Bad day, frustrated. Brake help please.

[67ChevyRedneck]

Thanks to all who responded to my drum thread, more on those in a bit.

My drums were a ***** to get off. I thought my truck had an adjuster slot in the back of the backing plate, but no. Both drums had the brakes wore into them and had formed a lip around them. Not fun to remove at all.

Got the driver side off. I went to advance and got drums, shoes, install kit (new springs and stuff), fluid, brake clean, and new wheel cylinders.

I get back and go to put the wheel cylinder on. Too damn big. It looks exactly like the one on the truck, but it was 1/4" too wide, it wouldn't fit between the metal wing things on the backing plate. WTF?

Go back to the store. Turns out there are 1-1/8" bore wheel cylinders and 1" ones. They didn't have any 1" ones so I bought a rebuild kit.

Back home. I'm doing this in a damn parking lot. Rebuilt the wheel cylinder and got it back in. Got the brakes in, then I went to put the new drums on.

They WOULD NOT fit over the shoes. I gently bumped them with a rubber hammer to make sure they were square. WTF again?

I look at the shoes. ****. They are different sizes. I reached back deep into my memory and it seemed somewhat familiar that they were different sizes because one side wears faster than the other, but I could not remember which. I'm actually *hoping* I have them backwards, maybe my drum will fit?

On to the drums. I bought the advance drums for $28 each. When compared to my stock one, they looked/felt pretty beefy so I bought them.

See last pic. I measured my drums diameter. I know they're supposed to be 11"x2". The brand new drum is 10-15/16-11.0" Not exactly sure with a tape measure.

My old drums are a little over 11-3/16! That's not including the area the pads gouged out on the inside.

So are my pads on wrong? Do I have the wrong pads (are they supposed to be the same thickness?) Are my drums too tight? Are there any tricks the pros use? The bottom shoe adjuster is adjusted all the way "in".

Sorry that was long. The parts stores are 20 minute trip each way with traffic. I had to clean up and quit because it got dark. Nothing fit. I've done drum brakes before. NEVER had issues like this.

Pics:

1. Passenger side. I was able to get this drum off without half ripping the brakes out. I always leave one side as a "cheat sheet" when I do drums.

2. Hard to tell, but the drums are scored badly on the inside.

3. New vs. old drum. The new drums have a very thick wall. My old drums have been turned a few times (I guess) and have much thinner walls.

4. Driver's side shoes. I have the thicker shoe on the back shoe, the E-brake shoe. Is that correct? Couldn't find anything about it through a search.

[john]

Your shoes look O.K. Secondary shoe gets the longer lining. I have never seen thicker lining on one shoe that I can think of. they are usually the same thickness.

[mr48chev]

I'm with John on that one, the shoes look ok and in the photo above John's post it appears that you have the shoes on the left side installed correctly.

From here the problem looks to be that they are not centered on the backing plate. From looking at the photo they appear to be a bit low. Slide them up (tap with hammer) so that the gap between the shoes and the lip of the backing plate is even all the way around and I think you will be able to slip the drum on.
I did brakes for a living for years and have seen some that are a booger to get centered just right to be able to get the drums on.

Also take a look at where the adjuster fits up to the shoes and make sure that the shoe is seated all the way into the slot in the adjuster. Sometimes that stuff they spray on the shoes after they work on them builds up and won't let the shoe go in the slot easily.

A couple of things that might help are to make sure that the pads that the shoes slide on on the backing plate do not have grooves worn in them. You can dress them up with a grind wheel or flap wheel in an angle grinder or even a file.b Then smear just a tad of grease on them, I use with lithium but thick wheel bearing grease would be ok. Just a slight smear though.

It looks like you have already backed the adjuster screw all the way off so that should be ok to get the drum on.

[67ChevyRedneck]

Originally Posted by mr48chev

I'm with John on that one, the shoes look ok and in the photo above John's post it appears that you have the shoes on the left side installed correctly.

