Loose Lug Nuts

[engineer_gregh]

I've installed 20" Boss 338's on my longbed. Yesterday a guy pulls up next to me at a red light and informed me that my left front wheel looked to be loose. After I initially installed them I went back and checked for loose lug nuts at a couple of hundred miles and all was good. Now after 700-800 miles a couple of lug nuts were loose at all four corners. Anyone else have this problem with their over sized or after market wheels? This scared the crap out of me, the last thing I want is to experience losing a wheel at any speed.

[OrangeCrush1970]

Are they sleeved lug nuts? I ran into this last week for the first time....almost lost my passenger rear tire. I thought I had a blow out, lost 4 lug nuts and the last 2 were several turns from coming off. It was the first time this had happened and the wheels have been on this truck for years.

My only thought for you is that the lug nuts are a little too small for the lugnut bore in your wheels?? Did you use washers on your lugnuts?

[geezer#99]

Did you tighten them or did you torque them in to place?

[RManson]

Does the wheel have a flat surface (flat countersink) or is it tapered where the lug nut engages the wheel? You can't run a tapered lug nut with a flat countersink mag wheel. If they're tapered, make sure the lug nut taper is larger than width of the widest point of the taper on the wheel so that the lug nuts don't "suck" into the wheel's taper. That could cause a problem. My bet is the studs are too long for the nuts and they're bottoming out on the top of the stud just before they're tight enough, causing them to come loose.

Once you figure it out, be sure to torque them to manufacturer's specs. 90lbs is probably good. Don't rely on your impact, in fact don't even use an impact.

[davepl]

You can use an impact, just make sure you use a torque stick. I've always just used a torque wrench, but 32 bolts at 140 ftlbs is quite a workout, so I ordered torque sticks from Amazon. The reviews and mfr claims indicate they hit within 5% or so of the indicated value:

Amazon.com: TO405EXT - 5 Piece 1/2" Drive...

On your truck specifically did you happen to change studs? If they're "pulled" in with a lugnut that's bad, they don't always seat, then when you install wheels and drive it the studs get seated further in and now your nut is loose. That's why they need to be pressed in.

[leftybass209]

I hate to ask questions that seem common knowledge but along with all the above questions, did you tighten them in the correct sequence like a cross pattern or did you just go around in a circle? I've done that stuff in my mechanical infancy!

[engineer_gregh]

You bring up very good questions. Pictures are worth a thousand words. Are these the correct style lug nuts? Once I installed the wheels I took the truck to a local tire store and had them torqued as I don't have a torque wrench. I've put on hundreds of wheels and tires in my life time but never mag wheels so maybe I've got the wrong style lug nuts for these wheels. I didn't use washers, maybe I should?

[volksworld]

hard to tell from the photo...if the area around the lug nut hole tapers in at a 45 degree angle ,you have the correct nuts....if its completely flat,you need the nut and washer style....now,the nut and washer ones have a threaded sleeve that extends into the thick rim for adequate holding power,but the acorn style you show need the stud to extend out past the seat as far as they would have with thinner steel wheels...and they look too short in your photo

[Fitz]

Originally Posted by engineer_gregh

Are these the correct style lug nuts?

Lugs look correct and the 60 degree taper lugs do not use washers. The thread pitch should be national fine, 20 threads per inch. For a grade 8 fastener torque should be 90 ft-lbs.

[engineer_gregh]

I went back and looked. There is a taper so the lug nuts are correct. I doesn't look like the lug nuts would bottom out and there appears to be enough threads to fill the nuts 75% or so. I'm not sure what the problem is. Maybe some of the other folks running Boss 338's could chime in, are they having the same problem and is so what did they do to remedy the problem.

[geezer#99]

You have the right lug nuts. 60 degree conical seat. And your studs look right. The nut needs to thread on a distance equal to the width of the stud. In your case that would be 1/2 inch.
Get yourself a cheap torque wrench and check them often. I torque mine when installed, after the first drive, after 50 miles and check again once in awhile.
Torque them in increments. Torque in a star pattern. Start at 50, then 70 then finish at 90.
Go over them again to be sure.
Over or under torqued nuts can cause rotor warpage not to mention the panic of a wheel passing you. Your wheel, the one that was on your truck!

[pwdcougar]

How smooth is the mating surface on the brake drum and hub? I had a problem with aftermarket rims not mating up to the brake drum leaving a space between them. The space was around 1/16". No matter how tight I ran the lug nuts in, the wheel would flex and the lug nuts would loosen up. Lost a rear wheel on with my then 3 year old daughter in the car. She is 20 now and I still havent told my wife yet.

