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#1 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Kenai, Alaska
Posts: 10
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454 swap questions. Please help!
I'm about to be putting a 454 from a 94 Chevy suburban in my 72 chevy k10. The concern I have is that the 454 is tbi. I have heard that you can just remove an adapter and slap a carburetor on and that will work but I was thinking about putting a Q jet on it. My question is does anyone know of a part number for the intake manifold to be able to bolt a 4 barrel carb on it. I want something with low end torque. It will be my occasional drive to work but mostly my mud bogging truck. I don't want to go tbi because I don't want electric fuel pump and a computer telling me what I can and can't do. I need some part numbers from someone with experience because the Internet is full of products that have horrible descriptions and just want to sell you crap. PLEASE HELP!
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#2 |
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 6,332
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Re: 454 swap questions. Please help!
You'd rather have a carb tell you what you can't do? Because I don't know how violent a mud truck is, but if you're bouncing around much EFI has the advantage of it not uncovering the jets and so on.
I don't know if TBI requires a return-style fuel setup, but if not (or if you're willing to add it) I'd keep the TBI, honestly. Unless you are a super-wizard with carbs it will run better than a carb. As for what intake, just go to Summit and look for a spread-bore manifold that matches your heads. Assuming they are vanilla oval port (but this isn't true of 502s and other late big blocks), something like this: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-2161/overview/ Then you'll need a choke spring and and heat stove and keep the crossover in the head open to maintain driveability. Electric choke is probably easier, but harder to dial in.
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1970 GMC Sierra Grande Custom Camper - Built, not Bought 1969 Pontiac 2+2 427/390 4-speed Coupe 1969 Pontiac 2+2 427/390 4-speed Convertible |
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#3 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Kenai, Alaska
Posts: 10
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Re: 454 swap questions. Please help!
Okay thanks I appreciate it. I do understand that TBI will be more stable with bumps and angles and all but I just like the ability to put parts in my truck and not have to convince my computer that what I'm doing is a good idea. Too temperamental if you ask me. There's definitely ways to squeeze a lot of power and torque out of a TBI but between computers, sensors, and governors, they just aren't for me. The only electronics I like in my rigs are ignition, oil pressure, tach, and headlights. Its purely out of preference and convenience for me to enjoy carbureted. Nothing like a fine tuned carb with timing set the way i like it and a Chevy block under the hood for me
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#4 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Sacramento,California
Posts: 696
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Re: 454 swap questions. Please help!
Davepl is right on that too, I have a buddy with a 70's yota, and we went wheeling and got down into a ravine and his truck would not climb out. as he would try and climb the hill it would stall from lack of fuel. He tried pinning it and getting a run at it etc etc, he ended up popping out the front drive line and we ended up winching him up the side of the mountain. I believe he is now running a 22R-E out of an 89 yota.
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Built not bought! My dad always tried to convince me HEI was pointless! Welding is a lot like sex, you don't have to be great with the rod as long as you thoroughly prep the surface and your good at grinding ![]() My build : 68 C10 Short Bed Conversion |
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#5 | ||||
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: phx az
Posts: 324
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Re: 454 swap questions. Please help!
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youshould have more concerns than just that Quote:
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summit.com, jegs.com, edelbrock, all have 1800 numbers you can call and talk to people who do this is everyday
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tubbed 1984 gmc jmmy http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=639738 Alice Hombre http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=808454 1963 Scout Retro-mod https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/...d.php?t=854167 |
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#6 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Kenai, Alaska
Posts: 10
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Re: 454 swap questions. Please help!
IIGW how right you are. Kinda spaced the electric fuel pump part. I called summit and they gave me a decent list of parts to do the intake. I really like hearing everyone's input. Its really going to make this project easier. Another question I have is will my stock torque converter from my th350 and SBC work for the BBC? Its only got maybe 1500 miles on it at most along with the transmission I had rebuilt. I don't see why it wouldn't but curious if anyone has a definite answer who has more experience with the 454
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#7 |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Marianna Arkansas
Posts: 7,269
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Re: 454 swap questions. Please help!
