late 80 tuned port inj swap in 72 info needed

[dukcaln]

so I can pick up a complete engine and tranny with ecu and harness for very cheap from a guy I know, had 89000 miles when taken out and ran good. What would it take to swap it into my 72 c10. I think motor mounts, drive shaft and fuse box I guess, what else would it take or are things that would have to be done. I can pull all the smogg stuff of right. I will not be running a/c

[dukcaln]

anybody

[Andy4639]

New gas tank sender with proper returns and feeds. Electric pump intank is perfered. No smog stuff need for the year truck. Well on the East side of the country anyway.
I'd do away with the mass senor and do a map senor. That's what mine is.
Had to shorten the drive shaft for the 700 R4 and move the trans mount back in the frame.

Talk to Street and Performance in AZ they will help you out.

[ls1nova71]

I agree with Andy4639, definitely get rid of the MAF and run a speed density tune if it isn't already. By the pics I can tell it's at least an 87. If I remember correctly the SD started in '89. If it has a MAP sensor bolted to the right side of the upper plenum then you're already there. If not you'll need a ECM with the part number 1227730, they can be found in the jy in late 80's v6 cavaliers, corsicas and berettas among others. You will also need a chip custom burned to your specs. e wiring harness that comes with the engine in TPI cars is hard to make. "Stand alone" due to the fact that the whole under hood harness is integreted into it. It can be done, but these days there are so many companies that make harnesses its hardly worth the effort to save a 25 year old harness. Also if your engine originally had a MAF then to run the SD ecm you need a different harness anyway. MAFs on the older cars used burn off relays and the MAFs are known to be problematic, but when they work they work great, just trying to save you a headache. As for where to buy a harness, shop around. Not knocking S and P, but they're probably the most expensive place you could go. Painless I thiris probably cheaper and just as good of quality. Shop around and do your homework, and a TPI swap really isn't hard at all. Good luck and if you have any specific questions, just ask and I'll help ahyway I can.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Andy4639]

I'm not a promoter for S&P but they were the only people back in 1990 that did this kind of stuff. They helped me out a lot.
I'm running their wiring with chip and a V-6 Ferrio computer.
Yes as ls1nova71 stated their are all kinds of buisness now doing this and I'm sure they are cheaper ones out there.
I just know first hand about S&P so they get my vote.

I agree with ls1nova71 they factory wiring is a lot of work for what you get out of it. Buy a harness it's worth every penny.
Make sure you have the 700 R4 built and have the corvette clutches installed. B&M makes a kit for the 700R4. Mine is going on over 20 years without a rebuild.
The motor has a little over 200,000 on it now.

[dukcaln]

thanks guys, I think I am going to pull the trigger and pick up the set up..... so if I understand it, I think the guy said it was an 87, I need a new tank with sending unit inside and return lines, ditch the in cab tank, move the tranny brackets, shorten the drive line, buy a harnes and run some kind of aftermarket tune? Anything else

[Andy4639]

If you haven't already done the resister wire to the distributor that will need to be changed. You need full 12 volts when cranking the motor. If you have the cold start injector on the motor just leave it alone no need for it.
I have no EGR valve either or knock senor. But as stated I have a wiring harness for my motor.
If you don't want to change tanks I have seen a small gas box built to hold the sendor which you mount to the frame and run the return to it and it gravity feeds out of the stock tank. This requires a hole being drilled in the stock tank and the line installed.

[eurospec1]

These days that TPI is such a bad swap for the effort involved, if your going to go through all the effort and spend the money to convert to a newer efi engine, why swap to a subpar tune port motor when the newer LS based truck engines are so plentiful these days?

[classicchev]

Originally Posted by eurospec1

These days that TPI is such a bad swap for the effort involved, if your going to go through all the effort and spend the money to convert to a newer efi engine, why swap to a subpar tune port motor when the newer LS based truck engines are so plentiful these days?

Even though I have a TPI in one of my trucks, I agree. the only reason I stuffed it in was because I had it and wanted it off the stand.

It looks great in the engine bay, I think better then the LS engines, but you get way more out of a LS .

Whats so bad about Mass Air??? At least it will learn a little if you change things up, SD has to be retuned after any changes like headers, cam etc?