Paul

[engineer_gregh]

Thanks for the responses everyone. I put a dab of white paint down into the center of the lug nuts and torqued them down to see if maybe I was bottoming out, doesn't appear to be the case. I'm going to order new lug nuts and give that a try. Maybe the one I have are just cheap lug nuts. After a lot of reading I'm ordering McGard from Amazon, made in the US and based on my reading are very good quality.

Amazon.com: McGard 64000 Chrome Cone Seat Style...

[Front Range]

Revisting this topic.

Had the left front 35" tire come off at around 55mph last night around 10pm. Extremely fortunate to have no other vehicles in front of me and no oncoming traffic because the tire rolled about an 1/8th mile bouncing into the oncoming lanes until it crossed back over and into some bushes. Nothing quite like the adrenaline rush of steering on the backing plate with a rooster tail of sparks watching your big ass tire rocket off into the oncoming lane. I ended up ordering some of the extended seat Et acorn lugs with 60 degree cone seat. I'm hoping that will suck up some of the gap between stud and rim hole at the wheel seat. I don't think the basic acorn nut is keeping the rims seated because every now and again I will find a loose or missing lug. These are older American Racing aluminum rims.

Spooky.

[davepl]

If you're wondering what happens if the lug nuts come all the way off... it sucks!

Apparently they put new wheels on just before selling it and didn't hand-torque them, and I wasn't in the habit of checking new cars for tight lug nuts. I am now though!

[garyd1961]

Originally Posted by davepl

If you're wondering what happens if the lug nuts come all the way off... it sucks!

Apparently they put new wheels on just before selling it and didn't hand-torque them, and I wasn't in the habit of checking new cars for tight lug nuts. I am now though!

My cousin was looking for an S10 to put a 427 stroker in. He found a 87 that was really clean and already had a sb 400 and ford 9 inch in it. He removed the 400 and installed the 427 and was on the way to the muffler shop when the rear wheel came off. It didn't do as much damage as yours but man that sucks.

[davepl]

Originally Posted by garyd1961

My cousin ... was on the way to the muffler shop when the rear wheel came off.

That's funny, that's exactly where I was going when mine came off! The sounds I heard that -might- have tipped me off I wrote off as the loose exhaust I was on my way to have fixed!

[toolboxchev]

Originally Posted by davepl

If you're wondering what happens if the lug nuts come all the way off... it sucks!

Apparently they put new wheels on just before selling it and didn't hand-torque them, and I wasn't in the habit of checking new cars for tight lug nuts. I am now though!

X2 on hand torque and then re-check after a few miles and again after a few hundred.

The guys at most of the big chain store like to impact them on. And thats a big no-no in my book. One of the many reasons why I prefer to do most of my own work.

[In The Ten Ring]

Originally Posted by toolboxchev

X2 on hand torque and then re-check after a few miles and again after a few hundred.

The guys at most of the big chain store like to impact them on. And thats a big no-no in my book. One of the many reasons why I prefer to do most of my own work.

I do all my own tire rotations also, I don't even own air tools.

[Gromit]

http://www.boltscience.com/pages/josteffect.htm

No need to click the link because here is the full text: (unless you want to see the diagram) ha ha

The Jost Effect:
Nut sliding on joint surface
The vast majority of threaded fasteners retain their preload because of friction present on the thread and head contact surfaces that resists self-loosening. It was thought that once relative motion occurs between the threaded surfaces and other contact surfaces of the clamped parts (because of a tangential external force being applied to the joint), the bolted connection would become free of friction in a circumferential direction. More recent studies have shown that under conditions of transverse slip there is a small, but measureable, force resisting circumferential movement.

In the above diagram, the red arrow shows the joint surface moving under the nut. When slip occurs at the thread interface as well as the nut face, the frictional resisting forces in the circumferential direction reduce to a very small value. The Jost Effect is the name given to the reduction in the frictional resistance that occurs in a direction different to that inwhich slip is occurring. This effect is used in many applications including the removal of corks from bottles. If the cork is first rotated the force needed to pull the cork from the bottle is significantly reduced. Several machines and applications use indirectly the Jost Effect, for example floor polishing machines, the machine being easier to move when the polishing disk is rotating. Nut sliding and rotating on a joint surfaceIt is also the fundamental reason why threaded fasteners experience self-loosening. Frictional resistance is first overcome in the transverse direction by slip occurring on the joint resulting in the frictional resistance in the circumferential direction reducing to a small value. The torque acting on the fastener in the loosening direction (as a result of its preload) that when coupled with the Jost Effect results in self-loosening occurring. This is illustrated in the diagram.