Is it absolutely certain that the 94 model 454 was a roller? I've torn down some in that general year range and they were not. The vortec was intro'd in the next model year or two my memory is getting fuzzy on the model year stuff trying to keep track of it all. I do know if you unhook the timing wire and roll some timing into the rat it will wake that burb up before you pull it out. I have built several of those trucks with the 454 in the years in 3/4 and 1 tons and after I sold them I add some timing and the new owners thought I'd really done something to add some power. Jim
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#8 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: phx az
Posts: 324
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Re: 454 swap questions. Please help!
yes. transfer your sbc flex plate to the bbc and its the exact same thing.
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tubbed 1984 gmc jmmy http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=639738 Alice Hombre http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=808454 1963 Scout Retro-mod https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/...d.php?t=854167 |
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#9 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 6,332
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Re: 454 swap questions. Please help!
Quote:
Wouldn't that mean the flexplates are incompatible? You get the wrong counterweights on it and it will shake like a bastard and probably tear itself apart eventually. Just a guess. Need someone with more engine knowledge to jump in.
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1970 GMC Sierra Grande Custom Camper - Built, not Bought 1969 Pontiac 2+2 427/390 4-speed Coupe 1969 Pontiac 2+2 427/390 4-speed Convertible |
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#10 |
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Iberia ak
Posts: 2
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Re: 454 swap questions. Please help!
Yep if you put a sbc plate on a BBC you wont be balanced. Don't do it unless you have an internal balanced BBC crank. You can get.
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#11 |
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Iberia ak
Posts: 2
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Re: 454 swap questions. Please help!
'm about to be putting a 454 from a 94 Chevy suburban in my 72 chevy k10. To help this guy out for starters the fire wall will need to be..."persuaded" back I just put mine in last week and if you want to dream about getting your valve covers off the wall needs to move. Im also putting in a 700r4. So if you ever plan on this. Drill your engine mount holes 1.75in more forward so you wont have to move everything back. My last thing to do is move the axle back.....what fun. But good luck
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#12 |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Marianna Arkansas
Posts: 7,269
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Re: 454 swap questions. Please help!
Please for the sake of all things orange, get the right flywheel to save yourself some trouble and maybe a motor problem. The small block [exception being the 400] are internal balanced. The 454 is a external balanced motor and it has a weighted flywheel.The lack of the flywheel weight if you put the small block flywheel on there will be quite noticeable and just plain frustrating when you have to either remove the motor or the trans to replace the flywheel. Jim
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#13 | |
Senior Member
![]() Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Cedar Park, Texas
Posts: 7,496
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Re: 454 swap questions. Please help!
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#14 |
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 6,332
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Re: 454 swap questions. Please help!
I don't want to divert the thread too badly but I did want to take issue with the notion that EFI is something that somehow limits you and that you then are forced to "have to convince my computer that what I'm doing is a good idea".
I can't think of what this would mean. I suppose if it had EGR and you ripped it off you might have to modify a bit somewhere, but in what case could you be doing the right thing and have EFI refuse to play along whereas a carb would work? It seems more like its intimidating than technically limiting. And that's OK, I've never had an old TBI setup so it'd be new to me as well. Just don't throw the EFI away because it's a little mysterious and replace it with you might think of as a bolt-on box (a carb). The carb is WAY more complicated and there are way more things that can go wrong. The conventional wisdom is that "Oh, it's a carb, so I can fix it, but with EFI I couldn't". Yet when a complicated carb actually malfunctions in a non-obvious way they're more insidious to fix than EFI, particularly because EFI will half of the time tell you what's wrong to start with! While many of us can tear down and rebuild a Holley, Q-Jets require more skill and experience. A properly turned Q-Jet runs as well as any EFI I've ever had, the only problem is that the only properly tuned Q-Jets I've seen were factory calibrated to their original application and still on it (ie: car with original engine and carb). Of course with the correct skills and knowledge that could be on any car, there just isn't as much Q-Jet knowledge out there as there used to be. A Holley will get you down the road, and are a great choice for the track, but as the factory demonstrated repeatedly unless you need more than 750-800cfm there are better choices. With Cliff Ruggles backed up 6 months last I checked there does seem to be a demand though. He should hire an intern! More precisely, someone should apprentice with him so they can carry on the trade for the next generation...
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1970 GMC Sierra Grande Custom Camper - Built, not Bought 1969 Pontiac 2+2 427/390 4-speed Coupe 1969 Pontiac 2+2 427/390 4-speed Convertible Last edited by davepl; 09-14-2014 at 01:20 PM. |
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#15 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Posts: 2,151
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Re: 454 swap questions. Please help!
