AC Delco Master Cylinder

[samkost]

Just a follow up on my OE style Master Cylinder swap.
With help from a friend we swapped out the OE master cylinder with the new bench bled master, checked the correct gap for the long piston between the booster and the master ( 1/16”+ gap before pedal activation), and then bled the system starting at the right rear drum, left rear drum, right front disc then the driver side disc.
After a test start up to check for leaks I took it for a test drive only to have the same previous hard pedal condition.
I could not lock up the brakes.
I did need to replace the OE master due to age and a little corrosion but now the focus is on a new faulty (less than 150 miles) POL Power Brake Booster.
I did the two pedal tests and it failed both.
I then ran the engine for a few minutes, turned it off and 30 seconds later unplugged the power booster check valve.
No hissing or escaping air at that point. Booster check valve tested good.
I then got a vacuum gauge to the carburetor vacuum line and found 16 in. Hg of vacuum. I believe and hope that this is good enough vacuum.
So after every said and done, turns out I may have a brand new faulty POL Power Brake booster. I have heard that others have had brand new bad booster issues out of the box.
I will call POL on Tuesday and see what they have to say.
I may just go with my OE original functioning black painted Delco Moraine power booster and forget the pretty Cadmium plated after market booster.
no more bling!
I enjoy working and especially learning about my truck.
Any advice and input would again be appreciated.
Thanks all,

[1972CheyenneSuper]

POL has the worst customer service right up there with Jegs. I had an issue this spring with a break booster/master cylinder setup when I was trying to work the kinks out of a fresh restoration. Called them up and after a few rounds of trying to get ahold of somebody, I get a hold of a Frank or Fred or something along those lines. Very grumpy and annoyed individual. I explained to him that I had bought the setup through a supplier that basically drop shipped their parts. He says no support is available since I hadn't directly bought it from them. I had to reiterate a couple of times that the company you work for obviously has some sort of agreement to distribute the products through various resellers and they're all going to point the finger back at you for support. A couple rounds of that and I finally got through.

I then explained my problem of which I had good pedal feel and the brakes were stopping well, but the pedal would not fully rise without some assistance with your foot from the bottom. The brake pedal arm pivot I had checked numerous times and was free and not binding, the push rod length was correct, the booster check valve was good, the pedal return spring was good(also a second one I tried). Really the only thing I thought it could be at that point was the brake booster. But we didn't get that far in our conversation. He asked me what engine I had in the truck and how much vacuum I was making. I told him I had a cammed LS and vacuum was about 15-16". He said that wasn't enough to make the brakes work. I told him it didn't matter if the engine was running or nut, the pedal would not return. Round and round we went and he was dead set on a vacuum deficiency being the problem and we couldn't even begin to explore other troubleshooting options until I had installed a vacuum pump or similar device to generate more vacuum. I informed him that not another one of my vehicles would never see another POL part on them and we parted ways. He just absolutely would not think outside of the box to offer any suggestions of what was wrong.

A couple hours later of messing around, I finally found that a spacer tube on the fulcrum pivot arm on the booster bracket where it attaches to the booster arm and the brake pedal arm was binding on the firewall bracket. I could have ground it down and probably fixed it, but I removed the entire setup and cleaned up my original brackets, bought a new master cylinder and reman Delco booster and was on my way. I had bought the POL setup originally just because it was a full kit and ready to go, so I thought. Anyways, that was my experience. Give POL a call and see if you have any better luck than myself, and if your bored, check out their Yelp and BBB reviews. I've never reached the point of asking for a manager, but I was very tempted to call back and ask for one, not even for support at that stage but to tell them to watch how their employees conduct business. After looking at the reviews, I knew that wouldn't go anywhere.

[samkost]

Thanks for reply 1972CheyenneSuper.
You bring up an interesting point about linkage clearance/travel.
After reading your post I looked at my Booster firewall clearance and it doesn’t looks right, maybe I’m not getting enough pedal travel?
It looks tight in my photo and there is some fresh paint chips on the firewall.
I do believe that their Booster is bad though.
The tests seem to confirm that.
I need to double check this installation from the restoration mechanics that screwed up several other items.
The Resto shop from hell. did some sub par shoddy work that I have had to correct the last 2 years.
I did purchase directly from POL so we’ll see.
Thanks, Sam

[RustyPile]

I'll offer my experience with booster/mc "kits" as perhaps an alternative approach..

About 5 years ago, I decided to install power brakes on my '71.. I contacted Summit and asked a few questions about the "conversion" kit they offer.. I decided to go with it as it also included the proportioning valve.. I installed it per their instructions and everything fit perfectly.. I've not had a minute's problems with it..

[samkost]

Thanks RustyPile,
Although my set up was not a kit, you have to wonder if that should have been the route taken.
My original posts were about trying to locate (which are no longer available) and replace the OE style AC Delco master cylinder.
I wanted the nice look of the cadmium plated booster but nice looking didn’t seem to cut it.
I will check back in after the phone call to the vendor POL.
Thanks again,
Sam

[RustyPile]

Here's an engine bay photo I took about a year ago for the insurance company..

[1972CheyenneSuper]

This pivot point is where my linkage was binding, I could've clearanced it some, but I was done with it after my dealings with them. After having some CPP brake stuff as well on another car which "knock on wood" has been good so far, the components are seemingly proprietary. My '62 Impala has a CPP 4 wheel disc brake kit which uses some Cadillac Eldorado rear calipers I believe and the rotors are something like a Mustang spec that's drilled out to a 4 3/4" lug pattern. This makes it nearly impossible to find replacements locally in a timely manner and forces you to buy their pieced together components. I've pretty much decided at this point to stick with stock components which I can have at my door in a couple of days and not something that will be obsolete or unavailable in 10-15 years requiring a whole new setup to replace it. The only exception would be a Wilwood or Baer setup if I ever needed something that exotic.

