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#1 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Richmond,Va
Posts: 2,934
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I Found the Magic Button!
Ok, so I've been messing with my trucks alignment and have a thread going about how to improve the original specs. I haven't been driving it much but now that its warm out its time to dust it off. I added power steering, shocks all the way around and a 1 1/16" bar I had laying around. I thought now would be a good time to recheck the alignment and see if anything had changed.
In my Alignment thread I have advised that it is best to remove all the shims in the front end and equalize the sides to gain the most negative camber and positive caster you can get. Welp, this Saturday I took the truck up to work to do another alignment and discovered this little button that says "Match using cross spec". I never noticed it before. I clicked on it and it gave me the option of which side I'd like to adjust to match the other side. I couldn't de-shim an already unshimmed control arm so I had to "de-tune" the hotter side. So selecting the left side gave me the measurements required to match the left side to the right. One 1/8" shim was required in the front and two 1/8" (1/4" total) was all that was required to get the most out of the angles I could. I set the toe 1/16" per side and took it for a spin. It handles great! And it won't burn up tires. The stock specs are .8 to -.3 camber and 2.0 to 3.0 caster so the front end is still within factory spec but at the outer permissible ranges. -.3 camber is fine but I'd be happier with -.5. I will be performing the "Caster Mod" to dial in additional caster. My truck does have 3" springs on the front so I'm curious what effect different suspension combinations would have. My machine is a Hunter, I'm not sure if other brands have this same kind of feature. I hope you guys find this useful!! ![]()
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Nick Carter 1967 C10 Short bed Fleetside Project Cheap Thrills! 2WD C10 Modern/Performance Alignments Easiest Alignment Ever! |
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#2 |
Senior Member
![]() Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Corona, CA
Posts: 1,840
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Re: I Found the Magic Button!
Thanks, Sure wish I had this for reference when I took mine's in for alignment. I had just rebuilt the front end and it took me two trips before the guy got it right. This should help.
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MusicMan70 1961 GMC Suburban |
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#3 |
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Ruskin Florida
Posts: 4,560
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Re: I Found the Magic Button!
"Castor MOD"? Is that where you switch the upper control arms and move the lowers forward?
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70 swb 4x4 406sbc 700r4 203/205 d60/14blt locker yadda yadda http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...88#post6935688 Yeller 72 Blazer 2wd conversion project "No Daggum Money" http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=550804 LS1-T56 3.73 LSD super budget build Blanco-2014 Sierra SWB https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/...d.php?t=810350 |
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#4 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Richmond,Va
Posts: 2,934
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Re: I Found the Magic Button!
Quote:
![]() I tested switching the uppers and it gives waay too much Caster (13° to 14°). So swapping the uppers is a dream and doesn't work but you are correct about moving the lower arms forward. You would redrill for the locating pin 3/4" forward to come up with 6° to 7° of caster. I will be drilling mine at both 1/2" and 3/4" to see what the difference is. The only problem with dialing in caster this way is that it tilts the steering arm up and back and messes with bump steer so I will be testing to see what effect both 3/4" and 1/2" have on both caster and bumpsteer.
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Nick Carter 1967 C10 Short bed Fleetside Project Cheap Thrills! 2WD C10 Modern/Performance Alignments Easiest Alignment Ever! |
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#5 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Ruskin Florida
Posts: 4,560
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Re: I Found the Magic Button!
Quote:
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70 swb 4x4 406sbc 700r4 203/205 d60/14blt locker yadda yadda http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...88#post6935688 Yeller 72 Blazer 2wd conversion project "No Daggum Money" http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=550804 LS1-T56 3.73 LSD super budget build Blanco-2014 Sierra SWB https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/...d.php?t=810350 |
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#6 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Richmond,Va
Posts: 2,934
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Re: I Found the Magic Button!
You might as well swap the uppers back to the correct sides. Its way too much. The upper limit is 9° and thats with a suspension designed for it. I'm still skeptical of 7° for a stock suspended C10. Rob McGregor addressed bumpsteer (as well as roll center among other things) in his "Make it Handle" thread. The steering arms would have to be modified to drop back down (heated and bent) or the tie rod would have to be flipped underneath the steering arm to correct Bumpsteer. A good alignment is something you can do to any truck but its only when you modify the suspension that things get hairy.
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Nick Carter 1967 C10 Short bed Fleetside Project Cheap Thrills! 2WD C10 Modern/Performance Alignments Easiest Alignment Ever! |
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#7 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 11
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Re: I Found the Magic Button!
