96 diesel in a 67 GMC

[hd78glide]

I have a chance to get a 96 Chevy 2wd with a turbo diesel real cheap. The body and interior are done, but everything else looks really good. Only 110,000 KM's. Would I be able to take the crossmemeber out of the 96 and put it into my 67? That would solve so many problems if it will fit.

He only wants $1000 for it, it's a couple hundred miles away, and I have to pick it up by noon tomorrow if I want it. For that price I'd be crazy not to go for it...

Is there somewhere I can find frame specs for both trucks so I can compare them?

Thanks...Jim

[chevy_fatman]

I *think* that you should be able to bolt that diesel to the original crossmember in your truck, board member tplfrompa has a diesel in his C-20, I would get the motor/truck now and worry how to stuff it into the truck later

[roj2323]

don't do it!!

ok why? well the older chevy diesels are junk. they are very prone to breaking down and are very expencive to fix. the engine is also prone to breaking crank shafts. if you want to go with a diesel go with the newer one gm uses, "yr2000+" which is not made by GM. Or dare i say it go with a ford diesel

i have personaly had alot of experince with the older gm diesels and i really have grown to hate them just as much as i hate gm 4.3's. here's a little story about my bosses truck.

my boss bought his 1ton diesel truck in 2001 with 120,000 on it. since then he has had a blown engine, 2 blown turbos , 4 fuel regulators, a computer and plenty of other parts. today his truck is parked because it needs a 5th fuel regulator which is around $300. he has only put 20,000 on it since the engine swap. keep in mind all of the other parts except for one fuel regulator were put on after the engone swap. all in all it's cost him more than $8,000. in parts. so much for the deal he got on it.

now that was only one story i have more but i don't want to bore you as they all sound quite the same.

in short : don't do it!!

ondrew

[hd78glide]

I would somewhat agree with you regarding the 6.5, I've heard about the injection pump needing frequent replacement, but the 6.2 is rock solid!

[dougs69c10]

Originally Posted by roj2323

don't do it!!

ok why? well the older chevy diesels are junk. they are very prone to breaking down and are very expencive to fix. the engine is also prone to breaking crank shafts. if you want to go with a diesel go with the newer one gm uses, "yr2000+" which is not made by GM. Or dare i say it go with a ford diesel

i have personaly had alot of experince with the older gm diesels and i really have grown to hate them just as much as i hate gm 4.3's. here's a little story about my bosses truck.

my boss bought his 1ton diesel truck in 2001 with 120,000 on it. since then he has had a blown engine, 2 blown turbos , 4 fuel regulators, a computer and plenty of other parts. today his truck is parked because it needs a 5th fuel regulator which is around $300. he has only put 20,000 on it since the engine swap. keep in mind all of the other parts except for one fuel regulator were put on after the engone swap. all in all it's cost him more than $8,000. in parts. so much for the deal he got on it.

now that was only one story i have more but i don't want to bore you as they all sound quite the same.

in short : don't do it!!

ondrew

that can be said for any motor, every brand/line is going to have a bad one in there now and then.

If i may ask why do you dislike the 4.3 b/c its a 350 minus 2 cylinders

[lilred67]

i put 200,000 miles on a 6.2l gm diesel with a banks turbo system on it.yea it broke the crank when it finally let go,but how many 350's go 200,000 plus miles and pull like it did.....not many.
my point is every motor has some side effects.gm 6.2 & 6.5l diesels
have some problems,there where some good motors and some just blew up.
i say go for it if you can score a deal on the 6.5l. my self would look for a pre '93 6.5l or a 6.2l if i was doing the swap(less electrical crap)...imo

[67_C-30]

I have had great service with 6.2's and 6.5's and have logged over 600,000 miles over the years in 2 trucks and 1 Suburban, and all still run to this day. I do agree that the electronic IP is troublesome on the 94+ years, but changing back to the DB2 mechanical IP is easy, and fairly inexpensive. Speaking of that, the 6.2 and 6.5 are THE most inexpensive diesels to keep up out there. There are thousands of 6.2's being replaced by 6.5's in refurbished Humvees, so there are lots of parts available. They are fuel efficient, and most are pretty quiet to be a diesel. They are a light duty engine though, so if you are planning on hauling very heavy loads (like 16,000+) I would go with a Cummins. I just couldn't bring myself to put a Powerjoke, uhh, I meant a Poserstroke in a Chevy!!

