Starter...again...still..

[GMCjunkie]

My truck still grindes whenn I try to start it. My amperage is effecient, my fly wheel looks fine, the starter is new and has no apparent cracks or damage. I have tried 1,2,3 and 4 shims, I have tried shimming only the outside with 1, 2 and 3 shims. It still grinds, the guy at Advance (not my usual choice for automotive advice) says I need a high torque starter. Gomer says Bubba can come tow it to Goobers shop and I can leave it for a few days and he can try to "figger it out". Thats NOT going to happen. Getting frustrated. The guys at the ol guys parts store say you cant get the brackets for the starters and that I have to fabricate one. I have done every thing within my limited power. What next?


Oh, took some pics of what I can see, dont know if it will help any.

Thanks!
junk

[Tim Christian]

Jodie, I had the same problem on my truck but it started like this with the mini high torque starters I then tried Advance auto starters NO LUCK Bought a new GM starter bolted right on no shims and has not give a bit of trouble. They are a little high in price but are they really if you take all the money and time you spent leading up to this point. Tim

[68gmsee]

Has it always done it from the time you bought the truck or did it start after a parts replacement? Also, did you replace the whole starter asm complete (recommended)?

I've had new defective starter asm's before. If you can't get a good one from one store try a different one that uses a different manufacturer.

Years ago I had the same problem and went to a salvage yard and took the flywheel/starter combo complete. Of course this was when old 350's were common.

[Heartbeat of America]

I have the same problem, and tried the same soultions as you with no sucess. LMC Trucks has the starter brace. When mine comes I'm gonna give it a try.

[GMCjunkie]

Tim, do you sell the starters? If not, where is the best place to get it? Whatcha mean by "pricey"? HOA, let me know when you get it and how it works.

Thanks!

[passthebuck]

My flexplate way eggshapped & would only grind if the motor stopped at certain points.

1) Is the grinding a result of it spinning & not engaging due to hitting the flexplate

OR

2) is the solenoid not swinging the drive all the way forward?

If its # 1, then shims, a new flexplate should fix it or a new bushing in the starter nose (they wear too & shimming will only push it farther away from the felxplate).

If it's # 2, then you could have a worn out solenoid, a worn out/sticky or a bad bushing in the drive.

It could also be a bad engaement fork. If it's very worn, it wont swing the drive far enough forward.

Lots to think about for sure. You may want to try the drive, bushing and solenoid fixes first as they are fairly cheap & easy. As long as you are there, put some new brushes in.

I was born under a bad sign when it came to starters, but now they dont mess with me...

Feel free pm or reply here with more questions GMCjunkie...

[Kokomoooo]

I had a simmular problem a while back. I kept adding shims thinking that the starter drive was too close. It turned out the opposite. After I added enough shims it actually would not touch it at all. It turned out that not all of the Chevy starters are the same offset. If you have the old starter, check the offset between the bolt holes and the bushing.

I don't know what engine you are running,my engine is a big block. I don't know how to tell you what to order to get the proper one, I just got lucky in that I happened to have one that fit.

[mr48chev]

A lot of these "rebuilders" machine or sand off the mounting surface of the starter to get a nice shiny surface an hence the need for shims. That throws everything out of kilter.
So far I'm not a fan of high torque" starters as I have seen guys on every board I'm on have more issues with them than factory style starters.

What you might want to do though is to get a new genuine GM starter endframe for your starter that is the correct one for the setup you have and swap the other pieces over to it. That would give you a better chance of getting the register between the starter drive and the flexplate.

[whitesswj]

Mine was grinding because the block was broken and was causing the starter to be crooked. You might look at this. Not that your block is broke, but maybe it's cracked where the outside bolt goes in to the block. If that's the case ask around. I didn't have to replace my block when I finally figured it out but cost about $200 for it to be recast. You can look at what had happen and the final product here.

Oh, BTW, I use a lifetime warranty, rebuild from AutoZone and I don't use a shim. All parts stores are alike now days, in my opinion, when it comes to their parts. Now their guys behind the counter are another story.

