My new smaller starter is grinding with shims

[1970pelle]

With my new GM crate engine install, I also went with the smaller late model Tahoe starter. Without any shims it was noisey, added one shim. No change, added all three from the pack. Still have the noise. What I'm I missing here ?
I have a new flex plate, flex plate bolts, I'm using the OEM starter bolts. The dust shield fits without any issues.


Ken

[Dannyboy1966]

I got mine new from Autozone it is a Duralast, and it made a funny noise to start with to, I tried a second one, same thing, after a couple months it had quit making the noise, I don't know what the hell it was.

[franken]

Why not disconnect the big + cable from the starter, pull the cover and look at it with the solenoid engaged?

[bmchevy1979]

In some cases there is too much clearance between the flywheel and starter I had to machine .015 off the top of my last starter in my K5 so you need to check the clearance you could try shimming the outside bolt with one shim I don't like doing this as I believe it contributes to the ear being broken off the block but it will give you an idea if you don't have access to flywheel

[69heavychevy]

I went to the smaller gear reduction starter because its not "suppose" to require shims and because overall its a better design...
The first starter didn't require any but after a few months I had to add a shim due to it starting to grind. Every month or so I had to add a shim until it could no longer be shimmed. After that I took it to Autozone to swap it out for another one.
I did this whole song and dance with three more starters...I eventually gave in and went back to the original gargantuan starter. Didn't require shimming, and its been about 4 months of trouble free operation.

[SkinnyG]

I am running a newer factory gear-reduction starter. The documents said it didn't require any shims. It has some awful grinding noises.

In fact, the first one was really noisy, and then eventually stuck "on" and I had to cut cables to shut it off. The next one was super noisy out of the box. This one I tried shims and tried no shims and measured clearance, and I can't shut it up. So I just try to ignore it (but I cringe inside every time).

[tucsonjwt]

I have an 83 big block 454. It has a heat soak problem when the engine is hot - the stock starter won't work. So, I had a genuine GM red bow tie high torque mini starter installed. It would start when hot, but the starter was slow to turn the engine over when hot. When starting a cold engine, it made a high pitched whine sound if the engine did not start on the first attempt, and I had to wait a few seconds until the starter stopped turning before I could attempt a restart.

I then had an Hitachi high torque mini starter installed - no high pitched whine but occasionally I get a grinding noise or loud whine on starting -with engine either hot or cold. I had it back to the auto electric shop who installed both starters. They shimmed and re-shimmed several times. They still got occasional intermittent grinding sound. They have no fix. They are the best electrical shop around, so I guess there is no fix. I hope I am not damaging the flywheel with the occasional grinding. I just had the clutch replaced and the flywheel resurfaced.

[SkinnyG]

I ran the noisy starters for almost two years - no damage to the flexplate that I could see (I replaced the flexplate because it was cracked - unrelated).

[tucsonjwt]

That is good to know SkinnyG - One thing I can check off my list of worries on the old beast.

[1970pelle]

After reading everyone's response, and thinking hard on what franken suggested. I'm starting to think its a issue of the bendix coming out to far during the starter engagement. Not the bendix teeth going to deep into the flex plate teeth. But the bendix coming out to far and rubbing on the flex plate its self. The fix may be adding a washer/shim to the starter shaft the bendix rides on. To stop it from coming out so far. Make any sense ?

[1970pelle]

I figured it out and fixed mine. After laying on the floor looking everything over and not seeing anything wrong. I decided to paint the teeth on the flex plate and crank the engine over to see whats happening. I slipped back under the truck and started to rotate the flex plate with a big screw driver held against the starter and walk the flex plate around. When I put pressure on the starter it moved. I knew it was tight, how could it move. I took the bolts loose and checked the length of the starter bolts. There about a inch to long, there not holding the starter tight to the engine block.
I don't have the correct size on hand, so for now I added 4 lock washers and tried it. No more noise. So when doing a starter change get the correct bolts to go along with the starter.

Ken

[motornut]

my 78 had a grinding prob when I got it,
tried shims and a few stock type starters,still a prob.
rotated from underneath felt the flexplate was worn.
It was more apparent out when it's compared to the new one.
I still find it noisy,shims didn't help,but it's a few years,seems better,not worse.

[piecesparts]

When I install a starter, I take the solenoid off and then use the slide to engage the starter gear into the flywheel. I then measure the depth of engagement that the starter gear teeth have into the flywheel or flexplate, with a wire gauge. It should be about the diameter of a large paperclip. Once I find the need for either shims or metal removal from the starter housing, then I put the starter back together and connect it up to the battery.

[1970pelle]

Wouldn't it be a whole lot easier to paint the teeth with the same type paint used when setting up a ring & pinion. I think you would achieve the same results over tearing things down. The tolerances are not that close from the manufacturer.
Most of these type issues are created our being in a hurry, not watching everything close enough. Human error.


