Locating Idler Arm

[Dene Risden]

Hello,
I put a complete crossmember out of an 84 1/2 ton in my 63 GMC shortbed.
I have rebuilt/replaced all pieces with new and have everything installed & hooked up EXCEPT the Idler arm....
I do not have access to the donor truck to take measurements for installation location, drilling new holes....
I don't want to screw this up, can anyone tell me the best way to determine where to drill the new mounting holes?
Any help would be greatly appreciated..... thanks..... Dene

[63sbssbbw]

I took my whole xm out of a '75,but should be the same,
I also didn't have the donor truck present for the swap.
My goal before drilling was to ensure that the center link was parallel with the xm (looking from above)and level (looking from the front).
The arm is positioned toward the rear (as opposed to the front like your 63).
The lower hole will be really close to the lower flange,but there's room.
Every pic I've seen of this puts it there,..not done yet so no real proof that it's the RIGHT spot.
I'm sure road worthy examples will chime in.
T

[Dene Risden]

Thank you for the info 63sbssbbw,
The more info the better.... Dene

[poorboy]

Here's a pic of the one I put on my 63 project a few years ago. I bolted everything up and put a level on the centerlink to make to it was level. I used a floor jack to hold it in place while I measured the distance from the centerlink to the cross member where the tie rods bolt. Once that distance was the same on both sides I drilled the holes.

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[Dene Risden]

Thank you Poorboy,
I will give it a shot tomorrow after work.....
Dene

[luvbowties]

Hey Dene, I think when u achieve the 2 'parallels' suggested by "63sbssbbw", you will be good to go. Any other logical measurement-verifications should prove this position true[enough, anyway!].

If working by yourself, clamping the idler arm bracket to the frame temporarily, using welder's vise grips, should prove quite helpful.
And when satisfied with positioning of the idler-bracket, using transfer punches (another "best" investment at $10 from Har. Frt.>> http://www.harborfreight.com/28-piec...-set-3577.html <<) ensures nice center-punches for accurate drilling.

First couple of these jobs, we labored unnecessarily with more msmts.--then realized the 2 eyeballed-accurate, parallel alignments were all that was needed. We like to have engine in place when we do the install--gives another reference point if u wanna verify drag link being parallel with oil pan bottom; but not necessarily do we have weight of vehicle on the tires.
When idler bracket is bolted on, turn steering thru its entire range to ensure no touching or binding.

Enjoy doing this project--then keep on enjoying its fruits from now on!
Sam

[BRASSHEAD]

I did not change the location of the idler arm on my 66 when I done a crossmember conversion. Mine is out of an 86 half ton. One problem I have is the wheels turn more one direction, other tahn that it drive fine. Would the idler arm location cause my issue?

[luvbowties]

Originally Posted by BRASSHEAD

I did not change the location of the idler arm on my 66 when I done a crossmember conversion. Mine is out of an 86 half ton. One problem I have is the wheels turn more one direction, other tahn that it drive fine. Would the idler arm location cause my issue?

Often during these swaps, your issue arises. To eliminate it, simply lengthen the tie rod end on one side and shorten it on the other--just by turning tie rod adjusting sleeve. The direction it turns too short, that tie rod end should be lengthened--then shorten the other side. Playing with it, you can get it turning the same amount in each direction!

To eliminate trial-and-error, turn st. wheel all the way from its leftmost position to its rightmost position, accurately counting the number of turns(Picture a clock, as it will have a fraction of a turn on its last one; count the fraction as minutes on the clock-face).
Now turn it to its center location. Use masking tape and securely tape the st. wheel to the mast jacket on the st. column so that the st. wheel cannot turn. Now, adjust your tie rod ends until you get both wheels pointing straight ahead.

