still have a very street friendly ride. 600hp can be made pretty easily with a 496. It wasn't cheap but I put a lot of fancy parts into the swap, im happy with every penny I spent.
Truck is a 2wd with a TH400 and a 12 bolt. 2500 stall and 3:73 gears.

[mud.man.rj]

Very good advice on here, another thought is a built 383, still have more cubic inchs, revs all day with way more torque and can have an easy reliable 500hp for cheaper than a big block, but all comes to choice. I myself love big blocks and the torque difference and think the 496 still makes the most sense and smiles all day every day.