Radio/CD time: speaker locations, options?

[TomShilling]

I have an aftermarket radio/cassette, but it is not working, and there is a single speaker in a bait bucket in the recess behind the passenger side seat: what is easiest/best for a DIY guy? I have seen kick panel kits with a speaker that might work, but the wooden woofer boxes seem to big to fit back there. What works, what's a waste? AM/FM/CD and a decent (less than $200) system is fine for me... want to get it done before I replace the carpet/rubber mat and sill plates...
Thanks again!

[farside847]

You could make a box pretty cheap with MDF board. I was kicking around the idea
of making a box for under a bench seat. There is no pre-made unit out there, that
I know of anyway. I did some measurements and a custom made box could hold
1.15cuft of air space. Enough room for 4 8" woofers and two tweeters pointing out.

But Im not a pro cabinet maker by any means so I never did it. Just dream'n

[Alexis]

You know what I thought would be cool, putting a 6x9 in the back section of the cab, between the rear window and the the back end of the door. I thought it would look real smooth to drop a 6x9 there. Would take some work to make it flush but IMO it would be different and right in your ear where it should be.

[farside847]

Originally Posted by Alexis

You know what I thought would be cool, putting a 6x9 in the back section of the cab, between the rear window and the the back end of the door. I thought it would look real smooth to drop a 6x9 there. Would take some work to make it flush but IMO it would be different and right in your ear where it should be.

That would be cool. But I think my gas tank filler would get in the way... Wait a sec, you meant higher up next to the window? Hmmmmm.

[shifty]

If you can answer a few questions for me, I'd like to help.

1) What is your budget? IOW (in other words), what is the maximum amount of money you can possibly spend on this?

2) What kind of music do you listen to more than anything? Pop? Hard Rock? Country? Gospel? Electronic music? R & B? Maybe if you name your favorite three bands, this will help.

3) Is the non-working stereo a "shaft-style" radio (two big knobs) or did someone cut out the stock hole to be a big rectangle in the dash?

4) Do you plan on adding amplifiers and all that stuff, or do you just want a nice stereo and four speakers?

5) How much do you know about car stereo wiring? Did you install your current stereo that is non-operational?

6) What do you want for options with your stereo? IOW, what formats of music do you want to play? 8-track? Cassette? CD? Minidisc? Are you interested in paying $10/months for satellite radio?

7) How handy are you with woodworking? If someone gave you specific plans to make a wooden box out of particle board (MDF), do you think you could do it without too many problems?

8) Do you have bucket seats or a bench seat?

9) Do you have a gas tank behind your seat or do you use a fuel cell instead?

If you can answer these things for me, I can get a better feel for what "you" need, instead of just throwing idea after idea at you.

[TomShilling]

1. Budget $200 for unit, another $100 for speakers.
2. "Music" favorites: Sports talk, C&W, Christian contemporary.
3. Non working radio is 2-shaft in the original hole...I got the OEM AM radio, too, but don't want to install it. No cuts to the factory hole.
4. I was thinking 2 speakers would be sufficient, no need for 4.
5. I have installed basic radios in 3 other vehicles, but have no desire for anything complicated or requiring engineering degrees. i would prefer a manual, non-digital shaft-turning radio that played CDs!
6. Only AM/Fm and CD. No satellites, no computer I-pod stuff.
7. Fairly handy with wood, could make a box no problem...but I was thinking of something simple (read fast, non-laborious, non-expensive!)
8. Bench seat
9. Tank behind the seat.
Thanks for offering your suggestions!

[Alexis]

if your good with wood and you don't have a floor shift just drop a box in the middle of the floor against the fire wall like a center console with one speaker facing you and the other facing the passenger. I've done this in alot of gangter old school cars. It's cheap and work wells especially if it's sealed and you got a good set of 6x9's.

[farside847]

Originally Posted by Alexis

if your good with wood and you don't have a floor shift just drop a box in the middle of the floor against the fire wall like a center console with one speaker facing you and the other facing the passenger. I've done this in alot of gangter old school cars. It's cheap and work wells especially if it's sealed and you got a good set of 6x9's.

Wouldnt this be right up against the header vent?

[Alexis]

Originally Posted by farside847

Wouldnt this be right up against the header vent?

That just shows how long I've been without my britney.