One last maneuver: adjust each tie rod end such that front of each tire moves 1/16" toward the center. These 2 sixteenths inch movements give you a total of 2 sixteenths(or 1/8) inch toe-in--which should be proper toe-in for correct alignment.
Have fun and enjoy this more-nearly-correct geometry that you had access to all this time--sorry we didn't meet earlier!
Sam

[63sbssbbw]

Great points Sam.
Brasshead did not mention that he was (or wasn't) running the PS box from the '86.
Once the conversion plates are in,this will offset the box (and everything else) 1/2 inch(or 3/4?) to the drivers side.I don't recall any fixes for this,just something we have to live with.
LOL I park a mile from anyone else at the mall anyway
Trent

[Dene Risden]

Thank you all for your wealth of knowledge and advise...
Minor detail for me, I will know need to install my steering column in order to make this happen!
I will keep you all posted, headed for the garage to install my new column....
Dene

[62chevy302]

Originally Posted by 63sbssbbw

Great points Sam.
Brasshead did not mention that he was (or wasn't) running the PS box from the '86.
Once the conversion plates are in,this will offset the box (and everything else) 1/2 inch(or 3/4?) to the drivers side.I don't recall any fixes for this,just something we have to live with.
LOL I park a mile from anyone else at the mall anyway
Trent

Is this better or worse with some plates? im wondering if there is anything around this? maybe a spacer on the idler arm? I guess then the centerlink would me too short?

[luvbowties]

Originally Posted by 62chevy302

Is this better or worse with some plates? im wondering if there is anything around this? maybe a spacer on the idler arm? I guess then the centerlink would me too short?

Hey 62chevy, the mere existence of fixed-dimension geometric design renders very little in the way of avoiding this "shorter turn syndrome". However, if somebody really wants to solve that [livable] problem, he can do what I did on my last '66 I put ps on.

First, it really matters not which newer year box u use--all produce quite identical interference spacing. So, to keep the full turning ability, I modified my frame where the box bolts on, keeping original drag link, tie rods, etc. [[A good gauge for the amount of spacing/interference is the thickness of an old Ford pickup lug nut--the one used for so many years & having a 1/2-inch threaded hole. Using 1 of them on each of 3 bolts will space a ps box away from the '66 frame perfectly!]] Anyway, I started with a LOT OF HEAT so as to make as much of the frame as possible into a modifiable state. Use of a solid round bar stock, about the same diameter as the bulge on the newer ps box works well to help 'form' the old frame when hit with a huge hammer.

Took several heatings and massages to create the relief needed. Next comes welding up of the unneeded holes--actually would've been better to have welded them up before the massaging! After holes were filled and ground, we determined where to drill the new holes. No shame in this next step, but we had to shim a couple of holes, as massaging was a bit too much!
When we finished grinding & cleaning up and painting, the install looked as pretty as an original.

Now! There is 1 drawback in what I did. I used the original centerlink and other front end parts--and they are NOT as beefy as the linkage I stole the ps box from. But I ended up with the same turning radius as I started with. Only YOU can decide which tradeoff you prefer.

Knowing you probably wonder if I'd do my next one this way OR use spacers with the newer box and wed the newer linkages and bl-jts and t-r-ends and idler arm. Well, I'd have to admit this one handles better than any one I've ever driven--cornering, swaying, leaning, driving straight down the road with no hands on the st. wheel, drifting, and maybe any other parameter you may suggest. It's close to PERFECT.

But! The small loss of turning radius seems to me a tiny price to pay to gain the upgraded front-end components. Once you "split the difference" between left-turn and right-turn, I'd probably vote for the beefier suspension. After driving the upgraded[yet smaller turn-radius]truck a few days, you quickly become accustomed to its limitations and compensate without thinking. PLUS, it is actually easier to use the spacer method along with the beefier components when adding the ps.

I see advantages in both. And my real preference would be...........to have 2 trucks, 1 done each way!
sam

[63sbssbbw]

The plates I'm using have been available forever (the brand name eludes me at the moment),and CaptainFab also has a great kit available.
I suspect both will bring the box out 3/4"(1/2" spacer and 1/4" plate).
This space is to accommodate the bulge on the frame side of the box( the 73-87 frames have a divot pressed into the frame rail allowing the box to bolt solidly to the frame).
Both kits also have the lower mounting stud that hangs below the lower flange as the 73-87 frames are taller than the 63-66's in the ps box area.
I see you're working on a '62...The 60-62 frames are a little different and not sure if a full xm swap is the best way to go ,,but either way CaptainFab has a 60-62 specific PS conversion kit that works for you.
hope this helps
T

[BRASSHEAD]

I am running a power steering box from a 76 it was on the truck when I bought it back in high school. It does have a spacer plate on the frame. I have been looking at the steering boxes from CPP they seem pretty nice. Always before it was about the look and going fast, but last year I got to ride with Stacey Tucker from Detroit Speed in her 69 Camaro and all I can say is WOW!!! That thing can turn on a dime and it is fast, what a ride. So now I'm looking at swaybars, gearboxes,brakes that autocross stuff will get in your blood.

