Brake bleeding trouble... still

[Stocker]

Some of you may recall my other thread from a few days ago: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=527289

Still have a soft pedal and getting air in the rear lines, but now have more info. The MC seems good -- with the rear line disconnected, the pedal is nice & firm. Hook up the rear line and the pedal goes soft about 1/2 way to the floor.

This tells me the problem is in the rear brake lines, which I did nothing with when installing the new rear brake shoes. Trapped air? I have literally pumped several 12-ounce cans of fluid (several hundred brake-pedal strokes) through the rear bleeders with no change -- still get lots of air bubbles coming out with the fluid.

I have tried teflon tape on the bleeder threads to help insure no air is drawn in past the threads. And I got a bleeder hose with a one-way check valve so I can pump the pedal continuously without opening & closing the bleeder valves.

Still no joy. I'm about ready to take it to a shop and have it power-bled, but I just hate to. This is a simple system and I should be able to bleed it.

Anyone got any new ideas?

[Lee H]

Your getting air into the system from some where. Power bleeding will not solve this unless the tech can I'd the issue and fix it, which maybe your best bet at this time.
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[Stocker]

Yes, definitely getting air in. Seems like pedal pressure would drive fluid out wherever the air leak is, but I can't find any sign of a fluid leak....

[litew8]

I'd start over.

Bench bleed the MC, install. Use a clear tube connected to bleeder valve.

- Starting with the furthest line away from MC
-- Pump pedal 5 or so times. Pressing the pedal as far down it'll go each time.
--- Hold the pedal all the way down
---- Release the bleeder valve just a little.
----- Do not allow pedal to bottom out while valve is opened.
------ Stop short of that, then repeat until air bubbles are gone.
------- Ensure lines/valves are tightened good.
-------- Repeat process, next furthest away.

Do all 4
Blowing out the lines, you introduced a lot of air to begin with.
If you still can't get rid of the air, you have a leak somewhere letting air in.

[68gmsee]

There are some connections that you can look at. Work yourself backwards along the brake line until you see a connection. If they check good, check the connections at the rear rubber brake hose on top of the rear axle. If the hose hasn't been replaced, it needs to be.

Another possiblity is to find some way to block the lines with plugs starting at each rear wheel to see which side firms up the pedal.

[Stocker]

Thanks for the replies so far, guys.


litew8: I did all of those things, and then I did them all again -- some more than others. Got a few bubbles out of the MC the second time around, so I bled the snot out of it. It's good now, for sure. Only thing you wrote that I couldn't do was 'repeat until air bubbles are gone'.


68gmsee, I didn't replace the rear hose yet simply because I'm already over budget and it's a spendy little devil. I may bite the bullet and do it anyway. Those connections have not been touched, probably since the truck was built, and there's no sign of leaks.

Your idea of isolating the problem gave me another thought. Since I have a hard pedal with the rear line off of the MC, I'm going to try disconnecting the rear line from the prop. valve to make sure it's good. Maybe I can find other connections to cap off and pinpoint the problem.
I haven't given up yet -- I'm determined to fix this bugger without taking it to a shop.

[dragonwrecker]

ok if you have shoes in the rear make sure they are adjusted out far enough.if they are not you will have to push more fluid to the rear to get a feedback at the pedal hence the pedal going further down..the rear shoes should be adjusted out until you can barely feel friction if the wheels are mounted if they are not and you have new drums then adjust them until you can barely slide the drum on. hope this helps.over the years this has been the solution many times in my shop with customers doing their own brakes.

[68gmsee]

The reason I recommend replacing all the rubber brake hoses is that some of us have had problems with the isides collapsing and swelling -in some cases preventing fluid from passing through. The problem is that you cannot see the failure from the outside.

Auto Zone front are about $19 and rear is about $13.

[dragonwrecker]

Originally Posted by 68gmsee

The reason I recommend replacing all the rubber brake hoses is that some of us have had problems with the isides collapsing and swelling -in some cases preventing fluid from passing through. The problem is that you cannot see the failure from the outside.

Auto Zone front are about $19 and rear is about $13.

i do agree with the hose issue being a potential problem but i like to alleviate all other issues first

[Stocker]

Originally Posted by dragonwrecker

ok if you have shoes in the rear make sure they are adjusted out far enough.

I put new rear shoes on and adjusted them until they just start to touch the drums. Had a lot of clean-up on the adjusters... I don't think they've worked in a long time!

