another 700r4 or 200r4 in 67-72 trucks question.

[Pont406]

I see more and more swaps to overdrive trans on here. I want to try one myself. I see used 700r4 trans for anywhere from $150-500 range. Did anyone install a used overdrive trans and got away with it for a while? I see rebuilt trans for over a grand and I can buy lots of gas for a grand. So who is running a used one and how many miles on it now?

[67_C-30]

I'd recommend 200-4R for you Serge. First all, no 700 ever came with a BOP pattern, so you'd have to use an adaptor. Most 200's came with a GM corporate case with Chevy and BOP pattern. Secondly, with a few minor tweaks, the 200's are stronger and have a better gearset. The low first gear of the 700 is less than desireable for performane applications. The 200 is basically geared like TH350 with a .67 : 1 OD. You can run 4.10's with a 200 and still have useable first gear, and higher .67 : 1 OD still lets it be fairly good on highway. Another plus is that if you running a short tail TH350, you won't have to change the driveshaft to in a 200. Here's a good article on the 200.

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...ild/index.html

[67_C-30]

Oh, and to answer your question, I have put in used OD's and got away with it, but that Poncho you have is pretty torquey, and would be capable of tearing up a 200 or a 700 pretty easy in stock form.

[spinning wheels]

I purchased one from a local yank and save wrecking yard. I got it for $80 during their 1/2 day sale. I have not installed it yet, as I couldn't get the d*#n torque converter off the flex plate.

Depending on which trans you have now, you will most likely need to have your drive shaft shortened. A good driveshaft shop can do this and is very common.

The parts for the 700r4 cost less and are easier to find than the 200r4.

Both are good trannys, both can be modified to hold up under a stock or mildly built V8.


I was dead set on a 200r4, until my friend talked me into getting a 700r4. He used to own a trans shop in Flagstaff, AZ. He had to sell the shop when he bacame allergic to solvents.

As he put it, the 700r4 are designed from the start to be an OD trans, as opposed to the 200r4.

The low first gear on the 700r4, makes it great for getting out of the hole, or if you have a heavy vehicle. The 700r4 also has the highest OD gear ratio of the two.

If you do decide on the 700r4, try to get one from the late 80's. The 4L60 is very similar to the 700r4, but it is electronic and you would need a stand alone computer to make it work.

The 200r4 is a modified T200 trans which were originally designed for the Chevy Chevette. One of the best cars to come with a 200r4 was the Buick Grand National. But that trans is rare and usually goes for top dollar, unless you luck out and the person sells it without knowing what he has.

Pont406, what are you planning on installing the trans into?

[LEEVON]

I'm 1 for 2 on used 700R4's. Next time I would find one I know for sure drove until it was yanked. Buyer beware, but I agree that for the $100-200 you see them for on Craigslist all the time it's more about your time if one bombs.

[67_C-30]

Originally Posted by spinning wheels

I purchased one from a local yank and save wrecking yard. I got it for $80 during their 1/2 day sale. I have not installed it yet, as I couldn't get the d*#n torque converter off the flex plate.

Depending on which trans you have now, you will most likely need to have your drive shaft shortened. A good driveshaft shop can do this and is very common.

The parts for the 700r4 cost less and are easier to find than the 200r4.

Both are good trannys, both can be modified to hold up under a stock or mildly built V8.


I was dead set on a 200r4, until my friend talked me into getting a 700r4. He used to own a trans shop in Flagstaff, AZ. He had to sell the shop when he bacame allergic to solvents.

As he put it, the 700r4 are designed from the start to be an OD trans, as opposed to the 200r4.

The low first gear on the 700r4, makes it great for getting out of the hole, or if you have a heavy vehicle. The 700r4 also has the highest OD gear ratio of the two.

If you do decide on the 700r4, try to get one from the late 80's. The 4L60 is very similar to the 700r4, but it is electronic and you would need a stand alone computer to make it work.

The 200r4 is a modified T200 trans which were originally designed for the Chevy Chevette. One of the best cars to come with a 200r4 was the Buick Grand National. But that trans is rare and usually goes for top dollar, unless you luck out and the person sells it without knowing what he has.

Pont406, what are you planning on installing the trans into?

Parts are plentiful and cheap for both as both of were put in hundreds of thousands of GM vehicles. The 700 might have been designed to be OD from the get go, but the 200 is still stronger and the overwhelming choice of drag racers that want OD trannys. Its not really expensive to make any 200 strong, so I wouldn't the waste extra money on Buick GM or T Type tranny. There's not all that much difference in them anyway. Also, the 200 has the higher OD. The 700 is .70 : 1 and the 200 is .067 : 1, although the difference is nominal. If you read that article I posted above, Art Carr explains why the he prefers the 200 over the 700 for high HP applications.

While it is true that the 700-R4 is also analog and rebuildable cores are priced as low as the TH200-4R, it has a fatal flaw in the form of a weak input shaft and drum assembly. Its lightweight aluminum construction limits capacity to around 500 hp, less if the car is heavy.