[62chevy302]

Originally Posted by 63sbssbbw

The plates I'm using have been available forever (the brand name eludes me at the moment),and CaptainFab also has a great kit available.
I suspect both will bring the box out 3/4"(1/2" spacer and 1/4" plate).
This space is to accommodate the bulge on the frame side of the box( the 73-87 frames have a divot pressed into the frame rail allowing the box to bolt solidly to the frame).
Both kits also have the lower mounting stud that hangs below the lower flange as the 73-87 frames are taller than the 63-66's in the ps box area.
I see you're working on a '62...The 60-62 frames are a little different and not sure if a full xm swap is the best way to go ,,but either way CaptainFab has a 60-62 specific PS conversion kit that works for you.
hope this helps
T

I'm using a 65 frame. I like captin fabs bracket but it looks like its thicker than like a cpp one. I wonder if some are better than others?
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[luvbowties]

Originally Posted by 62chevy302

I'm using a 65 frame. I like captin fabs bracket but it looks like its thicker than like a cpp one. I wonder if some are better than others?
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Dunno about CPP's, but there's only so thin you can go. Also, having bought the Captain's for a '65, his clears the frame about as minimum as possible. Also, he's continually upgrading instructions plus he's RIGHT HERE and ANXIOUS to help if u find a snag. If you're gonna buy one, BUY HIS.
Sam

[62chevy302]

Originally Posted by luvbowties

Dunno about CPP's, but there's only so thin you can go. Also, having bought the Captain's for a '65, his clears the frame about as minimum as possible. Also, he's continually upgrading instructions plus he's RIGHT HERE and ANXIOUS to help if u find a snag. If you're gonna buy one, BUY HIS.
Sam

That's my plan. How much does it shorten the turning radius?
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[63sbssbbw]

Sweet ...A ride in that Camaro would be quite a thrill,I've heard she can really drive that thing!
I think if you were going to that extent a rack and pinion set up would be much more responsive than the old worm and sector box.
There's a few rides here that have "the set up"
T

[gulfcoast66]

Posted via Mobile Device. Here you go this is the kit that Captfab has its everything you need to finish the your P.S install.. Hope this Helps..
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[gulfcoast66]

Posted via Mobile Device. Here's mine I used the center link from the doner truck, and the kit and it bolted right in place... Chris..
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[gulfcoast66]

Posted via Mobile Device. The turn radius is least affected by using the updated drag-link, and a direct fit with Captfab P.S. kit. That's the way I install mine with no problems. Later I will upgrade new tie-rods ect. But for getting it all mocked up and in place that's the way to go Bro. Notice the difference in length between the two drag-links..1966 and a 1972 and later... Are you using the 65 drag-link??
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[Captainfab]

My power steering box adapter plates move the steering box 9/16" to the left. This is the absolute minimum that the plate can be. The difference in the turning radius, as a result of upgrading to power steering can easily be compensated for by offsetting the steering linkage back to the right. This can be done when you have a front end alignment, which is a good idea after you make a change such as power steering, and/or disc brake upgrade.

[62chevy302]

Originally Posted by Captainfab

My power steering box adapter plates move the steering box 9/16" to the left. This is the absolute minimum that the plate can be. The difference in the turning radius, as a result of upgrading to power steering can easily be compensated for by offsetting the steering linkage back to the right. This can be done when you have a front end alignment, which is a good idea after you make a change such as power steering, and/or disc brake upgrade.

when you split the difference of the the 9/16" how many steering wheel revolutions do you loose?

[LostMy65]

Saved for reference.
My 62 idler is going out.
Rather than spend $100 for a new 62 one, I'm just going to replace it with a 73-87 one.
I'll use the info in this thread for locating the new one.

[dracko]

I just went through this on my '64. I used captain fab's plate and swapped in a complete 74 crossmember and gearbox.

I found that with my DS tie rods adjusted all the way in til they were touching, (and the steering gearbox centered) the DS tire was still pointing out. I ended up cutting 3/4" off one of the tie rods to bring the toe in more. Now I have the same 1 3/4 full rotations of the gearbox in both directions and the tire are ballpark aligned (string line) with room for final adjustment.