Warning to anyone in the Phoenix area - The 1947 - Present Chevrolet & GMC Truck Message Board Network

Project1970 · 10-12-2002, 10:00 PM

Shop to avoid: Brakes Plus on Chandler and 48th.

Why?

Well, I got new tires on my truck yesterday, and I knew it needed an alignment judging by the way the Radial T/A's wore. So I saw their ad for a $33 alignment...sweet.

So I took it in, they lift it up...

They come back. "Yeah, you need new upper ball joints and cross shafts. But we need to know what year the parts are." I tell them, they come back with a price... $461. I say just align it anyway, then after five minutes, they come back and say "We can't do it unless you get those parts fixed." So I walk out and look under my truck just for the heck of it...

They didn't turn a single bolt. Kind of hard to tell whether a balljoint is bad without even removing it from the spindle or the A-arm...and by the way, this is a 3-year-old 20,000-mile piece from my Early Classic kit, not the originals (which were FINE when I took them off after 29 years and 100,000 miles).

Took it over to the Purcell's on Ray and 40th (approx) and they did it for $50. I asked just for my own sake "How did the front end look?"

"We've never seen one tighter."

Chatted a bit more, and apparently that shop in particular gets a lot of Brake Plus' work. Apparently, Brake Plus won't do a brake job for under $500 - they wanna do calipers and hoses and the whole nine yards. At least they didn't charge me anything - but they didn't do anything other than waste my time, either. They're gonna hear it from me, and so is the Attorney General and the BBB. Maybe a news station or two if they have really really easy ways to do those customer-complaint things (I'm lazy, you see, hehe)

ebfabman · 10-12-2002, 10:11 PM

Volunteer your truck to a TV news crew to do a sting on them. Lots of times they won't even check, they just say you need all this stuff to drive the price way the hell up. Tell you you need stuff even when you don't. Happens everywhere all the time. They sound like rip off artist. Best thing to so is expose them to the public.

Project1970 · 10-12-2002, 10:17 PM

My truck wouldn't work, it's far too distinctive.

I did fire off an email to the local station that loves to do these things, though. If my truck wasn't so easy to spot (I'm sure they'd look at it and say "Did you get those ball joints yet?") I'd do it in a heartbeat, though.

I wonder what they would do if you took in a vehicle that had ALL brand-new stuff on it, just dusted so it didn't look brand new. Or, better yet, get a 2002 of something and go in and say it's a 1997.

Maximum Overdrive · 10-12-2002, 10:40 PM

Does sound like they were trying to scam you. Just running an add to bring people in for work not needed. BTW you can check ball joints to see if they are good or not without removing them.

cableguy0 · 10-13-2002, 12:00 AM

u have to check balljoints on the vechile. the only way to truly see is to shake the wheel and tire up and down some will even move left to right which usually shows a bad tie rod end but not always

Bowed · 10-13-2002, 01:47 AM

I live just down the street from that brakes plus you went to and am sad to say much of the business around here is the same way . They have big overheads in this area and they feel they must generate big service charges to turn a profit . I do every repair I can my self and keep trying to learn more all the time . Right now I am teaching my self auto air conditioning . Fletchers wanted to charge me $1100.00 to fix my G M air system and I was able to do it for a little over $100.00 and a day of my time .

NSANE68!!! · 10-13-2002, 02:34 AM

I tried one of those places with my Maxima. Brand new whwwls and tires. They align it, I take a 1500mi trip. When I get home the outside edge of the tire is almost gone.
I went back furios. The IDIOT didn't set the toe correctly. Needless to say they bought me new tires. Here,s the funny part, they could'nt find 2 tires too match the rears. So I made them buy all 4 new. I didn't want miss matched tire, especially since I had just bought them a week prior.
Now the only place that does my vehichles is NETWORK ALIGNMENT, they know their $hit.

Project1970 · 10-13-2002, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bowed
I live just down the street from that brakes plus you went to and am sad to say much of the business around here is the same way . They have big overheads in this area and they feel they must generate big service charges to turn a profit . I do every repair I can my self and keep trying to learn more all the time . Right now I am teaching my self auto air conditioning . Fletchers wanted to charge me $1100.00 to fix my G M air system and I was able to do it for a little over $100.00 and a day of my time .

Yeah, I know it; far too many sleazy shops around there. (I'm on the other side of the 10 when I'm up here in Chandler...) Of course, they do it because you don't get much more of a yuppie town than Ahwatukee, who doesn't care what you ram down their throats and will pay for it every time.

I should've just gone to Purcell's in the first place; they did the insurance work on the Camaro when a yuppie chick driving her daddy's SUV backed into my brother in the school parking lot (cracked the fender and wanted it realigned just in case...it wasn't really off) and they did a good job then too.