The hassle is the drum is a very complex part and so far nobody has invested in the tooling required to manufacture a superior aftermarket replacement. On the other hand, the 200-4R is free of this inherent deal breakers.

Both are good transmissions, but Pont406 is going to putting it in a truck with 400 Pontiac that putting out around 425 ft lbs at the crank (342 ft lb at rear wheels) and I think it would cheaper in long run to go ahead and go with a 200, and do the mods that is recommended to keep it alive.

[texanidiot25]

Originally Posted by 67_C-30

The low first gear of the 700 is less than desireable for performane applications.

Gotta say, if it was so bad I don't think they'd still be using a similar setup in their current 4L60E, nearly 30 years later. Nothing wrong with a short gear to get a heavy truck moving fast. That 1st gear made my V6 1990 Firebird feel like champ until 40mph when it finally shifted. Nicely geared for loads of stump pulling torque too. The 1-2 shift is a good drop, but our V8s sit here and make all their power and torque in the mid range so it doesn't hurt them much.

[Pl4yboy]

Originally Posted by texanidiot25

Gotta say, if it was so bad I don't think they'd still be using a similar setup in their current 4L60E, nearly 30 years later. Nothing wrong with a short gear to get a heavy truck moving fast. That 1st gear made my V6 1990 Firebird feel like champ until 40mph when it finally shifted. Nicely geared for loads of stump pulling torque too. The 1-2 shift is a good drop, but our V8s sit here and make all their power and torque in the mid range so it doesn't hurt them much.

The 4L60e is the bigges piece of garbage GM ever put in a truck TBH. Under stock conditions, they're fine. But as soon as you go to putting a little bit extra uner the hood, they're toast. I'm a very active member at LS1Truck and one of the first things you should do to save money is upgrade to a LVL 5 4L60 if you plan on keeping it. If not, switch to a 4L80e (TH400 successor) as soon as possible.

[spinning wheels]

Yep, I agree with texanidiot25.

Most of the drag racers that I know run highly modified powerglides.

My friend that used to own the trans shop in Flagstaff. Drives his '72 Nova down to Phoenix, changes the rear tires and runs the SBC Nova at the strip. It runs in the low 13s. Changes the tires back to highway street tires and drive back up the mountain road. He has had the same trans for many years.

Most racers try to run something a little different from their competitors with the hopes that their setup gives them a slight edge. Saying that one trans is much better over another trans, is like splitting hairs, (not talking about stock trannys here).

My brother ran a powerglide in his '67 camaro with a 600+ hp BBC.
Now his building an aluminum SBC for his '40 Willys, and his going to try out a built Mopar torqueflight. Go figure!

Art Carr loves the 200r4. Hughes loves powerglides, and the list goes on and on.

I guess a lot depends on how you plan on driving your car/truck. If it doesn't workout right, try something else

[67_C-30]

Originally Posted by spinning wheels

Yep, I agree with texanidiot25.

Most of the drag racers that I know run highly modified powerglides.

My friend that used to own the trans shop in Flagstaff. Drives his '72 Nova down to Phoenix, changes the rear tires and runs the SBC Nova at the strip. It runs in the low 13s. Changes the tires back to highway street tires and drive back up the mountain road. He has had the same trans for many years.

Most racers try to run something a little different from their competitors with the hopes that their setup gives them a slight edge. Saying that one trans is much better over another trans, is like splitting hairs, (not talking about stock trannys here).

My brother ran a powerglide in his '67 camaro with a 600+ hp BBC.
Now his building an aluminum SBC for his '40 Willys, and his going to try out a built Mopar torqueflight. Go figure!

Art Carr loves the 200r4. Hughes loves powerglides, and the list goes on and on.

I guess a lot depends on how you plan on driving your car/truck. If it doesn't workout right, try something else

Oh, I totally agree. Its all subjective. Art Carr prefers Glides too, but when someone wants a drag car with a OD, he prefers a 200. If I were building another drag car (strictly drag) I would have another Glide myself. However, If I wanted a street/strip car that I planned on driving on the highway, it would have 200!

[67_C-30]

Originally Posted by texanidiot25

Gotta say, if it was so bad I don't think they'd still be using a similar setup in their current 4L60E, nearly 30 years later. Nothing wrong with a short gear to get a heavy truck moving fast. That 1st gear made my V6 1990 Firebird feel like champ until 40mph when it finally shifted. Nicely geared for loads of stump pulling torque too. The 1-2 shift is a good drop, but our V8s sit here and make all their power and torque in the mid range so it doesn't hurt them much.

