Metal fillings in new rebuilt 69 350

[BLT gmc]

Well as you can imagine last night was not good. Original to truck 69 350 had a spun rod bearing and a thrust bearing failure at some time. Reputable local machine shop did all the machine work and assembled the long block. 30 over bore, stock date correct heads, roller rockers, Flat tappet hyrdualic cam.

I installed the motor and fired it up. No obvious problems. Drained the oil and changed filter. No obvious problems. Break in driving now and I notice an increasing noise valve train or lifter type. Last night I dropped the oil and filter. Lots of fine ground metal in top of filter and lots clumped to the magnetic drain. What are your thoughts? Where to start? Valve covers are off. Intake is off. No obvious source of metal yet. Ideas? Bruce

[MARKDTN]

Cam?

[Grumpy old man]

There's only 1 thought process at this point time to pull the motor and call the machine shop to pick it back up correctly assembled engines don't make metal and even the best machinist/mechanic building an engine can make a mistake .

[alsriv2]

Originally Posted by Grumpy old man

There's only 1 thought process at this point time to pull the motor and call the machine shop to pick it back up correctly assembled engines don't make metal and even the best machinist/mechanic building an engine can make a mistake .

^^^This^^^

Give the machine shop the benefit of finding out what went wrong. Sounds like the cam went south on you, but a complete disassembly is the only way to find out and fix what went wrong.

[Coley]

Yep, fully agree with the other fellers here.
Looks like something has gone south on this engine build and it can happen...so simply allow and ensure that the rebuild shop follows through on this for you.
I wouldn't start by trying to pick a fight....but I would be direct, positive and assertive that something has failed in the rebuild. You can state your expectations of them without getting their backs up.
That allows them to do the right thing....knowing you are watching and ensuring that they do...and many (most?) people and shops will follow through.
Keep us posted.
Coley

[Grumpy old man]

When rebuilding your own engine YOURSELF to save $ using a block that has already shown serious problems is a chance you take . But when your sending one out to have it rebuilt professionally you are WAY further ahead to buy even a tired/smoking RUNNING engine and start from there and since these old trucks have no vin stamped into them a year correct running engine is easy to find for a few hundred bucks when they are tired BUT RUNNING ! Personally I would rather have an engine with hard miles on it as long as it's still RUNNING as my rebuild core any day ! Also as far as a BREAK IN PERIOD on engines I build ,I RUN THEM LIKE I STOLE IT from day one if it's gonna break I want it to happen on day 1 not a week later .

[GASoline71]

Originally Posted by Grumpy old man

Also as far as a BREAK IN PERIOD on engines I build ,I RUN THEM LIKE I STOLE IT from day one if it's gonna break I want it to happen on day 1 not a week later .

Back before all this flat tappet cam failure grabage was happening... that was exactly how I was taught to break in an engine. If you wanted a mutt, you babied it on initial break in. You wanted a strong runner, you broke it in hard. Never ever did we have issues with any engine broken in that ran like a raped ape from the get go.

This "break in the cam on startup" completely sucks. But neccessary.

Gary

[GASoline71]

Originally Posted by BLT gmc

I installed the motor and fired it up. No obvious problems. Drained the oil and changed filter. No obvious problems. Break in driving now and I notice an increasing noise valve train or lifter type. Last night I dropped the oil and filter. Lots of fine ground metal in top of filter and lots clumped to the magnetic drain. What are your thoughts? Where to start? Valve covers are off. Intake is off. No obvious source of metal yet. Ideas? Bruce

When you "fired it up" did you do a cam break in procedure? Or did you fire to up, check timing, and then tstart driving it? Not many flat tappet engines need to be "broke in" the old way to seat the rings and such. With the way rings are made nowadays, they are dang near seated when driving them home in their bores.

I am pretty sure you've lost a cam lobe and it's eating lifters too. The metal will be embedded all through the engine bearings and in the oil pump and all the oil galleries. There is only one way to fix it. A complete teardown, cleaning, and overhaul. Sucks... I know... happened to me one time too.

Gary

[trac209]

Most new engine fails happen due to cam not broken in properly,and sometimes even if they are a new cam and lifters is the weakest link in a new engine startup. I do a 20 -25 min run in at 2200-2800 rpm minimum. Watching temps and oil pressure etc

[D.PASSMORE]

Pop the valve covers, look at each bottom corner of the heads where the oil drains back down into the motor. Motor oil will pool their, look for the glitter in the oil, then dip your finger in it, look at the shiney particles in the oil and on finger. If so, cam and lifter grinding. Its wipe out (Surf Music )! Thats all the eveidence you need! The machince shop needs to evaluate it, come up with the best process to Fix it.

BTW, your motor is not trashed at this point.

[Grumpy old man]

BTW, your motor is not trashed at this point.[/QUOTE]

Nope, It was trashed before he started !

[BLT gmc]

On intial fire up, I ran the motor at ~2,000 RPM until it reach normal operating temperature. I the let it idle for a short time working with the timing and looking closer for leaks under the engine. I thenhave done driving at variable speeds, RPMs, and loads. I have not do any heavy pulling/loads. I will look closer at the oil drains in the heads, and contact the machine shop. The days are getting short quickly and it is lots cooler. I am considering a roller cam if this is truly a cam issue. Is htis a good idea?Thank you for your input, Bruce

[MARKDTN]

Originally Posted by BLT gmc

On intial fire up, I ran the motor at ~2,000 RPM until it reach normal operating temperature. I the let it idle for a short time working with the timing and looking closer for leaks under the engine. I thenhave done driving at variable speeds, RPMs, and loads. I have not do any heavy pulling/loads. I will look closer at the oil drains in the heads, and contact the machine shop. The days are getting short quickly and it is lots cooler. I am considering a roller cam if this is truly a cam issue. Is htis a good idea?Thank you for your input, Bruce

Nothing wrong with a roller cam, but if the cam is what is wrong with this one the motor still has to come out and apart. If all those shavings get imbedded in the bearings, they have to be replaced. Do it like a bandaid-fast and get it over with as painlessly as possible.

