Make it handle

[robnolimit]

If you guys (and gals) want, i'll try to keep responding to your handling questions.

Making these trucks handle is easy at first, but the more you want to get out of it, the more work it becomes. The are several things to consider. Tires, Wheels, Weight, Suspension, Brakes, Gears, ....... Set your goals before you start, as some of the parts change the deeper you go. Also, decide how streetable you want it to stay. The more you want to pull one 'G', the stiffer it's going to get. Drop spindles are better, in general, than short springs, this helps to keep the suspension in the sweet spot. In the rear, (trailing arm) blocks are better than short springs for the first 2 inches. Then go to springs. For leaf trucks, use de-arch springs or a flip kit, no blocks. Go BIG on the sway bars. And, spend $$$ on shocks. Doetsch, KYB, or Bilstien, this is where it happens.

Give me some questions, and I'll be more specific on the details.

[LowSmoothCool]

Air Suspension! :-) ride quality and 1 g capabilities

[BHyatt]

Originally Posted by LowSmoothCool

Air Suspension! :-) ride quality and 1 g capabilities

On the cheap?

[Hottrucks]

Originally Posted by LowSmoothCool

Air Suspension! :-) ride quality and 1 g capabilities

I have this ^^^ and a front sway bar alos M/T's 31/16.5x15 in the rear with a long panard bar

[c10seconds]

Sorry guys. Im kinda new to this stuff. What are you refering to with "g" ?

[Hottrucks]

Originally Posted by c10seconds

Sorry guys. Im kinda new to this stuff. What are you refering to with "g" ?

Ummm its the sweet spot....ok all BS aside I just couldn't refuse a freebie!!

G's as in G force....the stuff that pins you to the seat or door panel when you go into a corner...its measured in G FORCE.... the more it pins you the higher the G's...a poor handling vech will slide out in a tight corner while a corvette will stick longer..( higher G) the more it sticks the High the G force the tighter it turns....

watch those guys on motorcycles you see in the balls of steel G force is what holds them up just like a pail with water in it ...if you spin the pail over your head the water will stay if you go fast enough..to slow and you take a bath

[1969~C-20~Heavy-Half]

Originally Posted by Hottrucks

Ummm its the sweet spot....ok all BS aside I just couldn't refuse a freebie!!

G's as in G force....the stuff that pins you to the seat or door panel when you go into a corner...its measured in G FORCE.... the more it pins you the higher the G's...a poor handling vech will slide out in a tight corner while a corvette will stick longer..( higher G) the more it sticks the High the G force the tighter it turns....

watch those guys on motorcycles you see in the balls of steel G force is what holds them up just like a pail with water in it ...if you spin the pail over your head the water will stay if you go fast enough..to slow and you take a bath

Yeah G force, its actually not necessarily the force holding a tight corner. Keeping you in the seat of your truck, its the equal and opposite force of gravity pushing you down back unto earth as for the faster you increase your speed. The more gravity is going to push back against you depending on your trajectory and angle of tract.

[Shane]

G = gravitational force

[c10seconds]

Thats what I was thinking, but I wasnt sure so I had to ask. Thanks for clarifying!

[N2TRUX]

Hey Rob glad to see you back again. With the growing trend toward going fast in turns over just going fast, I think this is a great topic.

I am in the process of updating my 77 to see what improvements I can gain for "spirited" street driving. I doubt that it will ever see a road course, but there are some nice winding country roads near by that I plan to take advantage of.

I have a Ride Tech Muscle bar in front now, and just added a set of their billet S/A shocks. I plan to add the same shocks in the rear, just not sure what to do about a sway bar. I have to see what will work with the Air Bar system. Any ideas?

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by N2TRUX

Hey Rob glad to see you back again. With the growing trend toward going fast in turns over just going fast, I think this is a great topic.

I am in the process of updating my 77 to see what improvements I can gain for "spirited" street driving. I doubt that it will ever see a road course, but there are some nice winding country roads near by that I plan to take advantage of.

I have a Ride Tech Muscle bar in front now, and just added a set of their billet S/A shocks. I plan to add the same shocks in the rear, just not sure what to do about a sway bar. I have to see what will work with the Air Bar system. Any ideas?

Ken, see how well things work 1st. Since trucks have a lighter rear end w/their weight distribution, a rear sway bar may only compound the natural tendency for the rear to break loose in corners.

