C10CJ: A Pro-touring '71 Stepside on a No Limit Pro-C10 Chassis

[1971_c10]

Hi All,

I'm a little behind on getting a build thread going. SCOTI gave me a reminder today so here I go ...

I'm currently in the midst of doing some MAJOR surgery to my '71 C10 I've had since the mid 90's.

I'll start off with the plans I put together way back in March of this year.

The 2016 Build:

Chassis/Suspension:
No Limit Engineering Pro-C10 Chassis

Moser 9" with 3.70 gears on a Detroit Tru-Trac diff

Wilwood 14" 6 piston up front, 12.88" 4 piston out back

Ridetech HQ coil overs (may upgrade to shockwaves down the road)

Engine/Trans:
Going to bite the LS bullet and do it! (Eng was a SBC)

Keep my PATC Level 4 Raptor 700-R4 with 10.5" billet 3200 RPM converter

Wheels:
TBD!

Body Mods:
Raised bed floor with mini-tubs

Rear mount fuel tank

Firewall cleanup

No changes to existing color.

The attached image shows my desired changes to the stance using my sub-par photoshop skills. Top row is where I started, bottom row is where I am headed. We'll see how close I can get.

I'm pretty far into the build, so the next series of posts may seem like I'm making really fast progress, but not so much. I'll let you know when the posts catch up to current progress.

[1971_c10]

How about some video fun?

Here is a timelapse of the teardown. It goes from complete running truck, all the way through bare frame. In the midst, I did a ton of measurements in order to determine what I wanted in the way of suspension. I also simulated my intended ride height to make sure I really liked it, before I committed to the suspension mods.

I'll say, I didn't start off with No Limit right off the bat. They were in a group of about 9 options. I had several options that I mulled over from several of the respected guys in the market, including Porter Built, Roadster Shop, and Hotchkis. I looked at replacement suspensions and full chassis. I'll tell you all about that in a future post.

Chevy Teardown Timelapse - YouTube

[smbrouss70]

I'm in for the ride. That No Limit chassis is in my list of possibilities for my SWB also.

[Advanced Design]

Cool project. I am tagging along.

[darkhorse970]

I'm in

[SCOTI]

In & watching....

[1971_c10]

I figure I’d start of with how I wound up at the No Limit Pro-C10 chassis. It was quite a journey.

It started off with tons of internet trolling through the build forums looking at what various people had learned through their process and also reading the make it handle threads that Rob has in several places. So in keeping with the theme and maybe helping others in their pursuit of upgrades, I give you my trials and tribulations.

My goals for suspension upgrades were basically improve handling and ride a ton with no strong desire to lay frame on this build. So I focused mainly on products with coil over options, but I also considered if I could swap out to air ride one day.

So here are the options I wound up with:
-Hotchkis TVS
-Porter Built Level 2 (coil overs)(I also looked at bagged setups)
-No Limit Pro-C10 Chassis
-No Limit Wide Ride IFS + Fat Bar (coil overs) (BTW, the No Limit trailing arm kit wasn’t out yet)
-Roadster Shop Revo Front and Rear Bolt in kits (coil overs)
-Roadster Shop Fast Track Chassis
-Roadster Shop Revo Chassis

Let me say, all those options are top notch. It was hard deciding, but a few things helped narrow down the list even further. First, I did not want to perform any serious body mods. I wanted to keep the body as stock looking as I can (but not resto stock, i.e. proper trim, paint colors, etc.). This eliminated the Roadster Shop Fast Track since that chassis requires something like slosh tubs up front, so now you loose your factory hood hinge and need a cowl mount which easily added over $1k in body work I didn’t want to do, not to mention you need a pretty healthy trans tunnel and I wanted to keep the low hump tunnel if I could.

Then, I made a video, which I’ll share below, that shows just how flimsy the stock frame can be if nothing is added to stiffen it up. Once I started getting all the costs added up (keeping in mind most of the chassis options include a rear axle housing, so I including rear axle upgrades in all options that weren’t full chassis) a full chassis was not much more when you consider it is a fully boxed frame with a huge center cross-member. So when you put it all into perspective, the full chassis came out the better overall value (yes, it cost more). And you see this value perspective with aftermarket companies that used to not make chassis replacements starting to make chassis replacements.

And as many of you know, you can put all the fancy suspension on you want, but if the chassis just twists away, then that fancy suspension isn't going to give you the full benefit. So it was either look into boxing in the stock chassis, or look at aftermarket options. I went aftermarket simply because I don't have the shop resources to do the kind of needed chassis mods and keep the chassis square. Yeah, I got a welder and could weld on some plates, but if I distort the chassis too much, no alignment will ever help.

So now I’m down to No Limit Pro-C10 chassis and Roadster Shop Revo chassis. Both are very comparable to each other. It was a hard decision to make because both companies do excellent work and both were very helpful on the phone in the sales phase. In the end, it came down to the No Limit chassis was slightly more aligned with where I wanted to take the truck, which is a fun cruiser that I can take to the local autocross/road coarse/drag strip on occasion and have some fun. Rob has a ton of experience in that realm and he frequents the forums quite a bit so that swayed me his direction, if not mainly because I can find setup advise fairly easily and know he puts all his track experience into his products.