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'83 K20-TPI '73 C10 '79 C10-ex-diesel(SOLD) '07 Tahoe(Son driving) '14 Suburban-DD '71 C10-current project |
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#16 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Kenai, Alaska
Posts: 10
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Re: 454 swap questions. Please help!
I will use the BBC flywheel. I hadn't even considered using the SBC one.
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#17 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Kenai, Alaska
Posts: 10
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Re: 454 swap questions. Please help!
71duck can you post pics of your setup for my reference?
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#18 |
All about them K’s
![]() Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Land of Entrapment
Posts: 6,375
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Re: 454 swap questions. Please help!
On my '57 I ditched the throttle body injection that came on the 350 I put in it. I regret that everyday. The 600cfm edelbrock carb runs ok, but I've had to tune and re-jet it to get it to run right. I had access to the wiring and computer so It would have been easier just to get some 02 bungs and sensors and left the efi alone. Just my opinion
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Tyler '57 3100 http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=813888 '72 K20 Cheyenne http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=662879 ‘69 K10 SWB http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=805206 '98 Silverado LT K2500HD ECLB Vortec 454/4l80E: 6" lift 315/75/16's ‘87 IROC-Z all original 50K mile survivor TPI 305 IROC Blue ‘10 Camaro 2SS/RS Aqua Blue Metallic #93 -version 2.0 ![]() |
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#19 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Kenai, Alaska
Posts: 10
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Re: 454 swap questions. Please help!
I will have the entire suburban so nothing will be missing so i have everything to retain the TBI. I just haven't decided if I want it or not yet.
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#20 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Sacramento,California
Posts: 696
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Re: 454 swap questions. Please help!
Quote:
__________________
Built not bought! My dad always tried to convince me HEI was pointless! Welding is a lot like sex, you don't have to be great with the rod as long as you thoroughly prep the surface and your good at grinding ![]() My build : 68 C10 Short Bed Conversion |
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#21 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Kenai, Alaska
Posts: 10
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Re: 454 swap questions. Please help!
So if I was to add a cam and lifters I would have to reprogram the computer to make it work right?
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#22 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Sacramento,California
Posts: 696
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Re: 454 swap questions. Please help!
possibly, depends on how radical you get. The TbI should adjust itself if it is closed loop. I.E. if you have o2 sensors on the exhaust, and you put in a cam which allows the valve to stay open longer, letting more air in to the cylinder, the o2 sensor in the exhaust should see that it is running lean and therefore add more fuel..... to an extent. If you are running such a radical cam that you need more fuel than the mapping can provide you will either need to reprogram, or install larger injectors/foggers (which is a lot easier on a TBI than a TPI because on the TBI the injectors are right under the air cleaner in plain view)
__________________
Built not bought! My dad always tried to convince me HEI was pointless! Welding is a lot like sex, you don't have to be great with the rod as long as you thoroughly prep the surface and your good at grinding ![]() My build : 68 C10 Short Bed Conversion |
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#23 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Kenai, Alaska
Posts: 10
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Re: 454 swap questions. Please help!
That makes sense. I just don't want to fight a computer to get something I know is okay to work. I'll just see how this project goes and I'll fill you guys in in a few weeks when I do the swap
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#24 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 6,332
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Re: 454 swap questions. Please help!
Quote:
And if you had a carb on it, your carb would not be properly calibrated. That's why you'll find multiple different Q-Jets listed in the parts book for a 350 Camaro. Depends on the cam, the intake, the compression, which exhaust, and so on. Either way the right way to do it would be to get it on a dyno with a 4-gas analyzer and tune it. I don't go that wild, but I do put O2 bungs in my carb'd cars so I can stick a wideband on it and and least do my crude version of calibrating. But I only play with jets and rods, I'm not in there drilling out air bleeds and so on. Some people can. The difference is people don't recalibrate the carb. They two-foot the brake when it's cold, put up with bogging, all of that. If it's EFI, they blame EFI. If it's a carb, that's just life.
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1970 GMC Sierra Grande Custom Camper - Built, not Bought 1969 Pontiac 2+2 427/390 4-speed Coupe 1969 Pontiac 2+2 427/390 4-speed Convertible |
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