[robnolimit]

WOW, great response. I just got home from ADAMS cart track. Tuesday night is time-attack night. Like autocross, we run two laps on the clock, then pit. Its a great place for chassis tuning, and drivers ed. Tonight I ran a personal best 48.46 sec. lap, and now beat about half of the 'Miata challenge' cars, they are the fastest, tonights best lap 46.92. So, yes, these old pick-ups can earn some respect.

I think we need to start with some vocabulary, so we all stay on the same page. I'll do my best to explain things, but i'm not to good at graphics, so if you can help, please do. I'm trying to give this some thought, so it all makes sense, and right now i'm kinda pumped after racing, so this is it for now, I hear a cold one calling

[basemodel67]

I'm in for any info.

I have heard switching the upper A-arms side to side helps, but it also moves the wheel back in the wheelwell. Any better ideas? Do tube uppers help correct factory geometry? What about swapping lower arms side to side?

Lets get super technical! ... but remember I dig holes for a living, so pictures help.

[robnolimit]

The whole goal of A arm swapping, and I don't know if this really works, is to increase positive 'Caster'. Stock C-10's spec out 1 or 2 degrees, but your truck will respond well to 6 to 7 deg, and more for the wide tire guys, bigger than 8". To my knowledge, nobody makes a set of arms to gain caster, may someone should. The trick is to move the lower ball joint forward about a 1/2", and the upper ball joint back about 7/8", this will keep the wheel centered and net about 8 deg. + caster.

First vocabulary word : PUSH. or Understeer, or to be TIGHT. this is when you turn the wheel, and you can feel the truck 'push' forward, not wanting to turn. It is very common for these trucks to push, especially with wider tires do to the factory geometry, - remember, they were work trucks, tractors with windows.
#2: LOOSE, or Oversteer, is when the truck turns MORE than you want. Usually the back is comin around. Trucks are light in the rear, so they get 'loose' easily.
So, we have two problems right from the start, a push going into the turn, and getting loose through and out of the turn. An increase in caster helps to eliminate the push. I am in favor of more caster, much more than I would like to add negative camber to solve the push. Much more than -1deg camber wears tires, feels twitchy, and increases rolling resistance.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by robnolimit

So, we have two problems right from the start, a push going into the turn, and getting loose through and out of the turn. An increase in caster helps to eliminate the push. I am in favor of more caster, much more than I would like to add negative camber to solve the push. Much more than -1deg camber wears tires, feels twitchy, and increases rolling resistance.

Agreed. I think -1° camber is about max for street vehicles w/as much caster as possible.

[dnd1978]

[QUOTE=robnolimit;4167810]The whole goal of A arm swapping, and I don't know if this really works, is to increase positive 'Caster'. Stock C-10's spec out 1 or 2 degrees, but your truck will respond well to 6 to 7 deg, and more for the wide tire guys, bigger than 8". To my knowledge, nobody makes a set of arms to gain caster, may someone should. The trick is to move the lower ball joint forward about a 1/2", and the upper ball joint back about 7/8", this will keep the wheel centered and net about 8 deg. + caster.

Robnolimit,

I just found this. Hotckis make the corrected A arm. What do you think?


http://www.hotchkis.net/search.html?...mitForm=Search

[jjzepplin]

Originally Posted by robnolimit

The whole goal of A arm swapping, and I don't know if this really works, is to increase positive 'Caster'. Stock C-10's spec out 1 or 2 degrees, but your truck will respond well to 6 to 7 deg, and more for the wide tire guys, bigger than 8". To my knowledge, nobody makes a set of arms to gain caster, may someone should. The trick is to move the lower ball joint forward about a 1/2", and the upper ball joint back about 7/8", this will keep the wheel centered and net about 8 deg. + caster.

First vocabulary word : PUSH. or Understeer, or to be TIGHT. this is when you turn the wheel, and you can feel the truck 'push' forward, not wanting to turn. It is very common for these trucks to push, especially with wider tires do to the factory geometry, - remember, they were work trucks, tractors with windows.
#2: LOOSE, or Oversteer, is when the truck turns MORE than you want. Usually the back is comin around. Trucks are light in the rear, so they get 'loose' easily.
So, we have two problems right from the start, a push going into the turn, and getting loose through and out of the turn. An increase in caster helps to eliminate the push. I am in favor of more caster, much more than I would like to add negative camber to solve the push. Much more than -1deg camber wears tires, feels twitchy, and increases rolling resistance.

I have a 73 front end. Will this work for my truck too?