Quote:
What I am thinking is: if you were at +2° and the reversed arms put you at +13°, then if I am at -4° I could end up at +7° |
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#8 | |
Senior Member
![]() Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere In So. IL.
Posts: 410
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Re: I Found the Magic Button!
Quote:
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=501241 BMERDOC - thanks for sharing all the info you are as to how to make these trucks handle with a better alignment. I'm currently updating my suspension from the stock 66 C10 to the 73-87 spindles, steering linkage along with power steering and it will be dropped somewhere around 1.5" - 2" with a stock spring cut 1 coil and 2.5" spindle. I'll also do the castor mod while it's apart, I'm shooting for about .75" forward. So, nowhere close to a stock C10 setup. Although I won't know what exactly to tell the guy who aligns it, I'll be able to refer back with the specs as to whether it's right, close enough, or needs more work. Thanks for the shared knowledge. |
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#9 |
Registered User
![]() Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Hopewell NJ 08525
Posts: 232
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Re: I Found the Magic Button!
I wish I could find someone local who could do alignments on older stuff around here . I don't trust anyone as they are all $29.95 "haven't got a clue, was fired from Burger king last week master front end tech"
I need to replace the front upper control arm frame brackets soon and know finding an shop to aline it when I'm done is going to be the worst part of the job ![]()
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'77 P10 (GMs late 60s thru the 70s truck spare parts bin model ![]() |
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#10 | ||
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Richmond,Va
Posts: 2,934
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Re: I Found the Magic Button!
Quote:
Quote:
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Nick Carter 1967 C10 Short bed Fleetside Project Cheap Thrills! 2WD C10 Modern/Performance Alignments Easiest Alignment Ever! |
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#11 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Farmville, Va
Posts: 3,026
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Re: I Found the Magic Button!
Well I know where I'll get my next alignment.
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#12 |
Active Member
![]() Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Centrally located between Houston, Austin and Waco. BCS area.
Posts: 7,947
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Re: I Found the Magic Button!
Good info. I didn't realize it got this technical.
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68 GMC 250/3 speed Saginaw p/b p/s 69 Chevy 350/350 currently in pieces still lookin for a cab 06 Trailblazer I just want a vehicle that I can work on, that won't talk to me, leave error msgs or keep track of how I drive... |
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#13 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Richmond,Va
Posts: 2,934
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Re: I Found the Magic Button!
Tink, consider your next alignment "on the house"!
![]() Lol! I'm not laughing at you but my discoverys have me scratching my head at all those shim stacks in these trucks. To the person you are paying, it shouldn't be all that "technical". As you can see I used a total of three, count them, THREE shims to get a great alignment with a stock suspension (and within factory specs) minus the three inch springs. I'm chomping at the bit to get a hold of a stock suspension truck and try this same method. I'd have to say that after years of experience most techs aren't mathematical geniuses. I think those capable of doing alignments with the old technology they were provided just added and subtracted shims until the alignment was "good enough" and within spec. You were pretty much stuck with the end result. If they had removed all the shims and started from scratch looking at the numbers and realized what was actually happening alignments could have been better. Maybe after some time and experience aligning these trucks it'll make more sense as to why this happened. Sorry for the semi-sorta rant. I feel better now.
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Nick Carter 1967 C10 Short bed Fleetside Project Cheap Thrills! 2WD C10 Modern/Performance Alignments Easiest Alignment Ever! |
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#14 |
Old Skool Club
![]() Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Benton, AR "The Heart of Arkansas"
Posts: 10,880
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Re: I Found the Magic Button!
So, when we completely disassembled the chassis, I made sure to keep each of the shim packs and associated parts in separately labeled bags. From what you wrote, it would seem that maybe it could be put back together differently, regarding the shims.
After my truck was lowered (ECE) 2.5 up front and 4.0 in back, I took it to a good friend to align. It drove great and I am hesitant to reassemble it differently, yet I know that having it completely apart and reassembling it may mean that it won't be the same. I also feel that it would need to be put back on the alignment machine, but I'm just trying to get it close enough that it could be driven w/o destroying the tires in a short distance.
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Member Nr. 2770 '96 GMC Sportside; 4.3/SLT - Daily driven....constantly needs washed. '69 C-10 SWB; 350/TH400 - in limbo The older I get, the better I was. |
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#15 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Richmond,Va
Posts: 2,934
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Re: I Found the Magic Button!
Quote:
If you are rethinking your alignment now after seeing my thread dont fret. Don't take anything apart until you have it back at the shop. Have your Aligner pull all the shims and start from there.