[Bob B.]

Best thing about them is that they use the same mounts, and have the same bell housing bolt pattern as a Chevy small/big block V-8. Not too heavy, either.

[local13hutch]

I also am planning on building a diesel 72 club cab flat bed and dont know wich engine to go with.I first was considering a cummins from a dodge Because I didnt like the idea of using a jap gm engine. I work on the water front and every thing is diesel and every type made.Some of my mechanic friends swear by the newer gm power plant.I have access to any make year and model so I want to make the right decision because this vehicle will be a keeper. lots of my friends go out and buy these new trucks, But I just cant do it. The truck I build has also got to be 4x4 auto trans but not independent front end so maby I should use a newer chassis and just do a body swap I hate the idea of using a ford truck with a gm body. but I dont have the experience in this field that alot of you guys have got, so please save me alot of headache time and money with some input...'' hd78glide.''..I apologise for hijacking your thread but I to was considering buying a 96 gm low mileage next week so we can all learn something here. Some of these board members have taught me more in one afternoon than I have figured out in a year between the bone yard and my garage..THANK YOU VERY MUCH IN ADVANCE FOR ANY INPUT.......

[72freak]

I got fussed at on this site about 2 weeks ago for calling older GM diesels "Boat Anchors". The 6 people who have had good luck with them were very upset with me......so...I changed my tune a little bit and here is what I recomend about puting a 6.2 or a 6.5 in anything.
There are people who have had good luck with them. The major problem was not the engine but in fact the injectors and the pumps. I had several of both and they were always broken. Here is what i recomend if you have never had one.
Do a little research.....follow the selling price of all makes and models that have a diesel in it. Fords, Chevy, Dodge, older fords and so on. One of the makes listed above does not sell well at all and if it does ...they sell VERY cheap!!!

There are a couple of good diesel web sites available to pick the brains of diesel freaks. TDR is one of them. If you decide to go with a 6.2 or a 6.5 do your self a favor and research the mods you need to do to it and do it before you put it in.

[onetoncrewcab]

Originally Posted by 72freak

The major problem was not the engine but in fact the injectors and the pumps. I had several of both and they were always broken.

I haven't read this whole thread, but this is probably the one that I agree with the most. I work at a maintenance shop for the military and we stock injectors and the injector pumps. We used to go through quite a few of both a couple of years ago. We don't go through quite as much now because the old CUCVs (the 84-86 Chev Blazers and Pickups) are headed out of the system. Most of our HMMWVs are in Iraq so those are gone temporarily (I hope).

We may have went through a lot of these because we had a lot of these trucks in the system. But it seemed that we used a higher proportion of these parts than anything else.

Mike

[special-K]

HooRah for the GM diesel supporters!!BTW,our national security has been relying on them since`84.I feel safe,don`t you guys?Also,the DuraMax is a GM motor built in partnership with Isuzu.They`ve been partners since the early`80s,as well.There is not a more economical diesel swap for GM gas-powered trucks than the "bolt-in" 6.2/6.5 Detroit-Allison motors.They were built to be cheap to run,not part of the currant HP wars today.I`ve known about catastrophic failures,but have not experienced any in the four vehicles I`ve own since`88.They have great low-end torque and my theory is that if you abuse that(lugging),it`ll hurt them.They may seem to lug well,but while pulling,I think they might be yanking their own guts out.GM is the only one that used diesels in 1/2t Blazers,Suburbans,and pickups(even pre-88 short beds).I think these are the most practicle vehicles money can buy.The mechanical injector pump is a Stanadyne DB2,as mentioned.It was used in all GM light diesels until`94 when they had to go electronic(DS4)to meet emmissions standards.I have gotten as much as 240,000 miles from a DB2.I got 130,000 from the only DS4 I`ve run.Which I sold as a working pump ($300) after I swapped-in a new 300hp marine-duty 6.5TD with a "worked" DB2.A DB2 can be had for a little over $300 and just unplug the DS4,unbolt and install the DB2 on`94-up 6.5TDs.It`s the Fuel Solenoid Driver that goes up on the electronics and can consequently harm the I/P.The cover that is on these motors needs to be removed to allow better heat escape off the engine.The I/P location in the valley under the intake is the next culprit.The FSD is mounted to the I/P for the fuel flow to cool it.Not happening,the FSD is heating the fuel,not good for lubricity in the I/P.There is a re-locating mount/heat-sink that moves the FSD off the I/P and up on top of the intake,reducing surface temps on the driver by 60 deg.This greatly increases the life of the FSD and,in turn,helps the I/P.
Also,anything you can do for better cooling is important.In`97 GM went from an 85GPM water pump to a 125 GPM pump and used a higher flow dual thermostat neck off the engine.They also used a better/larger fan and there are aftermarket clutches that kick-in at lower temperatures.
All turbo diesels should come equipped with Exhaust Gas Temperature gauges.That`s the only way you can be sure of what you`re doing to your motor.Temperatures can exceed 1,000 degrees,which is the "red-line" threshold to stay under.A lift of the throttle foot brings temps down rapidly by a couple hundred degrees.W/o an EGT guage,you`re in the dark and can easily slowly "cook" your motor.
Understanding these engines is the key.I suggest anyone with these engines visit www.thedieselpage.com