With that, here is a mostly raw video of me just doing a simple test. Rob has actually started doing a similar test with a more objective result on various chassis he has round the shop. Check out their Facebook page for some of those videos.

C10 SWB Chassis Flex Test - YouTube

[1971_c10]

With the teardown complete, I had to do something with the old frame ...

[1971_c10]

Once I got the chassis on order, I then had to figure out what wheels I wanted and then decide, do I wait to get the truck back together and then order wheels or do I take a crap ton of measurements and order wheels off measurements and calculations? Well, I went the measurement route. It was painful, but worked out in the end. I did tons of body simulations using my old wheels (which won't fit on the new chassis) to get the wheel set in the wheel well and then I back calculated the backspace I would need based on the new track widths of the Pro-C10 which are different from the stock C10.

And yes, that is my front clip setup in my house. I put the clip at my estimated ride height, squared it up, then set tires in, looked at it, moved them, looked again, repeat until happy.

[Advanced Design]

Very good explanation on lead times. A build really is managing a project. What are the graphs on your spreadsheet?

Impressive chassis! Did you go with a powder coat option? Those are good looking wheels.

[1971_c10]

Originally Posted by Advanced Design

Very good explanation on lead times. A build really is managing a project. What are the graphs on your spreadsheet?

Impressive chassis! Did you go with a powder coat option? Those are good looking wheels.

Thanks!

The graph is a plot of the gear ratios of the transmission I am running. The gear ratios are calculated all the way out (they include the rear axle ratio plus tire size), so the plot is vehicle speed vs engine RPM. The colored lines are each gear, and the black line is the trajectory the engine takes at a specified shift point (note, with an auto, you take the lower RPM stuff with a grain of salt due to the converter, but once above the stall speed, it's pretty accurate). This helps me understand that when I set a 6300 RPM shift point for say the drag strip, were will the engine bottom out on the next gear and will I be hitting the power curve of the engine in the sweet spot and will I dip under the converter stall speed for an auto. I also have a T56 (if I blow up the 700R4 I'm going T56) farther right that I didn't include since I was keeping the snapshot width to a min. It also helps to visualize how far apart the gears are just based on the space between the lines. This is useful since shops like Bowler offer a couple different gear ratio sets, so I can have a visual and numerical look at each gear set to make a more informed decision. I attached some close up shots to show you what I'm talking about. Also note, in the number shot, the line 'Distance per RPM' generally has different guidelines for different sports.

And yes, I went with the powder coat option through No Limit. I went with a color called "Black Magic" which I spotted on the chassis they sent to KC Paint shop for their SEMA builds and really liked it.

[Advanced Design]

Thanks, I appreciate the additional detail regarding the graphs. The calculations are a great way to compare the end result of all the variables. Did you build the calculations? Looks like Excel...

Bowler's shop is only 25 miles from me and I've been there a number of times.

[1971_c10]

Originally Posted by Advanced Design

Thanks, I appreciate the additional detail regarding the graphs. The calculations are a great way to compare the end result of all the variables. Did you build the calculations? Looks like Excel...

Bowler's shop is only 25 miles from me and I've been there a number of times.

No problem! I'm glad to help out in any way I can. And yes, I built the spreadsheet from scratch in you guessed it, excel. It is still a work in progress for the front axle, but the rear axle stuff is in pretty good shape. I still need to verify the coil over setup once I get the truck done. Might even pick up a set of scales for my shop since they've come down in price so much since I started working with corner scales.

That's cool you are so close to Bowler. I'm eyeballing one of their T56 with alternate gear ratios in the event my tanked out 700R4 isn't up to it. I would have swapped during this build, but I've had the 700R4 for awhile now, and no way I could sell it for even close to what it is worth with the ease of adapt for 4L60e or 6L80e these days. But, my 700R4 was purpose built for 750+ HP.

[rustylew]

I'm in.

[1971_c10]

Hey guys, sorry for a lack of updates recently. Been busy with the day job, and that doesn't let up until right before Christmas.

So I'm going to see if I can catch you guys up today, so please excuse the post blast.

Once I got the chassis, one of the first things I did was to level it and set the body on for a body fit check. This may seem like a lot of extra work, but I wanted to make sure the body didn't have any major issues once I went to set it on final, since it's a ton easier to do some mods, like on the cab, with the cab off and on a dolly.

Here's some pics showing the body fit. First on was the cab, then the bed, then the front clip and last the grill. I checked all the body lines and gaps during this process. I was impressed in that everything lined up very well with no shims. I had shims with the old chassis.

[1971_c10]

While I had the body on for a trial fit, I went ahead and did the mods to the inner fenders (wheel wells) on the front to clear the shock towers. The cuts may seem a little far back, but I wanted to have enough space to pull the coil overs out from the top.