The term is named after the Institute that completed research into this effect, the Jost Institute of Tribotechnology at the University of Central Lancashire in the UK.

[davepl]

Originally Posted by In The Ten Ring

I do all my own tire rotations also, I don't even own air tools.

Did you see my post about torque sticks? I use them and have for years, but since losing a wheel (not related to my own work) I have always hand-checked them with a click-style torque wrench.

They've always been right. That is, after all, what they're for - to limit snap torque. But you need the stick, or it's wrong!

Lug nuts + impact gun == bad mojo
Lug nuts + impact gun + torque stick == seems perfect

[Gromit]

It was late last night when I posted about the Jost Effect so I didn't comment then but I wanted to add what I think might be the reason we see these lugnuts loosening.

Assume the wheel is just sitting square on the hub and studs with no lugnuts and with no weight on the wheel. You could grab that wheel and tire at nine and three o'clock and be able to rock it just a degree or so up and down, right?

In other words there is a little play due to the studs being smaller than the holes in the wheel.

And lets assume this is the stock steelie because on those wheels the hubcentric feature still keeps the wheel reasonably centered, even though the wheel can still move that one degree in each direction - lets call it up and down - relative to the studs.

So I think that the Jost effect might be coming into play during driving as rotational forces between the wheel and hub change or switch directions between clockwise (acceleration) and counter-clockwise (braking) - and with hundreds or thousands of such cycles the lugnuts will (slowly at first but then quicker as the clamping force is lessened), come loose.

I'm thinking that the factory recommended 65 foot pound figure may not be enough - but with a 7/16th stud I would worry about exceeding say the ASTM standard for that size bolt and thread count..so for now I am upping it by five pounds and just watching them more..especially after carrying heavy loads.

So that is just a guess and hopefully someone who really knows will speak up and educate us all - and thanks again to Gregh for posting this thread and getting people to check their wheels; it really was a good topic to post in terms of saving people potential grief..

[In The Ten Ring]

Originally Posted by davepl

Did you see my post about torque sticks? I use them and have for years, but since losing a wheel (not related to my own work) I have always hand-checked them with a click-style torque wrench.

They've always been right. That is, after all, what they're for - to limit snap torque. But you need the stick, or it's wrong!

Lug nuts + impact gun == bad mojo
Lug nuts + impact gun + torque stick == seems perfect

*You know, I did not see your post! I am just now seeing this and decided to reply to a post for the first time in weeks.

I went to a new shop for tire inspection, the owner being the son of a man my father had many dealings with. He used the "torque stick." I also allowed me into the shop during the inspection, which was very thorough. At first I protested the use of an air tool but he calmly explained and he was right, getting the lug nuts off was pretty easy.

ALSO he explained why I has having all the loose lug nut problems. His explanation: Accord's wheels are aluminum, which were loosing their clear coat badly and were corroding. The hubs and drums being steel, we get "dissimilar metal corrosion" when two different metals, especially aluminum and steel come into contact. There is rust and aluminum oxide at the meeting which breaks away after initial tightening, making the nuts loose as the two surfaces are no longer touching (rust fell away).

He suggested I clean both surfaces with a wire wheel whenever I remove a wheel. I tried this: BOOM. Problem solved. My next drive by there I pulled in and told him "you were right about the wheels AND "torque stick."

I try to be a good guy, admitting my mistakes when I realize those.

I have now found a set of Enkei rims for my Honda, OEM, which I intend to have powder coated in that two-tone effect I asked advice on here many months ago. My original rims are much too far gone, according to several powder coaters.

No more use of a cheater bar needed during wheel removal, no more loose lug nuts. I will still carry it, as I may need it to change some disabled motorist's stuck lug nuts.

[toolboxchev]

Originally Posted by In The Ten Ring

I do all my own tire rotations also, I don't even own air tools.

Every time I let a shop do my rotations I end up with dings in my rims. I too own no air tools.

I worked for Firestone for a period of time, It was amazing how many people came in for an oil change and we had to replace their entire oil pan due to Jiffy Lube using an air tool on oil pan drain bolts.

Amazing I tell you!

[Front Range]

Ok garyd.

ET extended taper Lug nuts, much better fit vs plain acorn. Torqued to 85 ft lbs.