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Nick Carter 1967 C10 Short bed Fleetside Project Cheap Thrills! 2WD C10 Modern/Performance Alignments Easiest Alignment Ever! |
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#16 |
VA72C10
![]() Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Midlothian, VA
Posts: 25,269
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Re: I Found the Magic Button!
Great thread! You'll get to align a bagged truck soon
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Looking for a 67-72 swb or blazer project in or around VA. ![]() |
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#17 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Richmond,Va
Posts: 2,934
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Re: I Found the Magic Button!
I have to add this...Looking at the picture of my alignment with no shims if I could have landed at -.5° camber and 3.9° caster I might well call that good enough. Is it in spec? No, but the original specs in a word STINK! There isn't enough caster OR camber allowed. Sorry, I'm not that old, it may have had something to do with bias ply tires but I doubt it. Could it have been that a truck was made for work? I doubt that too. If I had +.5 camber dialed in and had the bed (or tongue) so loaded down that the nose was light then the camber would be even more positive making things worse. Not adding enough caster makes higher speed stability twitch and return-to-center dull and almost no exsistant. Dialing in better specs not only makes your truck handle better but it is also SAFER. Your truck will be more likely to do what you need it to do when you need to grab handfuls of steering wheel to get out of a jamb!
Its only a matter of time! Without a doubt I'll be posting our findings when the Stepper is on the rack! ![]()
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Nick Carter 1967 C10 Short bed Fleetside Project Cheap Thrills! 2WD C10 Modern/Performance Alignments Easiest Alignment Ever! |
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#18 |
The oddest Todd around
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 1,418
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Re: I Found the Magic Button!
Guess I'm lucky.
There's still a shop here in Fort Worth that does alignments on old vehicles.
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"The greatest pleasure is to vanquish your enemies and chase them before you, to rob them of their wealth and see those dear to them bathed in tears, to ride their horses and clasp to your bosom their wives and daughters." Ghengis Khan IIOY??? |
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#19 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Grapevine, Tx.
Posts: 2,142
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Re: I Found the Magic Button!
toddtheodd
Quote:
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John Hutchison Grapevine,Texas 68 1/2 t swb 68 Mustang 69 Jaguar 71 1/2 t swb 88 Supra CompTs6m 93 Escort GT 2005 Corolla XRS |
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#20 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Arlington, Tx
Posts: 338
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Re: I Found the Magic Button!
Quote:
i took mine to firestone an they spent lil over 2hrs an still not right pulls lil to the right. an tried to get them to put more caster but they kept telling me it wasnt like that from factory. i have it dropped 4.5" an all cpp front end. told them this isnt factory. no luck |
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#21 |
Registered User
![]() Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Formerly MD and San Diego, now loving life in Arizona
Posts: 1,636
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Re: I Found the Magic Button!
BMERDOC - Glad to have found this thread!
My '69 C10 will be on the road by the spring and I might just come down and pay you a visit.
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Alan 2012 Ram 3500 Dually Crew Cab 6.7 Cummins 2014 Palomino Columbus 340RK 5th wheel '69 Chevy C10 396BB |
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#22 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Richmond,Va
Posts: 2,934
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Re: I Found the Magic Button!
Quote:
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Nick Carter 1967 C10 Short bed Fleetside Project Cheap Thrills! 2WD C10 Modern/Performance Alignments Easiest Alignment Ever! |
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#23 |
67-72 parts collector,…
![]() Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Mid-MO
Posts: 22,698
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Re: I Found the Magic Button!
In your opinion,... what camber/caster/toe specs would be best for these trucks?
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Keith Convert to disc brakes. http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=444823 |
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#24 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Richmond,Va
Posts: 2,934
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Re: I Found the Magic Button!
Up to -2 camber is ok but I'd prefer a range of -1 o -1.5 degrees. Somewhere between +5 and +7 degrees caster is good but I have yet to get that far on mine. While my truck does feel great with +3 degrees caster I have found that the steering is still a little dead feeling and the "return to center" isn't great. I worry about +7 degrees because rolling the spindle back that far raises the steering arm and creates more bump steer. Again, I haven't had the opportunity to dial in that much caster into a truck to see what affect it would have on the steering arms. You could always heat and bend the arms or relocated the tie rod underneath the arm. Toe is easy...+1/16 per side (1/8 total)
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Nick Carter 1967 C10 Short bed Fleetside Project Cheap Thrills! 2WD C10 Modern/Performance Alignments Easiest Alignment Ever! |
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#25 |
67-72 parts collector,…
![]() Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Mid-MO
Posts: 22,698
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Re: I Found the Magic Button!
Thank you.
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Keith Convert to disc brakes. http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=444823 |
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