[samkost]

I will definitely check that lower bracket pivot point also.
I do have travel but unsure if more travel is required.
Thanks for pointing that out.
I think I may just swap boosters tomorrow and see if I can get my power assist brakes functional as they used to be before the restoration shop got their mitts on it.
I’m leaning towards a bad POL booster.
Hopefully installing the OE Moraine booster will help decide.
Thanks

[cericd]

Not that this will help correct your issue but it looks like the black booster you have is actually a Bendix unit. I know that both Bendix and Delco Moraine made boosters and combination valves for our trucks. The Bendix boosters were black and had those three, somewhat, rectangular indentations going around the face. The Delco Moraine units were cadmium plated with the triangular indentations and Delco Moraine stamped in one of the raised "plateaus." Here's my restored D/M booster for reference.

[samkost]

Thanks Cericd, you are correct Sir!
My mistake. I do have an OE Bendix booster.
I saved this photo from a past thread for reference.
My brain was conditioned (stuck) to think AC Delco Moraine because of my AC Delco Master Brake Cylinder search dilemma.
Your booster is impressive and that is what I need to do to my Bendix.
If remember correctly (maybe you?) had thread or post detailing this service shop near
Portland, Oregon?
Can you offer that brake vendor information again please.

Thanks , Sam

[cericd]

Here's a pic someone posted of a restored Bendix booster in this post.

[RustyPile]

The following may not apply to your situation.. I conducted some trial fittings when I decide to install power brakes on my truck.. As shown in the picture, I have a BBC in my truck.. Both the Delco Moraine and Bendix boosters would physically fit, but there was not enough space to remove the valve cover without moving the booster/mc first.. The smaller "dual diaphragm" unit provides lots of space for valve cover removal, plus it doesn't require a strong vacuum source.. My 454 produces only 14 - 15 hg vacuum...

[samkost]

RustyPile,
I did notice you had a big block.
I’m still running the OE rebuilt 350 V8, mild cam, Eldebrock intake and Carburetor.
I did two vacuum tests.
The first showed 20 hg and the 2nd registered 16/17 hg.
Unsure the accuracy of my vacuum gauge.
Thanks again.

[cericd]

This is the company that I bought mine from. The company has since changed hands but say they are committed to providing the same quality. Not sure if they restore Bendix units.

[samkost]

Originally Posted by cericd

This is the company that I bought mine from. The company has since changed hands but say they are committed to providing the same quality. Not sure if they restore Bendix units.

Thanks a lot for that link, cericd.

[1972CheyenneSuper]

If you end up going with a rebuilt Delco, they remove the cadmium plating during the rebuilding process and they end up with a black finish. I was kinda bummed out at first because I do like the look of the plated components, but in the end it actually blended in a little better with what I was trying to do in my engine bay. I ordered mine from Autozone just to make the core return easy and not having to ship it, but if you search the part #, pretty much anyone selling the rebuilt Delco's is getting them from the same vendor. Mine shipped from Mexico. I was going to topcoat the finish as I thought it was just going to be a cheap primer, but it's actually pretty durable and so I left it.

[samkost]

1972CheyenneSuper, that under hood photo/look is spot on…beautiful!

O.K. The latest update.
I pulled the bad POL cadmium plated booster and installed my original Bendix booster.
I first unhooked the battery.
Leaving all brake lines intact since i already bled the system, I then carefully slid the new master cylinder forward to remove the bad booster.
One concern was the pivot arm to the brake pedal adjustment. I left it alone adjustment wise.
A little finagling to line up the center pivot pin but I finally got it in. I had to brace the brake pedal down inside the cab to get the pedal arm forward and the pivot pin in.
With my meat hooks for hands it wasn’t easy to get access there for the pivot point pin and cotter pin. Only swore a couple of times
Did a couple of the pedal tests and then finally started the truck with my foot on the brake pedal. Engine started and the pedal dropped slightly (like it was suppose to). Brake pedal felt great. Pulling out of the garage I tapped the brakes and they responded perfectly.
Took it out for test drive and I had a big smile of remembering how the brakes used to feel and react.
Everything worked as it should with perfect pedal feel/travel and I now can lock up the brakes.

So out with shiney new and in with the OE old.
Very happy with the results and outcome.

Thanks to everyone for your replies and input.
I got power brakes again so I’m going for a ride now.
Thanks again,
Sam

[cericd]

Glad to hear that you got things worked out. I think that black Bendix booster and the cast prop/combination valve look great! That's one clean engine compartment you got there. Just beautiful.

[samkost]

Thanks cericd.
Just got back from a little road test trip.
Everything 100%.

[cericd]

Excellent!

[samkost]

Another Update:
I contacted Performance Online this morning about the bad cadmium brake booster I purchased.
I wasn’t expecting anything positive.
I just wanted to let them know that shiney new parts are sent out in non-working condition.
I was told that since a year has passed there is no warranty or remedy.
I’m sure they have inventory sitting on the shelves for longer.
I asked a simple pertinent question about quality assurance before shipping.
Does POL bench test your boosters or any other brake parts before selling/shipping?
Silence on their end.
I said thanks and have a nice day.
I’m guessing Chinese manufactured, sold by/in the U.S.A.
I will not recommend POL at anytime.
Thanks again guys.
Sam