[dfrank]

Originally Posted by BLT gmc

On intial fire up, I ran the motor at ~2,000 RPM until it reach normal operating temperature. I the let it idle for a short time working with the timing and looking closer for leaks under the engine. I thenhave done driving at variable speeds, RPMs, and loads. I have not do any heavy pulling/loads. I will look closer at the oil drains in the heads, and contact the machine shop. The days are getting short quickly and it is lots cooler. I am considering a roller cam if this is truly a cam issue. Is htis a good idea?Thank you for your input, Bruce

Then it is probably a wiped out cam because that is not proper break-in procedure for a flat tappet cam. A roller cam is nice since there is no break in and you don't have to run oil with zddp in it. You can just use regular dino oil or synthetic. Which ever you prefer.

[trac209]

Originally Posted by dfrank

Then it is probably a wiped out cam because that is not proper break-in procedure for a flat tappet cam. A roller cam is nice since there is no break in and you don't have to run oil with zddp in it. You can just use regular dino oil or synthetic. Which ever you prefer.

Agreed ^^^^ cam is ruined I'd wager

[BLT gmc]

no1udknow,
I primed the motor with a dumpy shaft I made from an old dist. when I was about 14. I did not see obvious metal in the heads, but it was getting dark last night. I will look closer. Definately lots of metal in the pan and filter.

[Lee H]

Can you post up a picture of the filings on the magnetic drain plug?

[GASoline71]

Originally Posted by Grumpy old man

I agree , I always use Break in oil and first start run up , When I said Run it like you stole it I'm talking about once it hits the road .

Yep... knew exactly what you meant.

Gary

[D.PASSMORE]

Flat tappet cams / lifters are fine, you just have lube, goop'em heavy with break 'in stuff recommended by manufacture. Use a good oil with a zinc additive afterwards. That's always worked for me. But, on the initial break'in set-up I never crank the rockers down or over tighten (little chatter in the morning). I go back and tighten down 1/4 to 1/2 turn after the break'in period. That's just me...

[davepl]

Never liked the old wive's tale of "if you want it to run hard break it in hard". Maybe with a flathead or something, but nothing that's been honed in the last 60 years. Cylinder wall finish and ring construction have come a long way. So if that was ever true, it sure isn't now. Maybe "if you like a lot of blowby, break it in hard".

I will say this about if it turns out to be the cam and you're worried about metal shavings: if any made it into the engine, you'll know about it soon enough. If it were me I'd let the engine tell me, unless I relied on it to get across country in the near future. It's not the right way, of course, but it depends on how nervous you are. It's really going to depend on whether the filter bypass was open when it went south. If not, the filter would catch it. If it was open (cold engine, lots of pressure) then it goes around the filter.

In addition to proper breakin procedure, is the cam ANY different than the old one? Not only do you need to check piston-to-valve clearance but you need to also check coil bind. How do I know? I wiped two cams in a row because I didn't catch that one spring was bottoming out - it had been shimmed higher than the others to obtain a certain pressure so was different.

The valve needs to be able to travel its entire path through two cycles with no binding or hitting. That's pretty obvious, but you'd be amazed how many people refuse to check it. I mean how much does playdoh and a paperclip cost?

Long story short, "balanced and blueprinted" isn't just for 80's classified ads anymore. Gotta do it.

[Grumpy old man]

[QUOTE=davepl;6866015]Never liked the old wive's tale of "if you want it to run hard break it in hard". Maybe with a flathead or something, but nothing that's been honed in the last 60 years. Cylinder wall finish and ring construction have come a long way. So if that was ever true, it sure isn't now. Maybe "if you like a lot of blowby, break it in hard".

I will say this about if it turns out to be the cam and you're worried about metal shavings: if any made it into the engine, you'll know about it soon enough. If it were me I'd let the engine tell me, unless I relied on it to get across country in the near future. It's not the right way, of course,

How do I know? I wiped two cams in a row


????

[mmiddle]

Sorry to say.... Cam is GONE. By what you said you cranked it up at 2k rmp until operating temp then idled.
There is your problem right there. I have built many engines with flat tappets and always run at 2000-2400 for 20 minutes. If any adjustments need to be made, Wait or shut it down. no exceptions!

The engine must be torn down fully cleaned and inspected. If you are lucky the cylinder walls are unhurt. New set of bearings, gaskets, cam and lifter.... your back in business. Your wallet may be thinner and pride dinged up a little, but much wiser.

Failure is the best teacher.... been there, done that
Mark

[Grumpy old man]

Wish you the best outcome ,I'm sure your elbow deep at this point have a good day !

[geezer#99]

Interesting thread!!
I gotta ask the ultimate question!
Was it hot tanked at the machine shop?

[dfrank]

Originally Posted by geezer#99

interesting thread!!
I gotta ask the ultimate question!
Was it hot tanked at the machine shop?

+1