Camaro subframe ?'s

[outlawc]

Anyone here have a camaro subframe installed in their 67-72 trucks. I have a 79 Z/28 and several people have told me to install the subrame out of it instead of rebuilding and lowering the factory suspension. I have a couple of freinds that have done this but the trucks are "real" low. They slid the camaro subrame inside of the truck framerails. They both swear by this modification and say their trucks handle extremely well. The only thing I am not sure of is the ride height.

My question is has anyone done this by sitting the truck frame on top of the camaro subframe and does anyone have pictures to show how it sits done this way. The two trucks I have seen done sit real low and I am just curious as to how one would sit with the trucks framerails sitting on the camaro subframe.

[19673ontree]

Iv'e seen a lot of this and if I was fixing a custom lowered truck it is what I would do , the camaro subframe needs to be inside the truck frame if you put on the underside like you said it would be to high and would cause problems up at the radiator support in the bushing height area , it would work but if want the truck low put it inside ,

[see ten]

It sounds like a lot of work for no obvious good reason to me. A Camaro subframe swap has always been a popular application for people who don't already have an independent front suspension (which your truck already has). On top of that what are the odds of the 79 parts not needing rebuilt? If your truck is old enough that it doesn't have disc brakes, find any 71-86 and use them for your donor parts. Once you get it roadworthy stand back and determine the amount of drop you want. Again, I could understand considering this swap if you where working on an early model truck with a solid axle, but you're not. You can check out www.earlyclassic.com for stance photos of trucks with different amounts of drop.

[Longhorn Man]

I agree 100% with see ten. That is a mod for solid axle trucks. The Aspen/Volarie front end is another common one too.

[outlawc]

Thanks guys. I was checking into pro's and con's of both. I already have a camaro subframe compared to having to buy a 73-87 frontend. I would rebuild either one and it seems parts are cheaper for the camaro, but I would have to buy a steering universal to hook up the steering shaft if I use the camaro subframe. With using the camaro subframe there wouldnt be the added cost to dropped spindles and springs to lower it , it would only need to be lowered in the rear and the camaro subrame in stock form is way lower than any kit that is sold. I am not 100% sure but I think the Z/28 suspension would handle and corner much better than a lowered truck suspension. In my case my friends have done these many times and said it will only take a couple of hours to slide in and weld it up and they will help me for free. I would have to install the camaro rearend or purchase new axles to keep the car bolt pattern which I would have to do either way since mine are six lug.

So there are pros and cons to both but it seems to me that cost of buying/rebuilding/lowering a truck suspension is twice as much compared to the camaro subframe install. The camaro subframe install should provide a much better handling package and with the polygraphite or urethane rebuild would be even better. My main concern was the ride height with the camaro subframe istalled inside the frame rails. My freinds truck sits like it has air ride only without the adjustability. I am just trying to get the most bang for my buck and get the lowest, best handling package I can so I can put money elsewhere. My freinds truck has 17" wheels on it and with the camaro subframe installed it puts the fender about 1/2 inch above the wheel, actually tucks the tire a little. I like the look just not to sure if I want it that low all the time.

Thanks for helping guys, I have some decisions to make. I do know I want it lower than the kits at Early Classic offer. If I went the truck supension route is there anyway to lower it more than the kits without having to go the air ride route?

[powell72]

Don't forget about the time spend figuring out radatior support mounts and the fact that when you're done you have car brakes on a truck.

[outlawc]

Thanks powell72, didnt think of that. My freinds havent ever said anything about any braking problems, but it is another thing to think about. I am starting to lean more to the 73-86 crossmember. I own a restoration shop and fabrication time for personal projects is something I dont have a lot of and I am also doing a 72 El Camino for my wife so I have to spread the money around. I am not trying to go cheap but also dont want to spend alot on kits to convert to disc/power steering, etc. only to find out later that I could have used something else for a 1/4 of the price.

With the 73-86 crossmember swap, do you use all the suspension or just certain parts. Will I need the upper a arms from the donor or do I use my 68 a arms. I also have a complete 1990 GMC Sierra, is there anything that can be used from it. I was aleady going to pull the motor and trans and computer to have the TBI. Is there any suspension that will work? I do know that I want it lower than the 4/6 drops that are offered, maybe 6/7 or 6/8.