Originally Posted by dragonwrecker

just re read the first post something else that will cause air in the rear lines but not show a leak is a poor seal on the resovoir on the rear mc piston.their is no pressure there so it wont show/leak when you apply pressure but it can suck in air under vacuum again hope this helps

I don't quite understand this, could you please clarify? The front reservoir feeds the rear brakes; I don't know if air can even reach it? It would have to somehow get past the rear reservoir (which feeds the front brakes, which are good).

Originally Posted by 68gmsee

The reason I recommend replacing all the rubber brake hoses is that some of us have had problems with the isides collapsing and swelling -in some cases preventing fluid from passing through. The problem is that you cannot see the failure from the outside.

Auto Zone front are about $19 and rear is about $13.

Well, for the time being anyway, there's plenty of fluid flowing to both rear brakes, so it's not collapsed (yet). My local NAPA wants $49 for that rear hose, and when I looked online at Autozone wants $49, and Oreilly's wants $48 (both stores are an hour from me). And yes, I did replace both front hoses.

edit: checked online hose prices again

[litew8]

Replace the MC, go from there. If it persists, you have air entering the system from somewhere.

[Stocker]

Originally Posted by litew8

Replace the MC, go from there. If it persists, you have air entering the system from somewhere.

I thought the MC was good b/c I have a hard pedal when I disco'd the brake line and plugged the port.... it only goes soft when I reconnect the line. Maybe bad anyway, I dunno at this point...

Originally Posted by dragonwrecker

post a pick of you master and res i want to see which one you are useing

Sorry I can't post a pic, but I'll look around for one like it and post that. It's the stock OEM setup on my '72 K20.

edit: I found a pic that's a bit hard to see but it looks like the same setup I have.

[dragonwrecker]

Originally Posted by Stocker

I put new rear shoes on and adjusted them until they just start to touch the drums. Had a lot of clean-up on the adjusters... I don't think they've worked in a long time!

I don't quite understand this, could you please clarify? The front reservoir feeds the rear brakes; I don't know if air can even reach it? It would have to somehow get past the rear reservoir (which feeds the front brakes, which are good).

Well, for the time being anyway, there's plenty of fluid flowing to both rear brakes, so it's not collapsed (yet). My local NAPA wants $49 for that rear hose, and when I looked online at Autozone and Oreilly's (both stores are an hour from me) they were each within $1 or so. I'll check again though.... And yes, I did replace both front hoses.

post a pick of you master and res i want to see which one you are useing

[dragonwrecker]

just re read the first post something else that will cause air in the rear lines but not show a leak is a poor seal on the resovoir on the rear mc piston.their is no pressure there so it wont show/leak when you apply pressure but it can suck in air under vacuum again hope this helps

[PHAT TONY]

I'd take the tape off the bleeders to start; they bottom out to seal. You need to keep the pin in the end of the prop valve from moving while bleeding; it may want to push out. If you have a vaccum pump they work great to suck fluid to the rear to start the process; I think you have air in the line to the back and its jerking you around going from side to side as you bleed. This has got me twice! I used a cheapy hand pump to draw fluid first to the passenger rear, then drivers (make sure system is sealed at the 3 other brakes). Once the line is free of air, and you're sure the prop valve stays centered, they'll bleed out quick.

My Blazer didn't have enough brake to stop the rear wheels in drive at idle on jack stands! Seems like I used 35 gallons of fluid and still had air in back; it took a while with the hand pump but I eventually got some BIG bubbles that must've been moving back and forth. I went through the SAME thing on a customers '68 GMC too.

[Stocker]

Thanks, Tony. The tape was suggested to help prevent air from entering past the threads during bleeding. So far the pin seems to be in place -- it may have moved but I pushed hard on the pedal several times which should center the prop valve. I hooked up the wire tonight and the light is out. Unfortunately I don't have a vacuum pump, maybe I can borrow one or I'd have to buy one.

[OhioDan]

Try bleeding the "T" where the rear lines split to go to either side. Found lots of air there when I did mine. Just my $ .02

[Boog]

Stocker you might be money and time ahead to take it to a shop who has a pressure bleeder.
Quick and easy. Or you may be able to rent one from your local parts store.

Outrageous prices on those hoses in your area too.

[Baime]

Originally Posted by PHAT TONY

I'd take the tape off the bleeders to start; they bottom out to seal. You need to keep the pin in the end of the prop valve from moving while bleeding; it may want to push out. If you have a vaccum pump they work great to suck fluid to the rear to start the process; I think you have air in the line to the back and its jerking you around going from side to side as you bleed. This has got me twice! I used a cheapy hand pump to draw fluid first to the passenger rear, then drivers (make sure system is sealed at the 3 other brakes). Once the line is free of air, and you're sure the prop valve stays centered, they'll bleed out quick.