[Blue85]

Special-K, You Da Man! I can't say my 6.5 has the most power out there, but gets great mileage, and on the highway, even with the 3-1/2" straight pipe, you cant even tell its a diesel(except for turbo whistle when step on it). Mines got about 150,000 and doesnt use a drop of oil and harly ever smokes.

[TP from Cntl PA]

If your gonna go through all the trouble, put something in that truck that will PAY OFF in the end...............Go with a Cummins, it is that simple. IMO, GM never did, and still doesn't know how to build a REAL diesel power plant. Yeah, the D-Jap is a ok runner, but I don't see the longevity that has been proven with the 6BT Cummins. Only reason Banks is backing them is because he can get all HP from RPM's because you can really crank them up, which in the real world doesn't work well if your actually using them for work.

Also, Any Powerjoke is NOT an option. Yeah, International(I love them, farmed with their products for years), can build great engines(DT-466), but the stroke isn't one of them IMO. The 7.3 was a fairly good engine other than some minor things, but these 6.0's don't impress me................Power from less cubes and more RPM's is a step backwards. I have been told Ford is growing the displacement some for the upcoming years, so even they figured it out that it doesn't work like that.

[72freak]

Originally Posted by TP from Cntl PA

If your gonna go through all the trouble, put something in that truck that will PAY OFF in the end...............Go with a Cummins, it is that simple. IMO, GM never did, and still doesn't know how to build a REAL diesel power plant. Yeah, the D-Jap is a ok runner, but I don't see the longevity that has been proven with the 6BT Cummins. Only reason Banks is backing them is because he can get all HP from RPM's because you can really crank them up, which in the real world doesn't work well if your actually using them for work.

Also, Any Powerjoke is NOT an option. Yeah, International(I love them, farmed with their products for years), can build great engines(DT-466), but the stroke isn't one of them IMO. The 7.3 was a fairly good engine other than some minor things, but these 6.0's don't impress me................Power from less cubes and more RPM's is a step backwards. I have been told Ford is growing the displacement some for the upcoming years, so even they figured it out that it doesn't work like that.

My findings exactly!!!!!!!!!!! I have had all the above including 2 DT466's and Im with you!!!!!!!! I am however reserving my opinion on the Duramax for a couple more years!!!

[TP from Cntl PA]

Originally Posted by 72freak

My findings exactly!!!!!!!!!!! I have had all the above including 2 DT466's and Im with you!!!!!!!! I am however reserving my opinion on the Duramax for a couple more years!!!

I'd like to try to stuff a DT-414 IH in a pickup, a little work and it would blow everything else off the road, Cummins included. A guy on another board I frequent, put a DT-361 in an old 1-ton IH and with some mod's it will run with his Cummins' powered Dodge, not to mention it looks way better doing it.

[72armyswbtruck]

Wholly Cow, lots of different opinions here.

[local13hutch]

Hey guys see what I mean. Thank you so far . My brother got a 04 ford diesel and the only thing I was aware of is that it was the first year of a new design and that alone would have scared me off but he got it anyway he wouldnt listen to his younger brother. And let me tell you he has had more loaner cars than you could shake a stick. Every electronic gadget on this thing has had some kind of recall. I read someware that there has been 12.000 recalls on that engine alone. This is the kind of thing I am trying to avoid. I am taking all of this 411 in and I'm going to research the websites that are recommended. Thank you everybody but please dont stop now ....lol...