Past that all above advise is good.
Good Luck

[k5hart]

Originally Posted by whitesswj

Mine was grinding because the block was broken and was causing the starter to be crooked. You might look at this. Not that your block is broke, but maybe it's cracked where the outside bolt goes in to the block. If that's the case ask around. I didn't have to replace my block when I finally figured it out but cost about $200 for it to be recast. You can look at what had happen and the final product here.

I also had this problem with a motor I rebuilt but the bolt hole in the block was cracked not broken off. I changed starter after starter, shims, bracket, blah blah and nothing worked. As it got worse and worse I guess the crack got bigger and bigger and I finally noticed it one day when I had the bolts in the block without the starter. I forget what I was checking for but as I tightened the bolts the crack opened up. It was enough I think that the starter would move under the torque. I took the truck to an old welder in the country that worked around the farms. He had me jack the truck up on the side of his shop in a field, remove the header and starter, and leave it for a day. He ground the crack out and rewelded the block and I never had another problem. Really amazing what he did. Thought sure I was going to have to remove the engine.
The second time I had starter problems I had a flex plate for a one piece rear main 350 on a two piece engine. It looked like it should line up but I think the pitch of the teeth is off. That was a hard mistake!
As far as everything else. I agree some parts store noses are crap. There are also different noses as someone mentioned. I've never had to use more than two shims. I think when your have to stack them up it's a sign of bigger trouble. I also don't think the brackets are a fix just a support for a good working starter. They can be found in junk yards usually. If your engine isn't high compression than you shouldn't need a high torque starter.
Good luck with it. Keep posting what you find. I would really check for a crack and the correct nose first from what you've explained.

[Wrenchbender Ret]

Koko is right. The teeth are too far away. Take a big flat coarse file & go across the surface of the starter that contacts the engine. The holes get pulled out over time on the old houseings & the new ones arn't always true. I've fixed a lot of them this way.

[red71cheyenne]

I've had the same problem with different starters on the 71. Some would work, some would not. I just kept getting a different starter at Autozone til I got one with the cast iron nose on it, not the pot metal variety. After that, it starts great, no noise. Now I keep an old one around to have rebuilt that has that old nose cone on it so I don't have to keep searching.

[Hubscrub]

if or when you find a good one that fits and sound well keep it and have it rebuilt i always carry my starters and alternators to a local guy to be rebuilt usually cheaper and works great most of the time better than new. we have had to sand down the nose cone were it meets the block to make them quiet it all depend on where it is in relation to the flexplate.

[john]

Originally Posted by red71cheyenne

I've had the same problem with different starters on the 71. Some would work, some would not. I just kept getting a different starter at Autozone til I got one with the cast iron nose on it, not the pot metal variety. After that, it starts great, no noise. Now I keep an old one around to have rebuilt that has that old nose cone on it so I don't have to keep searching.

I agree on the cast iron nosecone. I asked the service manager at the dealer and he said he has never shimmed chevrolet cast noses. I got a rebuilt at NAPA 12 years ago with a cast chevy nose and it still works perfect. Hope you have better luck this time.

[463]

Jodie. would you have the part # for the starter that the body shop installed on the sub? just a thought that someone installed the wrong one. heres rock auto link :http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/x,ca...,parttype,4152

[GMCjunkie]

Originally Posted by 463

Jodie. would you have the part # for the starter that the body shop installed on the sub? just a thought that someone installed the wrong one. heres rock auto link :http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/x,ca...,parttype,4152

http://www.napaonline.com/Search/Det...+50030+2030016
Heres a link to the starter that I have on my truck now. Any comments are appreciated

[GMCjunkie]

Thanks everyone for your replies, 68gmsee, no, I have never had this problem. When I had it in the paint shop, they toldme it was grinding when they started it, so I had them change it out. When I got it home, it started half dozen times then started grinding, the housing was cracked, I got another one,this one hasntbeen cranked 6 times, and its grinding.