I try to do as much as I can myself, but I don't have an alignment machine that can measure camber, caster, and toe all at once. (Not yet, at least. :P ) Plus, $50 isn't a bad deal at all.

firstgencamaros · 10-13-2002, 04:04 AM

I went to a big o here in Gilbert, AZ with my 69 camaro after I replaced the entire cars suspention with energy suspention stuff. They told me I they were going to have to charge me double because everything was new and the alignment would be way off..... Well duh..... That's why you have the big machine goober! I put all the shims back in like they were when I did the rebuild and set the toe with a tape. It was real close, drove straight. I just waited a few weeks and let a little road grime build up on it and didn't mention to the next shop that everything was new. Guess what.... No problems...
Auto repair shops didn't just get a bad rep for no reason, they have been screwing people for years and will continue to do so... There are good ones out there but they are few and far between. The best thing you can do is be well informed and always get a couple of estimates if possible.
Later,

ChevLoRay · 10-13-2002, 10:59 AM

Checking front end wear is, or should, be done when you take your vehicle in for alignment. What I have seen done to check ball joints is to drive it on the alignment rack, then raise the front end enough to lift the tires off of the tables. Then, take a pry bar and try to lift the tire slightly. If you have worn ball joints, it will be evident.

As for upper and lower control arm shafts/bushings, the wear there will be evident, too. You should also be hearing a fairly loud popping noise when the suspension is working, i.e., pot holes, dips and turns, like into a parking lot.

I had my '96 Silverado aligned twice by a shop that I thought to be good. Wrong. I took it to a shop that I had used before, and asked them to do a print-out before and after the alignment. The shop owner also drives every vehicle after alignments. I have never had a problem with their alignments.

On my '69, we did some extensive front end/chassis refurbishment. I have a friend who does alignments for a body shop. I had him to check it out and found that we also needed a new idler arm...something I figured we'd need but didn't change. At least he confirmed it for me. When he aligned it, all specs were set to factory (1969) specs. My truck is lowered 2.5" in front, and 4-inches in the rear, all with Early Classic Enterprises goods. In addition, I gained another inch of lowering when I put the 235R60-15's on the front. These were also on when I had it aligned.

In a year of driving, I've had no problems with wear or pulling. I didn't expect to. It drives like new, which is what I intended.

Just because a shop has an alignment rack, doesn't mean that they know how to use it. Changing parts is sometimes necessary, but I can guarantee you that when they do, they have to make adjustments for the new part. Previous alignments were done to compensate for the old part and wear. To have a shop decline to do an alignment because you have new parts is effectively having them to say, "You cheated us out of making money on the parts, so find another shop to do your alignment". Then, they could be saying they don't want their reputation on the line for someone elses work. Doesn't make any sense. Alignments are not guaranteed. We are privileged to get to drive, and subject to the conditions of the roads we drive on.

ckhd · 10-13-2002, 01:52 PM

While we're on the subject of warnings to PHX people, DON'T GO TO AAMCO!!

I made the mistake of taking my Maxima there, and it was a horrific experience lasting many months and involving three AAMCOs.

Long story short, my Maxima has 3,000 miles on the tranny now, and it's parked because I need to replace the tranny.

Project1970 · 10-13-2002, 01:56 PM

ChevLoRay - I've got nearly the same setup on my truck, ECE 2.5" drop spindles / disc conversions up front with 245/60-15 tires (absolute biggest that'll fit without rubbing as far as I can tell...though bigger wouldn't be a problem with more backspacing, probably) and 4" drop ECE rear leaves.

I think the cross shafts and the A-arms (and their pivots) are probably the majority of what's original under the front of that truck, and they're still in good shape. Ball joints, tie-rod ends, and the idler arm have all been personally replaced. Most of what came off wasn't "bad", either.

And while I stand corrected on determining whether balljoints are bad on or off the vehicle, I would think that I'd notice problems from that if it really couldn't hold an alignment well enough to set it. It drove (and still does, Purcell's didn't screw up what was already good...though they did set everything back to where it should be, my toe was within specs and even but out near the edges of the specs) perfectly straight, no wandering, nothing. It just wore out the outside corners of the tires. If it was a matter of the alignment varying due to bad parts, that truck would be all over the road...

What it came down to was, they weren't going to do an alignment for $33 - they'd lose money on the deal because I wasn't going to drop $450 in parts I didn't need. Five bucks says if I did it anyway, and asked to see the old parts, they wouldn't have shown me the same ones.

I wonder what they'd have done if I asked to see why it was all so bad...and if I had called their BS right in the workbay.