[Ackattack]

Originally Posted by eurospec1

These days that TPI is such a bad swap for the effort involved, if your going to go through all the effort and spend the money to convert to a newer efi engine, why swap to a subpar tune port motor when the newer LS based truck engines are so plentiful these days?

I had a tpi 350 in my 72. The swap was pretty easy, but I was really disapointed in how it ran. When it came time to do a frame off restoration I thought long and hard about my options. I ended up selling the 72 to pay for a portion of my 68. 5.3L is SO much better than the tpi engine in every aspect.

On my TPI truck, I ran the stock fuel tank with a frame mounted fuel pump. Ran fine as long as you didn't run the tank too low on fuel. Mine was a MAF engine too. I used a painless wiring harness, and as long as you read the directions carefully it was pretty easy. I say carefully, cause I messed the part where the power wire to the ECM needed power in both run AND start.

That being said, I'm hopefully going to finish up my TBI swap into my 69 tonight....but that's a bit off topic.

[fasttech]

Just finished a carb to TPI conversion on my 67 GMC last year. I have been happy with the results so far. Always starts on the first crank no matter the temp or how long it's been sitting. Also a little better on gas mileage.

I agree with the advice from the other posters. I figured using the stock gas tank with an external pump would be a problem like Ackattack described so I installed a custom rear mounted tank from No Limit with a build in pump and anti-slosh baffling. Would recommend going this way for any fuel injected setup.

If you are planning to delete all the smog stuff you will need a custom chip to at least turn off programming for the air pump, EGR, VATS (anti-theft), etc. If you don't the engine will never run the way you want and constantly throw error codes. I use a Moates Ostrich EPROM that allows me to make any tuning change on the fly (even while engine is running) and permanently save the modified bin. You don't need to go this far but you will need the minimum changes made on the chip.

I highly recommend a code scanner to help diagnose any problems. I use TunerPro with my laptop, but any OBDI hand held scanner works fine.

If you plan to run headers you will need to use a heated O2 sensor. GM part number 191789593 for a 95 S10 4.3L TBI. Requires a 12v source. I pulled mine from the fuel pump relay +12.

That looks like a 700R4 in the pic. If you plan to use use this trans you will need to work out the wiring at your shifter so the computer knows when you are in Park vs Drive. I think Painless sells a kit for this but I figured out my own using relays and a diode. Without this my truck would sometimes stall shifting from Park to Drive and back.

As you can see in the attached pic I had to come up with a custom upper radiator hose. As I recall the stock water pump on a TPI motor doesn't have a fitting for the heater hose. I have seen a lower radiator hose adapter that fixes this, just can't remember who sells it.

Lastly if you want to get deep into TPI customization you will want to check out thirdgen.org. I hate to send you to a different message board but these are all camaro and vette guys who know TPIs inside and out.

Good luck.

[dukcaln]

my plans are to only take the exsisting tpi motor above in picture and drop it right into the truck with the 700r4 tranny. Minus the a/c stuff and any and all of the smog stuff I can take off. No headers.. keeping power steering and such.. so I am hoping it is a straight forward swap. like I said to, it comes with the ecm and harness..

[eurospec1]

Originally Posted by dukcaln

my plans are to only take the exsisting tpi motor above in picture and drop it right into the truck with the 700r4 tranny. Minus the a/c stuff and any and all of the smog stuff I can take off. No headers.. keeping power steering and such.. so I am hoping it is a straight forward swap. like I said to, it comes with the ecm and harness..

Ya, but all the work you will have to do, fuel system, electronics, ETC for a motor that is notoriously unreliable, and under powered makes no sense, if your gonna do all the same amount of work, spend a little bit more upfront and get one of the newer 5.3 LS truck engines. Hell the money you will save in gas mileage alone with the LS motor will pay for the price difference in no time.

[Rooster's 67]

dukcaln,
Not living in cali but hearing and reading about nightmares with CA DMV and your smog/emissions requirements, It would behoove you to make sure you know what requirements your state put on vehicles with newer motors. You may not be able to "Dump" all the emissions. Just food for thought, hate to see you go thru all the energy and money to do a swap then have issues with the state.

[Andy4639]

The energy is the owners and doesn't cost anything. The LS motor would be at least $2500. Unless you know a yard owner or a friend who just wrecked his truck. He already has the motor so it's cost effective for him.
As being a waste I'd have to disagree with that also. The engine is Fuel Injected so it's worth the time over a 40 year old 305 or 350.