My Blazer didn't have enough brake to stop the rear wheels in drive at idle on jack stands! Seems like I used 35 gallons of fluid and still had air in back; it took a while with the hand pump but I eventually got some BIG bubbles that must've been moving back and forth. I went through the SAME thing on a customers '68 GMC too.

Phat Tony,
Thanks for your comment on bleeding brakes. It helped me.

What I was observing after replacing the rear braking system:
- Pedal would go to the floor, and brake light would turn on.
- Pumping the brake a few times gave me working brakes, and the light would turn off (I'm assuming the piston inside that sensor would recenter once I got pressure on each side.)

What I was doing:
- Bleeding the brake system like crazy. Mostly in the back, but also at the master cylinder and the front calipers too.
- I was observing foamy air bubbles in the back. It seemed worse on the passenger side.

What I did:
I almost gave up, and drove it to a shop in town that I think is decent, but I tried your recommendation of using a vacuum pump to bleed the system.

I bled out a full cup of fluid from both rear cylinders at the bleeding nipples, and I had good brakes. What a relief.

I'm never going to bleed brakes again without using one of these vacuum pumps. I also really like that I don't have to get a second person involved to do this.

Thanks again,

JP

[VWNate1]

Vacuum bleeders are simple and easy to use .

So are pressure bleeders, I vastly prefer my Motion Pro pressure bleeder ~ it's also a one man job tool .

[treveiger]

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[BMERDOC]

Attempt Gravity Bleeding first (after removing that tape). Go to the plumbing section at Home Depot or Lowes and get the smallest diameter 12" section of clear tubing that will fit over the bleeder. Slip it on and let it drain without letting the MC go dry. If its a bad MC you can get the air out and it will still have a soft pedal. Start at the LR corner of the truck because it is actually furthest from the MC. If or when you get the bubbles out of the LR move to the RR, you should only have to drain that one for a minute to clear from the "T" out. If you can't get the bubbles out you are taking in air along the line to the rear. I doubt this is the case because if you take in air you will let out fluid and a wet spot would indicate your leak. If you still have a soft pedal put an MC on it. RockAuto.com has both the hose and MC you are looking for for less than $20.00 each. My money is on a bad MC.

[slikside]

Subscribed.

Just be advised that should you decide to replace that rear hose, depending on what you have, the replacement hose is likely to be at least 3 " longer than original. My original measures 14.5" overall length ('72 C-10, SWB Coils). The replacement that I ordered (Wagner) was 20.5" long! I'm sending it back for the Centric hose which, at 17.5" is the closest I could find among any of RockAuto's vendors, or local autoparts stores.

[Stocker]

Spent hours yesterday gravity bleeding (drip, drip, drip) and didn't notice any bubbles coming out but it's such a slooooww process.... and afterwards, the pedal was still soft. Bled again by pumping the pedal and cracking the bleeders and still got lots of air.

This morning I installed the 2nd new MC (bench bled very thoroughly), still getting lots of air from the rear bleeders after pouring a few more cans of fluid through the system. Crawled underneath with a flashlight looking for any sign of leaks or damage -- nothing. Remember I never touched the rear lines beyond the prop. valve, and I replaced the rear shoes but not the wheel cylinders.

I have made no progress at all so I'm headed out now to talk with a shop or two. Just have to get the truck there with no rear brakes, and I mean none at all. With the pedal held down firmly, I can rotate both rear drums easily by hand. At least the parking brake works....

[68shortfleet]

Originally Posted by Stocker

Spent hours yesterday gravity bleeding (drip, drip, drip) and didn't notice any bubbles coming out but it's such a slooooww process.... and afterwards, the pedal was still soft. Bled again by pumping the pedal and cracking the bleeders and still got lots of air.

This morning I installed the 2nd new MC (bench bled very thoroughly), still getting lots of air from the rear bleeders after pouring a few more cans of fluid through the system. Crawled underneath with a flashlight looking for any sign of leaks or damage -- nothing. Remember I never touched the rear lines beyond the prop. valve, and I replaced the rear shoes but not the wheel cylinders.

I have made no progress at all so I'm headed out now to talk with a shop or two. Just have to get the truck there with no rear brakes, and I mean none at all. With the pedal held down firmly, I can rotate both rear drums easily by hand. At least the parking brake works....

I have ran into this air problem before on a truck when the piston pins did not get installed into the brake shoes correctly.

Sucks pulling 3/4 drums back off, but maybe a picture of each side would show something that got missed?