10-12-2002, 10:00 PM	#1
Project1970 14.1 @ 96MPH Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 2,811	Warning to anyone in the Phoenix area Shop to avoid: Brakes Plus on Chandler and 48th. Why? Well, I got new tires on my truck yesterday, and I knew it needed an alignment judging by the way the Radial T/A's wore. So I saw their ad for a $33 alignment...sweet. So I took it in, they lift it up... They come back. "Yeah, you need new upper ball joints and cross shafts. But we need to know what year the parts are." I tell them, they come back with a price... $461. I say just align it anyway, then after five minutes, they come back and say "We can't do it unless you get those parts fixed." So I walk out and look under my truck just for the heck of it... They didn't turn a single bolt. Kind of hard to tell whether a balljoint is bad without even removing it from the spindle or the A-arm...and by the way, this is a 3-year-old 20,000-mile piece from my Early Classic kit, not the originals (which were FINE when I took them off after 29 years and 100,000 miles). Took it over to the Purcell's on Ray and 40th (approx) and they did it for $50. I asked just for my own sake "How did the front end look?" "We've never seen one tighter." Chatted a bit more, and apparently that shop in particular gets a lot of Brake Plus' work. Apparently, Brake Plus won't do a brake job for under $500 - they wanna do calipers and hoses and the whole nine yards. At least they didn't charge me anything - but they didn't do anything other than waste my time, either. They're gonna hear it from me, and so is the Attorney General and the BBB. Maybe a news station or two if they have really really easy ways to do those customer-complaint things (I'm lazy, you see, hehe) __________________ Project1970 - LS1 Swap Complete!

10-12-2002, 10:17 PM	#3
Project1970 14.1 @ 96MPH Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 2,811	My truck wouldn't work, it's far too distinctive. I did fire off an email to the local station that loves to do these things, though. If my truck wasn't so easy to spot (I'm sure they'd look at it and say "Did you get those ball joints yet?") I'd do it in a heartbeat, though. I wonder what they would do if you took in a vehicle that had ALL brand-new stuff on it, just dusted so it didn't look brand new. Or, better yet, get a 2002 of something and go in and say it's a 1997. __________________ Project1970 - LS1 Swap Complete!

10-12-2002, 10:40 PM	#4
Maximum Overdrive December 21, 2012 Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Black Eagle, Montana Posts: 1,634	Does sound like they were trying to scam you. Just running an add to bring people in for work not needed. BTW you can check ball joints to see if they are good or not without removing them. __________________ *"!Ama Sua, Ama Kjella, Ama Lllulla!"*

10-13-2002, 12:00 AM	#5
cableguy0 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Delta,Pa Posts: 14,950	u have to check balljoints on the vechile. the only way to truly see is to shake the wheel and tire up and down some will even move left to right which usually shows a bad tie rod end but not always __________________ Owner of North Point Car Care in Dundalk Md. We specialize in custom exhaust on both modern and classic vehicles. We are a full service auto shop from classics to modern vehicles. Feel free to contact me with questions. I will give a 10% discount to any board member.

10-13-2002, 02:34 AM	#7
NSANE68!!! SLICER AND DICIER Join Date: May 2001 Location: Quuen Creek Posts: 1,383	I tried one of those places with my Maxima. Brand new whwwls and tires. They align it, I take a 1500mi trip. When I get home the outside edge of the tire is almost gone. I went back furios. The IDIOT didn't set the toe correctly. Needless to say they bought me new tires. Here,s the funny part, they could'nt find 2 tires too match the rears. So I made them buy all 4 new. I didn't want miss matched tire, especially since I had just bought them a week prior. Now the only place that does my vehichles is NETWORK ALIGNMENT, they know their $hit. __________________ 01 Tahoe 22's 2/4 drop and tv's 68 chevy money pit 51 chevy belair 95 Honda 900RR 05 GMC Siearra (company truck)

10-12-2002, 10:11 PM	#2
ebfabman Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Concord, NC Posts: 2,489	Volunteer your truck to a TV news crew to do a sting on them. Lots of times they won't even check, they just say you need all this stuff to drive the price way the hell up. Tell you you need stuff even when you don't. Happens everywhere all the time. They sound like rip off artist. Best thing to so is expose them to the public.

10-13-2002, 01:47 AM	#6
Bowed Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: where it's hot Posts: 1,059	I live just down the street from that brakes plus you went to and am sad to say much of the business around here is the same way . They have big overheads in this area and they feel they must generate big service charges to turn a profit . I do every repair I can my self and keep trying to learn more all the time . Right now I am teaching my self auto air conditioning . Fletchers wanted to charge me $1100.00 to fix my G M air system and I was able to do it for a little over $100.00 and a day of my time .