The Mass air senors for the older TPI are OK just not cost effective for these swaps.

[dukcaln]

well, as for california, it is pre-smog 75 or older, so there is no smog requirements at all. So I can put anything in it...LOL

as for the engine, I can pick up the tranny and engine, ecm and harness for $800 but there is room to wiggle it down some what too...

rated on a scale of 1-10, 10 being difficult what is this swap considered?

[dukcaln]

come to think of it has anybody did a swap thread on this with similar year motor and pre smogged truck on here..... it just seems like it might be a fairly mild swap with some work to be done, but very accomplishable

[Andy4639]

The swap is a 6 maybe a 7 if you don't have a clue what to do and don't have all of us for help. Back in 90 when I did mine I was on my own except for S&P.
Go for it. It's all in how you look at it if it's worth it.

I have the lines and all ready installed and I wouldn't go to a LS unless this motor blows up then maybe I would do it.

[dukcaln]

I am pretty sure I am going to tackle this, going to deal with the guy on monday.. thanks all

[pat386]

I saw Street and Performance mentioned, and my 83 had a TPI swap done in 95 with their harness, and it still is alive and well today.
Posted via Mobile Device

[eurospec1]

Take out 5.3 and 4l60e combos can be had in the 1500$ range, and difficulty in swapping it is going I be right about the same as that tpi, and it has become such a common swap that you will find a ton of more info and tech support for the 5.3.
Ultimately it's your call, but In my experience it's alot of work for something you will be dissapointed with. Low power, low support, low reliability seems like a bad option.
Posted via Mobile Device

[dukcaln]

after really thinking about it tonight, I think I am going to buy just the 700r4 and instal that then I am going to change to a different carb and intake set up... I think with my motor mods I will like the power of the new carb and intake setup and tranny combo. I thank you all very much for your honest post

[fasttech]

Always better to know what you are getting into before you pull the trigger. There can be a huge learning curve if you don't have experience with electronic engine management. For me it was well worth it, and I wouldn't go back to my old carb setup.
Keep in mind the 700R is looking for a computer to tell it when to lock up the coverter. You will need to buy a kit to take the place of this, or hard wire it to lock as soon as it goes into 4th and disables when you press the brake. Ran mine this way when I had a carb setup.
Posted via Mobile Device

[dukcaln]

ok thanks, I did know about the kit.... I picked up the tranny for $200.... got a nice dual plane manifold and new carb set up in mind,, I guess when I thought about it more I just didnt want to do it since the motor in my truck was just built last year and has less than 1000 miles on it....

[MARKDTN]