[N2TRUX]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

Ken, see how well things work 1st. Since trucks have a lighter rear end w/their weight distribution, a rear sway bar may only compound the natural tendency for the rear to break loose in corners.

Scot- I agree with your thoughts. Since I plan to build a fresh 12 bolt this Winter, I want to do the research now.

[blime81]

Hey great thread!

I have been thinking about making a custom rear swaybar. Solid chromo rod with splined or squared ends running through the frame (using , clamp type tabs with a ball and socket end link to the axle (allow it to cam over so I can still lay the frame).

Now you got me thinking on this with the comment about the rear breaking loose. I'm running a triangulated 4 link with the lower links mounted close to the tires. Perhaps playing with the air pressure could pay off more than a bar?

[leftcoast66]

Love the thread. I'm about to do a frame for my c10 on bags and would love for it to handle decent so I'm looking for a bit more fun out of the truck. Any ideas on where I should start with measurements? I'll be sure to follow the camber/caster setups you recommended, any suggestions for the rear? Any input is much appreciated and I'll be sure to follow this thread as it goes along.

[oldspowered67C10]

Heres my take on it. You can have the best suspension in the world but if youre running a stock frame it wont make a **** bit of difference. You have to tie all four ends of the vehicle together which means a boxed frame at the least. Im gonna try to post a pic of my rear sway bar set-up.

[N2TRUX]

Originally Posted by oldspowered67C10

Heres my take on it. You can have the best suspension in the world but if youre running a stock frame it wont make a **** bit of difference. You have to tie all four ends of the vehicle together which means a boxed frame at the least. Im gonna try to post a pic of my rear sway bar set-up.

You may be correct for an all out track truck, but it certainly doesn't hurt to improve what the factory started with.

Tell us more about your rear sway bar. Is that a "Welder Series" bar, or what? http://www.welderseries.com

[robnolimit]

Ok, lots of choices, and matches. Or, mis-matches. A panhard rod does on thing better than other locators, and that is that it actively locates the rear roll center. In the front, a high roll center, and a low center of gravity is a good aproach. But in the back, the center of gravity is not very low, and unless you start moving things down and back, thats just the way it is. Having a low roll center will produce a good 'bite' in and out of a corner, but it produces more body roll. So, a combo of a low panhard rod and a light sway bar will give you great results. Triangulated 4-bars, while user friendly are not my favorate. They will need a sway bar to cut body roll, but you can't really induce any bite. Check out "speedway enginering" for sway bar parts and rates. Also, "race junk. com" you can find splined bars an arms from the circle and sprint crowd. If you are on stock style trailing arms, first switch to long, adjustable style panhard rod. We have them, as do others.

[leftcoast66]

Originally Posted by robnolimit

Ok, lots of choices, and matches. Or, mis-matches. A panhard rod does on thing better than other locators, and that is that it actively locates the rear roll center. In the front, a high roll center, and a low center of gravity is a good aproach. But in the back, the center of gravity is not very low, and unless you start moving things down and back, thats just the way it is. Having a low roll center will produce a good 'bite' in and out of a corner, but it produces more body roll. So, a combo of a low panhard rod and a light sway bar will give you great results. Triangulated 4-bars, while user friendly are not my favorate. They will need a sway bar to cut body roll, but you can't really induce any bite. Check out "speedway enginering" for sway bar parts and rates. Also, "race junk. com" you can find splined bars an arms from the circle and sprint crowd. If you are on stock style trailing arms, first switch to long, adjustable style panhard rod. We have them, as do others.

That's some good info. So would you suggest going with a parallel 4 link or what would you see as the ideal rear setup? I completely understand not going with a triangulated 4 link, I have one, but am looking to redo and go with a parallel or something else because of the pinion change and its affects on traction from what I understand. Any thoughts on that? Sorry I'm coming from having an IRS setup in a bmw e30 and moving towards something to build. I understand making the truck lower and what's needed, but pinion angles and ideals for traction I'm still learning.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by leftcoast66

That's some good info. So would you suggest going with a parallel 4 link or what would you see as the ideal rear setup? I completely understand not going with a triangulated 4 link, I have one, but am looking to redo and go with a parallel or something else because of the pinion change and its affects on traction from what I understand. Any thoughts on that? Sorry I'm coming from having an IRS setup in a bmw e30 and moving towards something to build. I understand making the truck lower and what's needed, but pinion angles and ideals for traction I'm still learning.

3-link would be best.