From here the problem looks to be that they are not centered on the backing plate. From looking at the photo they appear to be a bit low. Slide them up (tap with hammer) so that the gap between the shoes and the lip of the backing plate is even all the way around and I think you will be able to slip the drum on.
I did brakes for a living for years and have seen some that are a booger to get centered just right to be able to get the drums on.

A couple of things that might help are to make sure that the pads that the shoes slide on on the backing plate do not have grooves worn in them. You can dress them up with a grind wheel or flap wheel in an angle grinder or even a file.b Then smear just a tad of grease on them, I use with lithium but thick wheel bearing grease would be ok. Just a slight smear though.

It looks like you have already backed the adjuster screw all the way off so that should be ok to get the drum on.

Adjuster is as tight as it will go. The shoes are snug onto the top pin. I took the pic at a downward angle. I'll try to move them around some more tomorrow.

FWIW, my old drums slip right over the shoes, but as mentioned above, their diameter is about 3/16" wider than the new drums.

[67ChevyRedneck]

Yeah, they're different.

The shorter shoe's pad is ~ 3/16" thick and the longer shoe is ~ 5/16" thick. I mounted the thicker longer shoe on the rear of the truck, the E-Brake shoe. I mounted the shorter, thinner shoe towards the front of the truck. I did this by total dumb luck. Is this correct? If they were both the same thickness (3/16") I could see my drums going on. As they are right now, the drums WILL NOT go on.

I measured my new drums again, don't have a dial caliper, but they seem to be dead on or a hair under an 11" inner diameter.

[Andy4639]

I have seen the shoes on golfcarts be off by just a little. The centering up part will get you everytime. I have also seen that the drums are the wrong size.
Put a dab of some kind of grease on the backing plates where the shoes ride.
You may want to loosen the park brake cable some to. With new shoes it may have them in a bind.

[67ChevyRedneck]

Previous owner decided that the parking brake was too complicated to fix, so he cut it out I've been too cheap/lazy to fix it. I just don't park on hills.

[mr48chev]

Yes they are in the correct positions.
Primary is the smaller/shorter one in the front and Secondary is the larger/longer one in the back. An easy way to remember is that they are the same as a 4 barrel carb with small in front large in back.

Some brands will have the same size shoes, some might have different compositions of material for primary and secondary and some will have the same size shoes but the primary will have a groove in the middle.

There is an off chance that the lining on the shoes just won't fit the drums, in that case you could take them to a brake shop and see if they can "arc" the shoes to fit the drums. you would have to take shoes and drums. That used to be standard procedure on a top flite brake job but has pretty well fallen by the wayside with the problems with asbestos dust.

[67ChevyRedneck]

After screwing with the damn things 10X longer than should ever be necessary for a drum brake job, I said to hell with the damn things and put my crappy drums back on. They simply would not fit over the shoes no matter what I did. I guess I'll have these turned to 11.05 or so (max is 11.09 on them) and redo the brakes when I get a real garage to work in. Tired of this parking lot ****. I honestly think they're not a true 11" diameter, I think they're 10-15/16" and that would be enough for my shoes to not go on. Thanks for all the help. At least I have new shoes and rebuilt wheel cylinders. I'm going to have to add a good dial caliper to my tool list.

[Andy4639]

Do you think they gave you the wrong drums? Maybe worth the trip back and getting a second set and seeing if they fit. There is a possibility they boxed them wrong!

[john]

Originally Posted by Andy4639

Do you think they gave you the wrong drums? Maybe worth the trip back and getting a second set and seeing if they fit. There is a possibility they boxed them wrong!

I would also check for the right shoes. If the shoes are the same radius, the lining should be the same thickness.