Following is information on TPI swap in a 68-82 Corvette, however much of it is applicable to a 67-72 truck. The big difference is the fuel tank. If you don't mind the tank behind the seat, you can use a stock tank and the Ford external pump. The truck I did was a short bed for someone else and he wanted the tank out of the cab. I looked into a 87 truck TBI tank and I think it had clearance issues with the rear suspension (might work on a long bed). I used an '86 S10 Blazer tank from a 2.8TBI vehicle. I even used the fuel lines from this Blazer up to the engine compartment with some re-bending, but they worked pretty well. This put the filler rear and right. He swapped to a stepside bed from a 88-99 pickup and had the body shop swap the filler around. It did require a bit of frame cutting and boxing, but it was all behind the axle mounts. I just swapped the TBI pump to a TPI pump from an IROC Camaro. The TBI tanks work nicely because they use barbs on the hose insead of screwed firttings. Be sure to swap to FI hose and FI clamps, there is a difference and it is important. On the truck, he wanted headers. I despise headers, on my own truck I would use stock manifolds and weld a bung into the exhaust for the oxygen sensor. I mounted the ECM behind the glove box which took up a lot of room. If I ever did another, I would buy a C4 Corvette weatherproof ECM and mount it in the engine compartment instead. This requires a more expensive harness and ECM, but it would help in the cab. On the swap I did, I used C4 Corvette serpentine accessories, which forces you into electric fans because the aluminum water pump cannot stand up to mounting a fan. If you go this route and have A/C, it will require a custom hose. Also, you will want to upgrade to a CS144 alternator, the CS130 is not very reliable. A better (less expensive) alternative is probably 88-95 TBI truck acessories, which would allow a pump mounted fan. If you have any other questions, please ask. This was written almost 10 years ago, so finding good used low-mileage TPI engines is probably not possible now, and the prices are not correct anymore. Just look at the technical info below and ignore those details.
*****************
You have a unit
First you have to determine whether you want mass air flow or speed density. The C3 is more conducive to speed-density due to space issues. Mass-air flow is easier to make engine changes without PROM changes. If you are technically proficient enough to make a Camaro harness work they can be bought for $100 or less. I have been told that you can also use a 3.1 Corsica or Cavailier harness with a little work, it uses the same 7730 Speed-Density ECM. Aftermarket harnesses range from about $300 for Painless to $500 for Howell to $700 for Street and Performance. Howell makes a great harness, but for a Tuned Port they do not make one that will control the converter lockup on a 200R4/700R4/4L60 transmission. If you are running a manual or non-overdrive-automatic transmission I highly recommend them. I have heard great things about Street and Performance harness, but do not have first hand experience with them. I also have a Fuel Injection Specialties (FIS) harness and it is OK. The ECM can be had used for $10-50. A good external fuel pump will cost at least $100. I use an 88 Ford Truck external pump, $114 from CarQuest, made in Texas by Airtech (also available at O'Reileys). If you have a 78-82 you can use your fuel tank with an 82 sending unit and a TPI pump. 68-77 can also use a modified tank or Rock Valley makes a tank for these cars with a baffle and a GM internal fuel pump. Stock 82 tanks do not have a baffle contrary to popular belief. An aftermarket PROM with VATS and Emissions codes removed will be $100-200 depending on source and complexity. You will have to add an oxygen sensor to your exhaust, $20 for the sensor, $5 for the weld-in bung, and say $25 for an exhaust shop to weld it in if you can’t. Some harnesses use VSS and some do not. An auxiliary VSS sensor is around $75. I recommend using VSS to get better drivability. To install a TPI I say figure at least $800 plus the TPI unit and whatever repairs are necessary to bring it up to useable status. I have TPI/700R4 in my 69 Corvette (Howell harness) and an 83 Pickup (FIS harness) and I love it. Starts good, great torque, good fuel mileage, easy to swap onto stock engines (although both of mine are complete engines out of 90/91 ‘Vettes).

Differences in years
All Corvette TPI intake manifolds work with the older (through 86) iron heads and the factory aluminum heads through 91. F-body TPI intakes use the upright center bolts on 87-92 and thus fit all 87-95 iron heads (non LT1). Either can be swapped to fit the other with some drilling. F-body has the fuel lines come out on the drivers side and has a central port for EGR. Corvette has fuel lines that come out on the passenger side and has an external port for EGR. Corvette fuel rails fit F-body intakes and vise-versa. The runners are all the same through the years, but the LH runner has a hole for a 9th injector in the 85-88 runners. This can be plugged off if you get a nice LH runner and don’t want the 9th injector or decide to run speed-density. The plenums all physically interchange, but 90-92 have an extra vacuum port for the MAP sensor used with the speed-density computers and wiring. 89 is an odd year, it is mass-air flow but without the 9th injector. 89 up throttle bodies can be used on all years, but a 85-88 throttle body requires a ½” hole be drilled in the front of a 89-92 Plenum for idle air. 89-92 Throttle bodies have a more desirable cable attachment. The cable attaches around a circular linkage which has a smoother actuation than the straight linkage on the 85-88. The Corvettes have an aluminum plenum extension over the distributor, the F-body extensions are plastic. The Corvettes use an HEI coil-in-cap distributor for 85-91 (Delco 1103680). 85-86 F-body also used a big-cap distributor. 87-92 F-Body used a small cap distributor with an external coil (Delco 1103479). This same distributor is used in the 87-95 5.0/5.7/7.4 TBI injected trucks and pre-LT1 B-body. The F-body intake gets it's exhaust for EGR from the center passages in the heads like most SB Chevys. A Corvette intake gets it's EGR exhaust from the RH exhaust manifold/header through a flex-tube to an opening near the distributor-no center passages in the intake. If you are required to keep EGR and you have a Corvette intake, I recommend getting the C4 exhaust manifolds. They are like mini-headers, and have a 2 1/2" outlet. I have them on my 69 and like them.