Passthebuck, it dosent seem to matter hwere it is stopped, it grindsevery time I try to start it. As far as the rest of your advice, I have no idea. The starter is new.

Kokomoooo, I have a 350 small block and I do not have the old starter.

Mr48chev. Im being told that more and more, I wouldnt know how to swap out the pieces, I really wouldnt mind just buying another new strater, I just want my truck to run.

whitesswj, good lord, I hope thats not the problem.

wrenchbender, I dont exactly understand how to do what youre suggesting.

red71cheyenne, Im getting that advice alot too, Ive tried every shim combo known to man (or girl ) Its not getting it, IM afraid to keep trying to start it for fear of messing up my fly wheel.

Yall are my heroes, Unless theres something else I can try myself, Ill prolly end up getting a new GM starter with a Cast nose.

Thanks so much everyone!

[CCCC]

There is some really good advice and insight above. I still can't tell what you mean by "grinding" (probably my fault), but have to assume that it is a mesh issue involving something in the gear drive or shaft, maybe the solenoid misfiring - just seems like something internal to the starter or a problem with the housing itself - like the nose.

Before you start chasing starters to find "one" that works, or spend a lot of $$ on a dealer item, try making your way through the stuff provided by passthebuck and wrenchbender and others above who are talking diagnosis and the nature of the nose, etc. I would almost bet that the cure is there.

Over more than 50 years of fooling with Chev/GMC engines I NEVER have used a shim in mounting a starter. And, do not remember anything other than a cast iron nose on any of them.

[biggestjohn]

Why are you using a Ford relay? I thought you only used those with a Mini-starter. If your using a standard Chevy starter, I'd get rid of the relay, connect the battery wire to the solenoid, connect the wire from the s terminal on the relay to the s terminal on the solenoid. Get rid of the jumper wire.
BTW: Chevy starters ground thru the mounting face on the engine block, make sure its clean with no paint on it.

I was looking at a Tuff Stuff mini-starter a little earlier, thier instructions don't show that jumper between the s terminal and the battery wire.

http://www.tuffstuffperformance.com/...2_Starters.pdf

[GMCjunkie]

Hubscrub, thanks, I have no idea how to tell where it is connecting to the fly wheel, and unfortunately, I dont know alot of people here in reguards to getting a good sound rebuilt starter.

[70Custom10Nut]

This is to all that are havibg issues. Don't trust the kid behind the counter. I went through this about ten years ago, with all the advise and replacing of "bad starters. I tried shimming and replaced two flywheels (flexplates). I can't remember how many starters I changed out before a guy asked if I had the right nosecone housing. It never dawned on me the the PO had the wrong starter on the truck. You must have the flat spot above the bendix opening to clear the transmission. If you don't, you can get it tight but never get the teeth to line up right. BTW, once I got the right nose cone, I haven't replaced one since.

[72lb4x4]

Not sure if anyone's mentioned it but, are the bolts starter bolts? They're somewhat different and are sort of knurled on the shaft by the heads.

Get a bracket for the back.

You can disconnect the big wire, and use a 10 or 12 wire to manually operate the solenoid while you watch from underneath. It may or may not tell you much.

[GMCjunkie]

John, the one I bought is from napa, not sure on the cast nose cone tho.

463, no I dont have it with me, I think its out in my shop, If I can locate it I will post the number.



70custom10nut, I think thats the direction Im headin in .

72lb4x4, Yes, they are the bolts that I got with the starter, trying to locate a bracket, no one around here seems to know how to go about getting one.

Thanks yall, supposed to be a 90% chance of rain tomorrow so prolly wont get out to work on my truck. Im thinking I may need to replace the starter with a GM cast nosed one. Hoping thats the fix. Yall are such a great source of information to me, THANKS again
junk

[GMCjunkie]

k5hart, Im thinking I will be removing the starter to get yet another new one, I will follow your advice and tighten the bolts back up with the starter out, never know...Also the last 3 lines of your reply hold alot of good points.

THANK YOU!
junk

[Wrenchbender Ret]

Here is the way I file down the mounting face.