You can still block it......or make something to route it to the sides. Or you can push the box forward and make the speaker sit like the roof of a house. /\

There are alot of configuration you can make the box into though.

[shifty]

Do you have a floor shift? (Edit: I see Alex just asked. )

[tom hand]

I will be flamed for this suggestion but the cheapest way to get good sound in these trucks is to put 6x9's in the doors....it never bothers me to cut the doors because the would be so easy to fix if you ever wanted to go back

[Alexis]

tom hand , that is an option but not a good way of getting good sound. Since the speaker sits flat and facing each other and not in the direction of the driver or passenger. Also sound can be blocked by someone feet. Reason why those with custom kickpanel have the speakers sitting at a angle. You want to be able to direct the sound.

[70 shorty]

You've got a problem if you want play CD's in the dash. The factory holes wont' accomodate a CD player, they're not wide enough. That's why you see a lot of dashes cut to fit a CD player. You could go to someone like Custom Autosound and get a shaft style stereo that controls a CD changer. this I beleive though would blow your budget away. I've got a Kenwood Casette deck in mine with 2 6x9's, one behind the seat on the passenger side, and one on the floor next to the shifter. The sound quality is pretty much non existant, but at least I have something. I don't want to cut the doors for 6x9's and I don't want to cut the dash for a CD player.

[shifty]

Okay, you're giving conflicting desires here

Non-digital radios are hard to come by, but they DO exist! Audiovox has a sub-line called "Rampage" which actually makes shaft-style tape players with the familiar scrolling knob we all know. They don't put out much power, but ... I mean, if you want non-digital, that's kinda what you get.

The radio is $30 @ buy.com

Here is a link:
http://www.buy.com/retail/product.as...ec&dcaid=15890

If you get that, you're way under budget on the radio and can blow lots of money on the speakers. But I can't vouch for the quality of that there radio.

[shifty]

wow. i just destroyed a whole post talking about how you could also go to buy.com and get a 10-CD changer with an FM modulator from Aduiovox/Rampage from for $129 and possibly be on your way to having tape, CD and all kinds of other stuff. I hit the damned "Escape" key and it wiped out my post.

Since I lost all of that, I want to share three things:

1) I don't condone the use of potentially crappy analog equipment. I cannot possibly tell you that Audiovox/Rampage makes a quality product (that radio has a frequency range of 50Hz - 10,000Hz...that's like less than half of the audible spectrum...that's no treble and no bass!). I can't condone using the Kenwood clones or refurbished radios that Custom Autosound sells. I also don't like the idea of cutting a dash open to get a good quality sound...because there is not a shaft radio on the market that offers good quality sound.
2) I'm sickened and disheartened at the lack of products for people who don't want to hack up their custom, classic or hot rod.
3) I just typed this up and sent it out to several radio manufcaturers including Dual Audio, Kenwood, Pioneer, JVC, Jensen/Audiovox, Blaupunkt and a few others in hopes that I actually get a response from someone:

Hello,

I want to write and express my concern about an entire niche market that nobody else seems to be tapping into: Classic car enthusiasts.

Before my current career in digital television conditional access systems, I held a job working as a professional stereo install guy. Ever since, I've been an avid audio enthusiast. My two main hobbies are classic car restoration and mobile audio innovation.

Recently, I purchased a 1968 Chevy C-10 pickup and I started talking to a community of thousands of other people just like me. In the weeks I've been hanging around and learning, I have been looking back over years and years of posts of people saying the same thing over and over again with no good answer...

"What the heck can I do for a modern radio in my classic shaft-style opening?!"
"Nobody has a shaft style radio anymore with any features."
"The only one on the market has only 7w x 2 for power!"
"Nothing has CD changer controls!"
"Will I ever have satellite radio in my dash without reaching to the glovebox or drilling holes in the metal?"
"Man, I can't cut my dash, this car is completely stock and worth a fortune to collectors...what do I do?!!"
"I guess I'm stuck listening to the engine..."

After a week of research online, I've found two possible ways to have CD changer with a shaft-style radio and CD changer controls - you either use a refurb'd or cloned Kenwood unit from Custom AutoSound ( www.custom-autosound.com ) or you go to Buy.com and buy Audiovox's "Rampage" line, where you get a 15w non-digital receiver (w/manual knobs and a genuine dial and needle!) and their matching 10-disc changer with FM modulator. Oh - and forget about frequency response - it's rated for 50 Hz to 10,000 Hz. There goes the bass and treble. And - can you imagine installing a PAC speaker-to-line-level converter to run to an amp with a frequency range like that? Pfft, whatever.