[TP from Cntl PA]

Originally Posted by local13hutch

Hey guys see what I mean. Thank you so far . My brother got a 04 ford diesel and the only thing I was aware of is that it was the first year of a new design and that alone would have scared me off but he got it anyway he wouldnt listen to his younger brother. And let me tell you he has had more loaner cars than you could shake a stick. Every electronic gadget on this thing has had some kind of recall. I read someware that there has been 12.000 recalls on that engine alone. This is the kind of thing I am trying to avoid. I am taking all of this 411 in and I'm going to research the websites that are recommended. Thank you everybody but please dont stop now ....lol...

Seems the PSD's always had flaws IMO, Sensors on them never seems to last long, and the glow plug relays don't seem to last long either. All my buddy's have them though, and although I will say I did like the last of the large 7.3's. One of them has a D-jap in a regular cab GMC backed by a 6spd...........It is an awesome truck and I really like it, but it isn't a Cummins.

Anyhow, like I said before, if your going through all the work, put something in that will last, be reliable, and most importantly be DIFFERENT than what everyone else has. I can think of a long list of engines that would be neat. My K-20 will probably be getting a 4-53 DETROIT sooner or later. I've always had a soft spot for Detroits, but most people don't like the noise. I like the fact that they can take abuse, run forever, and most importantly, you can put the REAL Jacob's engine brake on them(Jake Brake). Others I'd love to try, but probably never will would be a IH DT-414 like I mention before, a Perkins 6-354, they start great in the cold and spin up quick and lots of parts can be had, and they except common bell housings. I think a Deere 466 would be awesome as well.

The other nice thing about these is you can run a real transmission behind them, not the whimps they are putting in pickups now.

[67_C-30]

Originally Posted by TP from Cntl PA

Seems the PSD's always had flaws IMO, Sensors on them never seems to last long, and the glow plug relays don't seem to last long either. All my buddy's have them though, and although I will say I did like the last of the large 7.3's. One of them has a D-jap in a regular cab GMC backed by a 6spd...........It is an awesome truck and I really like it, but it isn't a Cummins.

Anyhow, like I said before, if your going through all the work, put something in that will last, be reliable, and most importantly be DIFFERENT than what everyone else has. I can think of a long list of engines that would be neat. My K-20 will probably be getting a 4-53 DETROIT sooner or later. I've always had a soft spot for Detroits, but most people don't like the noise. I like the fact that they can take abuse, run forever, and most importantly, you can put the REAL Jacob's engine brake on them(Jake Brake). Others I'd love to try, but probably never will would be a IH DT-414 like I mention before, a Perkins 6-354, they start great in the cold and spin up quick and lots of parts can be had, and they except common bell housings. I think a Deere 466 would be awesome as well.

The other nice thing about these is you can run a real transmission behind them, not the whimps they are putting in pickups now.

All this talk about it being worth it, and it not being a Cummins, and being DIFFERENT is all good, but the original poster asked what was involved in putting a 6.5L engine and tranny in a older truck. He can get a low mileage truck for $1000, and was weighing his options. No one is disputing that the Cummins is a great engine, but the you can buy/build 6.5's at about the rate of 3 : 1 over a Cummins. It costs a lot more to do a Cummins swap, there is much more fabrication involved. Another thing that ppl fail to mention is that If you are using the drivetrain out of a Dodge, the trannys in them are truly boat anchors. That leaves "real transmissions" as you said, which is a big HD manual tranny or an Allison, which are both expensive and require fabrication to put in. The 6.2/6.5's have the same mounting pads, same GM bell housing pattern, and are truly a bolt in deal. I mean they are designed to go in GM trucks dating back to '82, which is very similar to our trucks.


Odd, neat, and different projects are very cool. I love different, which why I am freshening up a 351 Magnum GMC V6 for one of my 1 tons right now. But when it comes to my 67 C-30, and I wanted a generic set-up because I am building it to drive everywhere. There's nothing much at all custom about the drivetrain. If I'm on the road and something tears up, I can walk into an Advance or Autozone everywhere, and buy the parts I need to fix it. Real parts stores are getting few and far between.