They are good for what they are. They are good transmission for a stock vehicle with moderate gear ratios. I guess, I should be a little clearer on what I'm saying. I spend 15 years drag racing and that's what I'm basing my experience off of. When the 4L60/700 is used as drag racing transmission, the low 1st gear is a bad thing. If you put 4.10's or 4.56's in the car/truck with a healthy converter, the 1st gear shifts pretty much as soon as the converter locks up and it hurts 60' times tremendously. Its causes a 46% drop in RPM, and on drag engine with a big cam, intake and heads that gets you out of the desired RPM range. The 200-4R is better and stronger for that application, and I know Pont406 does some racing, and I stand by the fact the 200 would be a better transmission for that. A 700/4L60 is a great transmission for anything from a station wagon to a quick street car, and would be adequate for almost anything out there. For myself, however, I know that 200's are stronger and I prefer the gear spacing over the 700. I've had a couple of 5.7 IROC's, a couple 305 Camaros, a '91 Formula 350, and tons of trucks with them, and they are OK, but that low first gear followed by the falling-on-it's-head-2nd-drop annoys the crap out of me! It was a band-aid to the high rear end gears they were putting in those cars when it came. GM finally got smart in the late 90's, and starting putting lower gear ratios in new cars and trucks. It results in a better performance and better mileage. The earliers ones had too much overdrive and actually needed that low first gear.

I never intended to start a p$$ing maych with anybody, and I apologize if that's what it sounds like. Pont406 has a Pontiac engine, so figured in the fact that he'd have to buy a adaptor plate to mount a 700 and the fact is taking his truck to the dyno and racing it makes the 200 a no-brainer IMO.

[texanidiot25]

I'm not going on about strength, I'm going on about the gearing. I wouldn't be surprised if the 4T60E used a similar gear pattern either.

[Pont406]

Looks like I'll be checking out local junkyards next weekend. I want to keep 4.10 gears, it's fun on the street. On the freeway it's sux big time. 3500 rpm and up temp gauge keeps creeping up. Does it matter if 200r4 from a 6 or 8cyl vehicle?

[spinning wheels]

Pont406...... Long Beach swap meet is this sunday. I haven't been to one in a while, I was told it is not as good as it used to be.

[67_C-30]

Originally Posted by Pont406

Looks like I'll be checking out local junkyards next weekend. I want to keep 4.10 gears, it's fun on the street. On the freeway it's sux big time. 3500 rpm and up temp gauge keeps creeping up. Does it matter if 200r4 from a 6 or 8cyl vehicle?

Well, if its from 3.8L or 4.3L V6 car it wouldn't because it would have both patterns. I would try to find a V8 tranny though, because you know there would be no issues. GM never made a car besides the Camaro and Vette that had a 700, so any 80's - early 90's Caprice, Monte Carlo, Malibu, Olds Delta 88 and Cutlass, Pontiac Parisienne, Grand Prix and Bonneville or Buick Regal/GN and LaSabre with an OD tranny will all have the 200. They are ysually very easy to find.

[tdave00]

Originally Posted by 67_C-30

Well, if its from 3.8L or 4.3L V6 car it wouldn't because it would have both patterns. I would try to find a V8 tranny though, because you know there would be no issues. GM never made a car besides the Camaro and Vette that had a 700, so any 80's - early 90's Caprice, Monte Carlo, Malibu, Olds Delta 88 and Cutlass, Pontiac Parisienne, Grand Prix and Bonneville or Buick Regal/GN and LaSabre with an OD tranny will all have the 200. They are ysually very easy to find.

My 700r4 came out of a 89 Firebird.

[Gray Ghost]

Remember guys...Art Carr doesn't start with your average 200...he uses parts from the buick GN version...rare and $$$$. Your run of the mill 200 is much weaker than the average 700. I went through two of 'em [both 'built' by a reputable shop] behind mild crate motor.

[67_C-30]

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost

Remember guys...Art Carr doesn't start with your average 200...he uses parts from the buick GN version...rare and $$$$. Your run of the mill 200 is much weaker than the average 700. I went through two of 'em [both 'built' by a reputable shop] behind mild crate motor.

No, he doesn't. There isn't that much difference between the 2. He uses a heat treated stator support and heat treated and annealed intermediate drum assembly. Those are the biggest weak points, but even then they will support 450 - 500 HP without them, if properly built. Those parts are the same in a regular 200 and GN transmission. The clutches, the servo, and governor are the main difference between a regular 200 and GN 200. I've broke 700's behind 305's so in stock form, both are subject to failure. Either will have trouble living behind the torque that Popntiac is making in stock form.

[texanidiot25]

It's all good, I'm just defending the 700 here

In my case, I have 4.1x or 3.9x rear gears (what ever Dana 60s had), and the 700s short 1st would make it a hard pulling mofo on the street and when towing/hauling. IMO, with a less radical set of gears or 3.73s the 700 is a sweet street setup or for a daily driver.

[Pont406]

From what I heard a good controller alone for 4l80e runs about $1000. 200r4 or 700r4 will do ok for a dailly driver truck.

[tdave00]

Sounds like both of you guys know your stuff. You just have different tastes .