As an audio enthusiast, I'm disgusted and disheartened to see this. I see that companies like Dual Audio has taken the only shaft radio in the product line and done away with it - and it was the only thing on the market that really gave line-level RCA capabilities. I just don't understand how a innovative companies like yours can't be supply a product to a niche market like this. It seems like such a waste. In the digital world of today, how can manufacturers be so closed minded about applications only a couple of decades old?

Truckin' magazine, Hot Rod magazine, Classic Truck builder and any of the other magazines that do product reviews for classics would EAT UP a chance to be the first to demo a shaft-style radio solution for older vehicles. Just creating such a product and offering a demo or spec sheet on it to them with some stock photography would generate enough interest that, when advertised, you're bound to at least break even on your R&D and production costs.

You can't tell me that, with current technology, it's not possible to stuff all of these features into a single-DIN shaft-style faced radio. It should be quite easy to give any of your current product line a face lift and push it out within a month or two.

Thanks for reading my concerns. I hope this letter has helped you recognize the demand for such a product and already has something in the works, please let me know. I would love to be the bearer of wonderful and exclusive news to a community of thousands with the same dilemma.

Cheers.

[pritch]

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the satellite systems. You could have a stock AM/FM radio and use the system that is tranferable from car to home. This is a small unit that can go about anywhere, and it transmits a signal to your FM reciever. I know that don't help with speaker locations, but you will have that problem no matter which way you go. But with programming on XM or Sirrius can't be beat. Everything you could want, everywhere you go. I'm a beleiver. WHAT! You pay for radio? Why not, I pay for TV, and if free radio didn't suck, then that would be different.

[shifty]

Just FYI, XM just upped their monthly payment to $13 a month from $10. I sent a letter to complain. I Love their service, but won't use it if they want to up the rate by almost 33%. I only listen to stations 65, 80, 81, 82 and all of the indie rock and funk/soul stations. Less than 10 stations for $13/month? Nah.

It's totally possible to install any myriad of devices into the truck, but ... at such a low cost, it's not very easy. Then you hafta look at monthly costs also.

I would coax someone to use satellite radio versus a CD and tape player any day. The quality and variety of music and lack of real commercials makes it as good as having a jukebox of every CD in your favorite type of music constantly available (on "shuffle") all day long - and you can pick up the same radio stations whether you're in Hawaii or Saskatchewan.

Personally, I'm probably going to go with a factory radio delete panel in my truck or something else custom to cover the hole. I'm going to do one of three things:
1) Use a factory radio delete panel and build a custom center console and install bucket seats
2) Use a factory radio delete panel, install a CD changer in the truck and put the control panel in the ashtray
3) Use a factory radio delete panel and install a custom headliner with a radio pocket up above
4) Use a factory radio delete panel and mount a stereo in a custom fabricated "stock" looking enclosure under the dash or maybe swap out my heater controls unit for a radio (not sure about the fit on that one).

For $200 + $100, that's not really possible.

[pritch]

I just have a very basic Cheapest-I-Could-Find-That-Day CD AM FM right now, and it is mounted in the glove box. Not very user friendly, but very temporary. I am leaning toward one of those 10 or 12 CD changers with the FM modulator for Sirrius. With a Panel, I have lots of options for where to put it. I am going to install a dummy stock AM radio in the dash just to fill the hole. I don't know how many watts I'll go yet. I want loud enough, but not a thumper. I listen to Blues almost exclusivly, be it rockin' or country blues.

[Gary Lee]

Now would this work? I have been thinking... ut oh, sounds like trouble...

But seriously... since bass in non directional... and highs and midrange bounces so well (can anyone say bose?) what would be wrong with building a trapezoidal or rhombus shaped box for the speakers that you fasten to the top part of the bench seat with zip strips or even hose clamps, so that the speakers shoot straight up or at angle a lil forward or rear towards the back glass?

It seems there isn't much room, but if the speaker were on an angled plane pointed forward or rear, it wouldn't take up so much space and should fit... I mean with 4x8, 6x9, or 5 1/4 a 45 degree angle would take out alot of depth...