As far as a throttle cable to use, on my Vette, I used a TPI Corvette cable, 1990 I think (now discontinued from GM) but you have to cut the end off inside the car and use a hood-release-cable end (Corvette Central 342138 "cable stop") to get it the correct cable length (the housing is OK). You must use a cable from the type car your throttle body came from if you want to have a chance of not cutting it. Again, 85-88 use a straight pull, while 89-92 have a circular attachment for more smooth actuation and so the inner cable is longer. On my 83 truck I used a TPI F-Body cable and it was OK, but I had to coil it up into a loop in the engine compartment because the housing was so long. I also TPI'd a 72 Chevy truck and used a 90 350 TBI truck cable for it. It was 1/2" short outside if anything, but I was pretty pleased with it all told-I didn't have to shorten it. In a Vette it might be about right. In all vehicles I've done you need a die grinder to square the firewall hole off a bit. All vehicles I've done used the late throttle-body.

I would look into a TPI. They start immediately in winter, have great vacuum, and will get great mileage. I can open the headlights and the wiper door at the same time with no hesitation at all-solid wooomp. With 3.70 gears (and a 700R4 overdrive) I get 18mpg city and 22+ highway. With 3.55 or 3.36 it would be even better. You can probably find a used Corvette TPI engine for $1000 and with an $800 harness/computer/fuel pump you would be set. On a 78-82 you can use the stock fuel tank with an 82 sending unit and TPI pump and be in better shape than 68-77 with an external pump. With the Vette TPI you would have aluminum heads that would remove weight. Even with an F-body iron-head TPI 350 it will be less weight than a stock intake. It will bolt up to everything in your car, use stock accessories, use your transmission, and the visual appeal is awesome. Don't be afraid of fuel injection, it really works.

As far as websites see:
www.corvettefaq.com for conversions or more TPI info at www.fuelinjection.com also www.jagsthatrun.com for misc hard to find conversion parts and info.

LT1
Not to get too deep into the differences in LT1s, there are basically 3 variations. There is the C4 ('92-96) and an F-body ('93-97) version which are 5.7L and have aluminum heads. There is a B-body ('94-96) which is 5.7L with iron heads that actually flow better than stock aluminum heads. There is also a 4.3L B-body (L99) version that you want to stay away from. There is an LT4 in '96 that is an upgraded LT1. All are dimensionally the same as far as bolt-ons. Corvette engines have 4-bolt mains, all others have 2-bolt. All are cast iron blocks. An LT1 is a very similar installation to a TPI. As far as the mechanical installation, the 700R4 and 4L60E transmissions are the same (same length, same basic dimension, mounting, yoke, etc.). You have to have a computer to run a 4L60E which you will have for the engine anyway. As far as the engine, an LT1 will bolt in and can use the same exhaust although you may want to use C4 LT1 manifolds to get true 2 1/2" outlets. The biggest difference between a TPI and an LT1 installation is accessories. TPI can use stock C3 accessories. LT1 has to use LT1 accessories and really needs C4 LT1 accessories. Both F-body and B-body put the a/c compressor low on the passenger side. This interferes with the frame and the right motor mount. You have to use electric fans on an LT1, there are no provisions for a mechanical fan (B-body has an optional one, but it is offset and won't work in a C3). The other difference is in air intake, most LT1s are mass air flow. Again, it is difficult to locate the MAF sensor in a C3. You are better to have it set up for speed-density. In a '78-'82 C3 you could still use an '82 sending unit but an LT1 fuel pump instead. You will want to stay with programming for an OBD1 (pre-'96) style setup, without multiple oxygen sensors. '96-'97 OBD2 engines are fine, you just don't use all the sensors. LT1 requires a custom radiator because of how the hoses run. There are differences in the Optispark, later is better and if you swap to a later cam you can add the later vented Optispark setup. The water pumps are bad to fail and wet the Optispark, so always replace the water pump when you do a swap. LT1s have better top end power that TPIs, but all things considered I'd rather stay with TPI for a cruiser or mild build-I just like the look and the low end torque. If you want more power, LT1 is better; or just step up to an LSx.