I dont remember where is saw it, but I remember reading about notching the crossmember or the frame to get a extra 1 1/2" of drop. I remember they had basicaly made a channel where the crossmember bolts to the frame, so the frame sat down in a notch. Has anyone done this? "Are there any problems that would come from this.

I know I am asking alot of questions and I appreciate the help everone has given. Thanks.

[PICKMUP]

Hack away! The more you cut---the less it is worth! LOL. I won't be putting any "car" suspension on my trucks.

[outlawc]

??? If I was building something to be worth alot I wouldnt be building a 68 base model truck.

[19673ontree]

every aspect of the camaro subframe is way better than any truck suspension either stock or lowered whether you buy lowering kits drop spindles spend a pile of money on the truck suspension and it still don't compare with a camaro nova suspension they are just that much better !!!
the brakes on a 1979 camaro are exellent , myself I'm fixing my 67 stock so I won't change it at all but if I was building a modified truck with lowered look it would have a camaro subframe no doubt about it ,,

anyone that ever drives a pickup with a correctly installed properly rebuilt camaro subframe will never say anything bad about ,

[outlawc]

Thats why I was considering the camaro subframe. I do know most of the "high dollar" trucks being built use some type of car suspension, either mustang II or Corvette. I am leaning toward the truck suspension but the trucks I have driven with camaro subframes handle and drive like a camaro, and not a truck. I actually love the increase in stability and tighter handling of the camaro suspension, just not sure about the ride height. I want it slightly higher than the camaro and slightly lower than the truck kits. Just trying to decide which route I want to go.

Your right Olden Days, it is a little narrower.

[Longhorn Man]

Honestly, i don't see the camaro front end handling much better. They are pretty much the same, but the truck parts are stronger. If you did the camaro swap, you'd want to get bigger brakes, and a way bigger sway bar.
Personally, I still say convert to disks, and toss in some drop springs.
You'd have to replace your wheels too if you did the camaro deal... 5X5 bolt pattern for the truck, 5 X 4 1/2 on the car stuff.

[outlawc]

Thanks Longhorn Man. I have a 6 lug truck and want to put either Foose Nitrous wheels or Torque Thrust II's so I will have to buy wheels either way.

[see ten]

I really don't see how the Camaro or Nova suspension is better than the trucks aside from the disc brakes (that are smaller than truck disc brakes so how is that better). If you go to the FAQ section I think there is a write up on using the later model spindles. They make 73-86 drop spindles that provide 3" of drop. If you combine that with a drop coil you are going to be down there. You might try posting this question in the suspension section to get some more action.

[powell72]

I could see how some people might think a camaro/nova front would ride better that a truck since a car frontend actually has control arm bushings instead of cross shafts, but I don't think I would notice, and I've had a '72 Nova the same time as one of these trucks. Before you get too hot and heavy on drop crossmembers and such, how low are you planning on going? If time and money are not on your side for fab work everything should be leaning very heavily towards a crossmember swap.

[Shane]

The handling difference lies in the coil spring rates and the sway bars.

Nothing else is different (not counting size) ... an unequal A arm system is an unequal A arm suspension. Regardless if it came from a camaro, a corvette or a truck. At that point its a matter of component weight.

The reason the Camaro front end feels "different" is because it weighs less ... and the secret there is less unsprung weight. Do a little research on road racing suspension geometry and you will have all the info you care to know concerning "unsprung" and "sprung" wieght.

Also, go to the suspension section of the forums and read up on the crossemember conversion being offered by one of our own members that allows the use of C4 corvette suspension components on OUR trucks.

I would be willing to bet his front end design will run circles around a stock Camaro design ... for a hell of lot LESS money and installation headaches.

[crazy longhorn]

If you swap the Camaro stub......post the pics, I would like to see them. I grew up on "dare to be different", & told my old mom that maybe I wasnt wrong....JUST DIFFERENT! I for 1 like to see a different approach on things L

[outlawc]

I can post pics. I can also go by my buddies house and take pictures of theirs. One of them is rear engine/rear wheel drive (using all factory GM components), camaro subframed, and chopped. It is also 4 wheel independent suspension. Pretty unique ride.