I realize that tweeters/highs attenuate rapidly, bass doesn't and midrange will bounce fairly well... glass should be a great reflector as its a crystaline structure, so minimal attenuation... or if you could get the angles right you could set 4- 5 1/4 inchers behind the left and right ear of the driver and passenger spots and have stellar sound...

I am crazy or am I missing something here?

Just random thoughts from a scattered brain....

[Alexis]

hey farside this is a little off topic......actually it is off topic. but I got the same keychain in your avatar.

[shifty]

In all seriousness, it's all about the quality of the signal and the quality of your amplifier versus the amount of power. Especially for blues, bluegrass and jazz; those genres of music typically have a lot of lower-end sounds that will just mudd together if you overload your stuff with power.

I would say a general dummy-rule of thumb is this:
If you're going to use front and rear mid- and high-range speakers, try to keep your amp's wattage to the front speakers at 1½ times to twice the power of your rear speakers (and adjust from there). Any subwoofer within 8"-12" can be adequately driven with a 100w-200w quality amplifier. a Nice 150w-200w 4-channel amplifier is more than enough for 4 speakers (2 front, 2 rear) or 100w 2-channel amp is more than enough for a set of components in the front kick panels of your truck

Most modern quality amplifiers have built-in crossovers on them into them to ensure your subwoofer only gets bass notes and your mids and highs only get their respective notes. It's not cost or space effective to buy an amplifier without them these days - making sure you use a crossover of some sort is a sure way to keep from destroying your speakers with notes they aren't manufactured to produce.

Always run dedicate power lines to your subwoofers - use a high gauge wire - 10 gauge is sufficient per amplifier. Always run the power wires to your amps directly from the battery and always, always put a fuse block or breaker block on the power line within 18" of the battery for safety purposes. Oh - and use heavy enough wire, but you don't hafta get all nutso like I did in my '03 Sierra (see : http://www.shifty.org/pics/truck/ste...l/IMG_0982.jpg )

Never run your speaker wires or RCA cables with your power wires. This introduces line noise.

For more info on the setup in that picture I just linked, it was in a Sierre 4-door ext cab SLE. I had (1) 500W x 1 channel amp for my subwoofer (which I'm selling, actually) and a 300W x 4 amp for my mids and highs. I was pushing 150W x 2 to the front 6½" and 1" tweeter components, 150W x 2 (with it faded to the front and gain all the way down) to the rear 4"x6" plates.

Kicked like a mule. Sounded like a beauty.

Gary - you've got a good idea, but is it feasible to do that with the amount of space? I keep my seat all the way against the fuel tank and I barely have enough leg room.

[Alexis]

nice setup shorty, thats the way I use to do it on chevy trucks. When I had to get it done in a hour I just screwed the amps in. If I had time I used rivits. What did you use?

[muddpile]

Unfortunately, I think Custom Autosound will be the only option as far as looking stock. Lots of people just bite the bullet and cut the dash, or go for the stock look and get the CAS package. I'd love to see some higher quality stuff, but I think I'll likely end up doing the CAS USA-6 AM/FM radio 10 disc changer combo, with a 4 channel amp running a pair of components and a pair of 8" subs under the seat. It may not be big, but it should be all I need to be reasonably happy. Space is one big limiting factor in these old trucks, especially when the tank is left in the cab.

[Gary Lee]

Originally Posted by shifty

Gary - you've got a good idea, but is it feasible to do that with the amount of space? I keep my seat all the way against the fuel tank and I barely have enough leg room.

Being 5'6" I guess I am at the other extreme of bench seat placement... so it shoulf fit in my case... I was wondering why no one else seemed to think of it...

[shifty]

I used self-tappers. I chalk-lined the rear cab wall, then had my dad (he likes helping with this kind of thing) hold the amps up while I marked the holes. Drilled a pilot hole to make sure the screws went where I wanted. Yeah, yeah, i know...why use pilot hole for self-tapping screws?

I went to the hardware store and grabbed some robber grommets to go between the amps and the cab wall to prevent vibration of metal on metal. The back seat fit over the amps nicely, but I had to remove the sound deadening pad from thestock wiring bundle and down. There was a decent "vent" created by the seat so the amps would never overheat, even in the dead of summer.

I used permatex on the screws to seal the hole and help prevent corrosion.

The "PG" unit you see on the right (black box) is the Phoenix Gold "PowerGrid" - it's basically a gigantic capacitor.