Ken ( and I'm not perfect)

[72bowtiestepper]

In my experience....the small mini starters are the ones that give me problems. The good old large AC Delco ones are less headaches.

[BLE 'BURBAN]

The best way I have found to shim a starter takes a bit of time but I have found that taking this extra time eliminates alot of headaches later on and longer starter life as well.

1. Disconnect the battery.
2. Remove flexplate dust shield from bottom of tranny.
3. Remove the starter from engine.
4. Remove starter solenoid from starter.
5. Remount starter WITHOUT the solenoid to then engine.
6. Reach up and pull back on the plunger to move the starter drive gear into the teeth of the flexplate.
7. Using a wire feeler gauge measure the gap between the tip (crest) of the tooth on the drive gear and the bottom(valley) of the teeth on the flex plate. It should be no more than .060" NOTE; A large paper clip works well for this measurement if you don't have a wire style feeler gauge
8. If it's right, put it all back together then you're good to go. However if it's too tight or too loose, then you will need to shim it.
9. If it's too tight start with a shim that's .015" thick and shim both mounting points between the starter and block then measure again. If it's too loose then shim out ONLY the outer mounting bolt to cause the starter to tilt into the block.
10. Play around with the shimming until you achieve the proper gap of .060"
whether it's by no-shim ,full shim or half shim on either bolt.
11. Once you've got it set put'er all back together and drive on.
Yes it is time consuming and tedious but you will be pleased with the end result.

[jjzepplin]

I had a CSI mini starter for years and the drive finally went bad. I did not notice but was in a hurry so I just went to Autozone and picked up a stock unit and used the rear support bracket and installed a solenoid on my firewall.
I found my timing was a bit too far advanced and once backed off a little.
That thing starts soooo nice now with absolutely no grinding at all.
That second battery and solenoid to it for starting doesn't hurt either.
Hot starting problem is also removed.
No more cringing. Using Wally World $60 deep cycle Batts.

[50bomb]

I have a v8 305 in my 64 c10.....Yea I am not happy with my Delco remy mini starter. Ever since I put installed it the starter sometimes makes a loud noise and does not start. I give it a couple more clicks then after that it starts up and works fine. I bought it at an old time auto shop that compared it to my old heavy starter. I wanted a mini torque but nothing crazy. they said this would work. I didnt get any shims with it cause they kept the box for the old starter. DO you think I need shims? Or could I possibly use extra washers to maybe help it out? I did have to put washers already for the bolts cause they were long and there was to much play the first time around. This is my daily driver so its really annoying me. Makes a seen when I start it up. Hate it.

[tucsonjwt]

I replaced the Hitachi long bolts on my 83 BB and used the stock bolts. Still have the intermittent squeal/grind on the starter.

[50bomb]

well I took off my remy mini torque today to find that one of the bolt holes fell off at the corner. SO im out $170 GGRRRRRR!!! AND NO I did NOT over tie. only snug them. Never buying a mini torque again. Going to napa and buying the Oem style it should have!

[1970pelle]

I really doubt the starter caused the corner piece to break off. The issue I had found with using the mini starters was to make sure you use the correct bolts. The bolts for the OEM Dinosaur starter are to long for the later model mini starter. By using these bolts I was able to find to source of the noise at start up.
Get the correct bolts and you won't have any more trouble.

[50bomb]

I used washers for them but anyways it was not the correct starter for my truck. Parts store that supposely been in business for 60 years didnt match it up correctly and would not take it back (note that even before it was crack they would not refund me) so either way I am out the cash. Bought the period correct delco remy from Napa and all is good again. NO more mini starters for me.

[starterman99]

The mini starters like the newer oem delco units have metric mounting bolt holes. Pre 1979 full size starters had standard 3/8 mounting bolt holes and a long solenoid. After 1980 the full size starters used metric mounting bolt holes and a shorter solenoid. the thread in the block is 3/8 x 16 the starter bolts are different for pre 79 starters as the knurled portion of the bolt where it goes into the block is only 3/8 inch the 1980 and later bolts have a step in the knurl for the metric mount on the starter to the 3/8 standard size in the block. The mini starters use shorter bolts overall so you need to make sure the bolts fit snug in the mounting portion of the starter so it can dowel the starter to the block to prevent any movement during cranking that would change the pinion to flywheel clearance when starting causing noise and or grinding. worn or bent starter bolts cause a lot of pinion to flywheel clearance problems.

[tucsonjwt]

To clarify, the second pair of bolts I used were about one inch shorter than the bolts that were in it. The previous bolts replaced were from the GM high torque red bowtie mini starter, which I still have and may reinstall again.

[durty harry]

I have used a the small high torque big block starters on all my small blocks and have never had any problems with grinding or breaking .
They have all been for the 90 big block with 168 tooth flywheel , staggered bolt pattern , stock bolts with 2 shims