All that being said, I still say that putting a 6.2 or 6.5 in a older Chevy truck is the easiest and cheapest to convert to a Diesel. I am very happy with mine and would recommend it to anyone wanting to do the swap.

[TP from Cntl PA]

Originally Posted by 67_C-30

Another thing that ppl fail to mention is that If you are using the drivetrain out of a Dodge, the trannys in them are truly boat anchors. That leaves "real transmissions" as you said, which is a big HD manual tranny or an Allison, which are both expensive and require fabrication to put in.

It isn't the transmissions fault.............The NV4500 is a great transmission, the problem is the ENGINE is too much for it. You don't hear the Ford or GM guys having problems because their diesels won't lug like a Cummins. Even the Allison has limitations when bolted behind a 6-BT, I seen more than a few guys have custom shafting made for their Allisons on the Cummins Conversion board because of the fear of a turned up 6BT shreading everything internally because of the small shaft OD and spline counts.

If I ever use a Cummins for another swap, I am going to go with an Eaton...........I didn't even use a 6BT for my conversion, and I tore the heck out of my driveline twice..............The extreme amounts of torque and very low RPM just tears everything up. It doesn't help that we drive mine like a Semi, we pull it down to where its torque peaks out, engine keeps going, driveline says "NO!" But that is the trait I love about a Cummins, you can't kill them..............

[67_C-30]

Originally Posted by TP from Cntl PA

It isn't the transmissions fault.............The NV4500 is a great transmission, the problem is the ENGINE is too much for it. You don't hear the Ford or GM guys having problems because their diesels won't lug like a Cummins. Even the Allison has limitations when bolted behind a 6-BT, I seen more than a few guys have custom shafting made for their Allisons on the Cummins Conversion board because of the fear of a turned up 6BT shreading everything internally because of the small shaft OD and spline counts.

If I ever use a Cummins for another swap, I am going to go with an Eaton...........I didn't even use a 6BT for my conversion, and I tore the heck out of my driveline twice..............The extreme amounts of torque and very low RPM just tears everything up. It doesn't help that we drive mine like a Semi, we pull it down to where its torque peaks out, engine keeps going, driveline says "NO!" But that is the trait I love about a Cummins, you can't kill them..............

I was talking moreso about the Dodge Auto trannys, but I have friend that has a salvage yard and he has had lots of trouble with NV4500's in his 3500HD Dump truck and Rollback with 6.5L TD. If you beat on any of the big 3's Turbo Diesel trucks, drivetrain problems will result. Lugging the engine down to the torque peak like you are talking about asking for trouble. My uncle used to run a pulp wood business, and they ran a lot 478 and 432 cu in GMC V6 gassers in the trucks, and when they would get them in a bind and lug them, it would destroy big Clark trannys.

[TugOwar]

*pokes head in..

Hey, theres actually a detroit that will fit in a pickup? Whats that come out of?

[special-K]

Uh,the point was missed here.It isn`t any trouble putting a 6.2 or 6.5 in a GM truck.That is what will make it worthwhile.The question isn`t which is the ultimate diesel.No adaptors,no fabrication,no modifications,that`s what I`m talking about.I`d like to have a Cummins in an old GM someday.But it`s not that simple.

[TP from Cntl PA]

Originally Posted by special-K

Uh,the point was missed here.It isn`t any trouble putting a 6.2 or 6.5 in a GM truck.That is what will make it worthwhile.The question isn`t which is the ultimate diesel.No adaptors,no fabrication,no modifications,that`s what I`m talking about.I`d like to have a Cummins in an old GM someday.But it`s not that simple.

No, point here is if your gonna have the front clip off, the old engine removed, why Half A$$ something when you can take acouple more steps and really do it right. IMO, even so call bolt in deals can be a nightmare..........Don't know if any of you guys are familar with IH trucks, but we had a IH 2010 Fleetstar with a 549 V-8 Gasser, and had the same model truck with a 555 Cummins..............The engine transplant was supposed to be a bolt in deal..............I learned the hard way that we should have got the engine we wanted and made it work, instead of finding one that so called "Bolted in" because in reality it wasn't a true bolt in deal, and in the end it STILL was a turd.............I imagine a GM diesel swap into a old pickup would be similar to our IH.