Shane I did go look at the C4 vette supsension you referred to. That setup is expensive and way more complicated to setup than a camaro subframe install. My freind that has told me to go with the camaro subframe setup has been building high end street rods and race cars for over 30 years and has done many C4 vette conversion on street rods. He has a 30 coupe in his shop right now being done and when I asked him what it would cost for something like that he told me pull the subframe out of my camaro and use that, unless I just liked spending money. The camaro subrame is what he has been using on his personal daily driven rides for years so I know it works, I was just not sure if I wanted mine that low all the time and wondered if anyone had pics of the other way to install the subframe so I could compare ride height. I have been doing price comparisons all night and the benefits of the camaro subframe wins, so I will be going that route. I also have a 79 malibu that he has been wanting for a race car and he is going to swap labor for the car. I will just have to deal with the ride height.

crazy longhorn, I will try to get pics of his truck tomorrow if you still want to see them.

[dirtball]

Originally Posted by Shane

The handling difference lies in the coil spring rates and the sway bars.

Nothing else is different (not counting size) ... an unequal A arm system is an unequal A arm suspension. Regardless if it came from a camaro, a corvette or a truck. At that point its a matter of component weight.

Control arm position and length plays a HUGE role in the handling of a vehicle.

[Shane]

Originally Posted by dirtball

Control arm position and length plays a HUGE role in the handling of a vehicle.

I'm not disputing that, but the camaro front suspension was designed for a vehicle that weighs approx. 2/3rds of what these trucks do (sprung weight). By simply welding in a front clip from a Camaro into one of these trucks and then expect that heavier truck/vehicle to handle as well as the lighter vehicle is just plain wishful thinking.

Lots of builders have used the Camaro front clip in the late 40's - early 50's bodystyle Chevy trucks, with very good results and for good reason, they weigh close to the same as the stock late 70's - early 80's Camaro. But you have to take into consideration that our model (67-72) weigh a lot more and the same benefits seen on the earlier model will not be seen on the later due to the additional weight.

If the Camaro front end design was truly superior, as some say, then the aftermarket (ECE, CPP, Fat Mans, etc) would have been on this money-making bandwagon many many years ago.

Look what the Mustang II front end did for the street rod industry.

[highboy_04]

actually a 79 z28 has a curb weight of about 3600. and a 1/2 ton 67-72 is right around 4000. so its not that much of a weight difference. i think it would handle well and look cool as hell slammed to the ground.

[Shane]

400 lbs. is not a lot of weight difference? Since when?

[bad6772]

Originally Posted by Shane

400 lbs. is not a lot of weight difference? Since when?

that is alot of weight and one thing i havent seen anybody mention(unless i missed it ) isnt the center of gravity in our trucks versus a camaro is alot different, not matter how you look at it slammed in the weeds and or lifted, i m o i would look at going with a good drop spring and spindle combo,, a big sway bar and go from there just my .02 . my 67 handles likes its on rails and as im shure many do, i just dont see the advantages of a subframe with all the suspension peices made for our trucks....just buy a drop member from porterbuilt and call it a daygood luck on any route you go

[highboy_04]

if you have fat friends you can change the weight on the springs by that much. it isnt one third less like you stated

[outlawc]

Shane, I am a little confused as to your train of thought. Basically what you are saying is that if the weight difference between the camaro and c10 are enough to make it a bad choice, but its better to use C4 corvette setup or a mustang II setup? You do realize that street rodders used the mustang II suspension not because it was a superior choice but because it is light weight, compact and has a narrow track width. A Mustang II is barely a step above a Pinto, if it is at all. Have you ever seen a Mustang II supension, pretty small and cheap.

I did a google search and here is what I came up with. The unloaded curb weight of a 1970 C10, is 3737 lbs.

Mustang II curb weight
2699 lbs. = ( 1038 lb. difference )

Corvette C4
3179 lbs. = ( 558 lb. difference )

79 Camaro Z/28
3660 lbs. = ( 77 lb. difference )

By your above statement the Camaro suspension install is a better choice than the C4 corvette simply because the weight comparison to a C10 are closer? I have riden in C10's that has this conversion, they do handle and corner ALOT better than a lowered 70's truck suspension. The fact is, C10,s where designed to haul loads and camaros where designed to perform and handle better. This conversion does make a difference. Like I said before, all I wanted to know is if anyone else had done this conversion so I could see a ride height comparison.