I also added the holes for some vintage air AC which will be a nice upgrade from the heater only and make summer cruising much more enjoyable.

Just a note on the two circular vents for the vintage air AC. I did not use the supplied template to locate the holes. The supplied template puts the edge of the hole right on the radius of the gauge/glovebox feature, which would have resulted in a visible gap on top of the grommet around the vent. So you'd see if all the time. So I moved the hole down and out just enough to get on the flat part of the dash. This does put me very close to side of the cab on the backside of the dash making the supply ducts fit very tight, so I had to keep that in mind as I moved the holes.

[Advanced Design]

Well Chris, that is a very impressive LS rabbit hole you've gone down. Seems I remember Don Hardy race cars for V8 Vega kits back in the late 70's or early 80's.

Chassis and powertrain looks really good!

[mooseknuckles]

wow, I love that motor...and the chassis is pretty sweet too, and the wheels, and pretty much everything else. awesome build!

[Stickman]

Originally Posted by Advanced Design

Well Chris, that is a very impressive LS rabbit hole you've gone down. Seems I remember Don Hardy race cars for V8 Vega kits back in the late 70's or early 80's.

Chassis and powertrain looks really good!

That looks awesome, Don Hardy has been around a long time. They mention the above in there website bio. Again , that frame and engine look terrific.

[rustylew]

Did you go with the standard 61" rear axel and 61-1/2" up front??

[1971_c10]

Originally Posted by Advanced Design

Well Chris, that is a very impressive LS rabbit hole you've gone down. Seems I remember Don Hardy race cars for V8 Vega kits back in the late 70's or early 80's.

Chassis and powertrain looks really good!

Thanks! I may be down the rabbit hole, but not complaining.

And yep, Don Hardy has been around a while. I didn't realize he had a small hot rod shop making engines until recently.

Originally Posted by mooseknuckles

wow, I love that motor...and the chassis is pretty sweet too, and the wheels, and pretty much everything else. awesome build!

Thanks a bunch man!

Originally Posted by Stickman

That looks awesome, Don Hardy has been around a long time. They mention the above in there website bio. Again , that frame and engine look terrific.

Thanks! Yeah the 418 cu in is a popular combo. I said, if it's good enough for Rodger Brogdon it's good enough for me!

In all seriousness though, it's was crazy that I could get a built LS long block with the same specs as what I was about to buy for a SBC, for the same cost as just the parts for the SBC! I then went all bling crazy because I knew I would do it eventually so might as well do it now.

Originally Posted by rustylew

Did you go with the standard 61" rear axel and 61-1/2" up front??

I kept the standard 61" rear 61.5" front. It's a balancing act. For turning corners you want a wide track, but you also want a wide contact patch (i.e. tread section). Then you start pulling in look, with things like lip depth affecting the overall look and it makes a big difference. The 61" seemed like a good compromise. I had thought about going with a slightly more narrow rear, to get an even bigger lip, but with the slightly convex spokes, it gives a deeper lip with a deeper backspace, which is normally opposite (deeper backspace is usually shallower lip).

[1971_c10]

Ok, been traveling a week for work, so better squeeze some more updates in before I get sent out again.

With the cab on, I went ahead and put part of the front clip on. Just because I was curious more than anything. The front clip is pretty easy to put on and take off.

I also set an air cleaner on the throttle body to check hood clearance. Looks like I have plenty with this one. It has a "dropped" bottom, so I may also pickup a flat bottom and check that at some point too.

[Advanced Design]

The stance for the truck is spot on! As for headers, does Rob at No Limit have suggestions for what will fit? Anticipate others have built with this chassis and figured out what will work.

Regulator and fuel filter mounting. if it matches the theme, or look, you are going for, I like option one...unless it starts getting too crowded in that area with AC lines and heater hoses running in too. In that case, option two might be better...from a visual perspective.

[1971_c10]

Originally Posted by Advanced Design

The stance for the truck is spot on! As for headers, does Rob at No Limit have suggestions for what will fit? Anticipate others have built with this chassis and figured out what will work.

Regulator and fuel filter mounting. if it matches the theme, or look, you are going for, I like option one...unless it starts getting too crowded in that area with AC lines and heater hoses running in too. In that case, option two might be better...from a visual perspective.

Thanks! I'm super happy with the stance. On the headers, Rob has suggestions for the smaller tube stuff, like 1 3/4", but at the time didn't really have much in terms of the larger tube stuff.

On the regulator, I'm torn. The colors match the general theme in the engine bay, grey and black. However, like you mentioned, the fuel lines would cross the AC lines and I am not so sure I'd like that. Or I could add like 10 ft and go up and down and around, but I am balancing the performance aspect too, so not keen on adding a ton of extra fuel line. I also like the look of the smooth firewalls I've seen. I shouldn't have to adjust the regulator too often, but I don't want to make it impossible to get to. Ahh the trade-offs ... where's the magic 8 ball with car project decisions?

[ChuckDriver]

Awesome build!!