10-13-2002, 04:04 AM	#9
firstgencamaros Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 151	I went to a big o here in Gilbert, AZ with my 69 camaro after I replaced the entire cars suspention with energy suspention stuff. They told me I they were going to have to charge me double because everything was new and the alignment would be way off..... Well duh..... That's why you have the big machine goober! I put all the shims back in like they were when I did the rebuild and set the toe with a tape. It was real close, drove straight. I just waited a few weeks and let a little road grime build up on it and didn't mention to the next shop that everything was new. Guess what.... No problems... Auto repair shops didn't just get a bad rep for no reason, they have been screwing people for years and will continue to do so... There are good ones out there but they are few and far between. The best thing you can do is be well informed and always get a couple of estimates if possible. Later, __________________ FGC

10-13-2002, 10:59 AM	#10
ChevLoRay Old Skool Club Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Benton, AR "The Heart of Arkansas" Posts: 10,880	Checking front end wear is, or should, be done when you take your vehicle in for alignment. What I have seen done to check ball joints is to drive it on the alignment rack, then raise the front end enough to lift the tires off of the tables. Then, take a pry bar and try to lift the tire slightly. If you have worn ball joints, it will be evident. As for upper and lower control arm shafts/bushings, the wear there will be evident, too. You should also be hearing a fairly loud popping noise when the suspension is working, i.e., pot holes, dips and turns, like into a parking lot. I had my '96 Silverado aligned twice by a shop that I thought to be good. Wrong. I took it to a shop that I had used before, and asked them to do a print-out before and after the alignment. The shop owner also drives every vehicle after alignments. I have never had a problem with their alignments. On my '69, we did some extensive front end/chassis refurbishment. I have a friend who does alignments for a body shop. I had him to check it out and found that we also needed a new idler arm...something I figured we'd need but didn't change. At least he confirmed it for me. When he aligned it, all specs were set to factory (1969) specs. My truck is lowered 2.5" in front, and 4-inches in the rear, all with Early Classic Enterprises goods. In addition, I gained another inch of lowering when I put the 235R60-15's on the front. These were also on when I had it aligned. In a year of driving, I've had no problems with wear or pulling. I didn't expect to. It drives like new, which is what I intended. Just because a shop has an alignment rack, doesn't mean that they know how to use it. Changing parts is sometimes necessary, but I can guarantee you that when they do, they have to make adjustments for the new part. Previous alignments were done to compensate for the old part and wear. To have a shop decline to do an alignment because you have new parts is effectively having them to say, "You cheated us out of making money on the parts, so find another shop to do your alignment". Then, they could be saying they don't want their reputation on the line for someone elses work. Doesn't make any sense. Alignments are not guaranteed. We are privileged to get to drive, and subject to the conditions of the roads we drive on. __________________ Member Nr. 2770 '96 GMC Sportside; 4.3/SLT - Daily driven....constantly needs washed. '69 C-10 SWB; 350/TH400 - in limbo The older I get, the better I was.

10-13-2002, 01:52 PM	#11
ckhd Registered User Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: St. Johns, Arizona Posts: 2,660	While we're on the subject of warnings to PHX people, DON'T GO TO AAMCO!! I made the mistake of taking my Maxima there, and it was a horrific experience lasting many months and involving three AAMCOs. Long story short, my Maxima has 3,000 miles on the tranny now, and it's parked because I need to replace the tranny. __________________ my 2¢ - t.i.o.l.i. Bowen 1968 K20 fleet 1969 K10 swb fleet 1972 K10 Suburban 1972 C10 lwb step 1992 K1500 'burb 1995 K2500 'burb 1997 C1500 'burb 1999 K1500 2000 K1500 'burb Why do I own so many Suburbans?

10-13-2002, 01:56 PM	#12
Project1970 14.1 @ 96MPH Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 2,811	ChevLoRay - I've got nearly the same setup on my truck, ECE 2.5" drop spindles / disc conversions up front with 245/60-15 tires (absolute biggest that'll fit without rubbing as far as I can tell...though bigger wouldn't be a problem with more backspacing, probably) and 4" drop ECE rear leaves. I think the cross shafts and the A-arms (and their pivots) are probably the majority of what's original under the front of that truck, and they're still in good shape. Ball joints, tie-rod ends, and the idler arm have all been personally replaced. Most of what came off wasn't "bad", either. And while I stand corrected on determining whether balljoints are bad on or off the vehicle, I would think that I'd notice problems from that if it really couldn't hold an alignment well enough to set it. It drove (and still does, Purcell's didn't screw up what was already good...though they did set everything back to where it should be, my toe was within specs and even but out near the edges of the specs) perfectly straight, no wandering, nothing. It just wore out the outside corners of the tires. If it was a matter of the alignment varying due to bad parts, that truck would be all over the road... What it came down to was, they weren't going to do an alignment for $33 - they'd lose money on the deal because I wasn't going to drop $450 in parts I didn't need. Five bucks says if I did it anyway, and asked to see the old parts, they wouldn't have shown me the same ones. I wonder what they'd have done if I asked to see why it was all so bad...and if I had called their BS right in the workbay. __________________ Project1970 - LS1 Swap Complete!



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