[cparman]

Andy I appreciate you pointing out that I am a DA, but in the pictures the cable and the spreader bar are still there. I was just assuming the there could still be the possibility that the remains of the cable could be in the on position. I am sure that you know best

[smoked68]

If you got them at Advance or Autogroan then you could have the wrong ones. The computer jockies at the ones here know nothing, NOTHING about anything as far as I can tell. Year make and model?? thats all they know, and don't for heavens sake have different year stuff on your truck...oy vey

[cparman]

Do you use the emergency brake ? IF you do, the problem might be that the e brake cables are not full extended. The way I would address this is to try make sure the ebrake is released fully, and then go to each wheel and pull the end of the cable and see if it moves. Been beat up on this before. Just make sure that you feel the ebrake cable is fully extended. If it is not you will have a heck of a time getting the drums on

[67ChevyRedneck]

Originally Posted by smoked68

If you got them at Advance or Autogroan then you could have the wrong ones. The computer jockies at the ones here know nothing, NOTHING about anything as far as I can tell. Year make and model?? thats all they know, and don't for heavens sake have different year stuff on your truck...oy vey

If you think about, what would any of us really know outside of our little area of expertise?

Did you know that a 99 2.2L S-10 DOES NOT have a PCV?

Did you know that a 99 Corolla DOES NOT have a replaceable fuel filter?

I cut 'em a break because if I did their job some kid would come in who knew everything about his 02 civic and I would know jack squat and he'd probably think I was a dumb ass

[b-rad]

Originally Posted by 67ChevyRedneck

If you think about, what would any of us really know outside of our little area of expertise?

Did you know that a 99 2.2L S-10 DOES NOT have a PCV?

yes i did i spent all day trying to find that thing lol

[dan42]

ebrake was removed by P.O. -

[Andy4639]

CPARMAN,
He doesn't have a parking brake check out his post after my first one.

[67ChevyRedneck]

Yes, the e-brake stuff is "there" from the backing plate to the frame, but the rest of the system is gone. It was cut and removed from under the cab. I don't even have a handle in the cab. I wouldn't begin to know how to put it back together. I could freely/easily move the little e-brake bracket on each side. You're not a DA

I compared the stock drums to my new drums. They fit over the hubs and into the backing plate perfectly (I tested them with the brakes off on the pass. side) so they should be the right ones. In terms of inner diameter, using a crappy ruler, the stock drums are 3/16-1/4" "wider" but as stated, I know they've been turned a couple of times, because the stock ones have been stretched to 11-3/16" across.

John, the shoes matched up perfectly overtop of the old shoes, just newer, thicker pads.

This is nowhere near my first drum brake job, but this is the worst one I've ever done.

I'm pulling the bed this fall and redoing the whole back half of the truck, it looks like hell under there. My trailing arm bushings aren't looking so bushy anymore And somehow my once rust free frame is coated in surface rust? Stupid 7 years in NY.

[cparman]

when it beats ya up it is usually something stupid. I am going to try and describe what I have done before:
with all of the brake parts installed, take two prybars, and catch them on the lip of the brake backing plate, and try and push the brake shoes together. The remains of the e brake cable might have been the PO's problem, and IF you push the shoes together It might push the remains of the ebrake stuff to the off position. MY 2 cents worth

[Andy4639]

Hate you had all this trouble. Can you not return the drums? I wouldn't turn them. I would return them and use the money towards the ones you buy at the meet or Charlotte.

[67ChevyRedneck]

I don't know. They kinda got pushed along the pavement, I actually got the DS on, but had to pull it off because it was dragging badly... I think I'm stuck with them. They don't look NIB anymore Lesson learned This is definitely one of my cheaper screw ups.

My Silverado is starting to need brakes badly too, they have 118K on them. It has disc/disc, I'm actually looking forward to doing them compared to this

[Andy4639]

I know all about screwing up.
Well then if that's the case. I guess that's the best thing to do.

[mikeoj]

67chevyredneck,I was a brake mechanic for many years before getting out of the business.To start with make sure the drum is correct(Compare to old,Inside dia.,inside drum width).Next take new shoes and place in new drum(Is the shoe vs drum radius the same?)Next make sure the emergency brake cable is disconnected from the arm(cut the cable where it comes thru the backing plate,Put new cables in later,This is important)Always use new hardware(springs)Last but not least,can brake shoes vary in thickness,Absolutely. Good luck,need any thing else,just ask! Mike

[67ChevyRedneck]

Thanks bud! Those are great tips. And thanks to everyone else! I needed to vent as much as I needed the help!

I'm "done" with her for now, but I'm bookmarking this thread for later.