POLL: Which engine setup for Daily Driver?

[jorgensensc]

I'm posting this here because there is more traffic on this side, and it could apply to both trucks and 'burbs.

Ok guys, need your help here. I've been kicking around a bunch of different ideas, but really could use some advice here. I have a '72 Suburban 3/4 ton with a 402 Big Block and Th400 tranny. After much debate and indecision we have decided to make it my daily driver instead of getting another Suburban. Partly because we can't justify having a new 2012 Tahoe Z71, buying a 2005-06 suburban and keeping the '72 Burb. But mainly because my kids LOVE it. Particularly my youngest boys (almost 2 and almost 3 years old). They call it the Vroom Vroom (because when I start it I always goose the gas a couple of times, Vroom Vroom!). By the way, I've got 3 kids, 10 y/o, almost 3 y/o (carseat) almost 2 y/o (carseat) and another due in August (infant seat/car seat). So a car won't work and I can't do a mini van.

So in order to use it as a daily I need to do something engine wise. Money is not limitless, but my wife wants me to do what I want, not necessarily what is cheapest and least expensive. I will be using the money saved from buying an 05-06 Suburban to do the engine swap and other creature comforts (power windows, door locks, possibly factory bucket seats in the front, remote start (if I do a Fuel Injected motor), auto headlights, rearview camera). With that said I'm a bit of a cheap guy.

Mileage is a factor, but so is expense, maintenance, and reliability. I don't tow all the time, but this is a 3/4 ton so I would like to be able to do it if I decide to. I also live near the base of mountains so I do a lot of up hill driving. Also, This project needs to get done fairly quickly, as it is my daily driver. It can be down for a few weeks, but not months on end. I've done a few engine swaps myself, so I'm up to the task.

Here are my options as I see them. They all have pros and cons, thats why I am paralyzed with indecision right now.

Option 1: Freshen the 402 BB in it now, add 454 TBI system (not sure how expensive or feasible that really is, and add used Gear Vendors Overdrive to the th400 I already have in it that is in great shape. The gas mileage probably won't be awesome, but its better than what I get now. I like this idea because it seems the cheapest and it retains the originality of the 402 Big Block.

Option 2: 5.3 (or 6.0) with overdrive tranny (4l65e, 4l80e). This seems to be a good middle of the road idea. Have to deal with the electronic speedo and my mechanical gauges, but the rest seems relatively simple. Not sure that the cost will offset the mileage gains (wifes new 2wd 2012 Z71 Tahoe with 5.3 gets about 12-13 mpg where we live) but its better than what I get now. Don't like that my truck won't be a 402 anymore, have to remove that badges or I will feel like a poseur with Big Block Badging and a 5.3 inside.

Option 3: Duramax swap with either Allison or 4l85e tranny. LOVE this idea, however it can be a timely and very expensive swap. I don't know much about diesels so mechanically I'm in new territory. The Allison tranny will require major rework of tranny tunnel, where as the 4l85e from a detuned van with D-Max will fit relatively easily. I love the idea of the D-Max being a 6.6 also (402) so my badging would stay correct. The fuel mileage would also be pretty good. I'm not planning on hopping it up so I think the detuned D'max with 4l85e will work fine for me, but some might say make the Allison work. This is by far the most expensive option as far as I can see. Also, I think maintenance on Diesels is a little more expensive?

So what do you guys think? Opinions and advice welcomed and desired!!! Thanks in advance for your help!!

Shawn

[Zoomin]

I voted #1, but mostly because I'm curious to see what you can wring out of that combo. The diesel thing is expensive, plus it costs more per gallon. Looooooong payout for that option.

[Ol Blue K20]

I also voted one, it would be interesting what kind of mileage increases occur, also seems like the quickest and most economical to complete

[Stocker]

If budget & time didn't matter, I'd say #3, because I see Duramax / Allison as a great long-term powertrain. All things considered though, #1 gets the nod. Should be fairly easy to do and sounds like a really good setup.

[JVictor75]

I voted #1 as well, as that's basically what I'm doing.

That being said, it will potentially be at least as expensive as an LS swap (to include the price of the powertrain and wiring), if not as expensive as the diesel.

I'm basically having my 396 rebuilt with a roller valvetrain (full roller rockers, mild roller cam). Parts total is nearing $2500 with a new intake, roller cam, roller rockers, fuel pump, rings, gaskets, bearings, and accessory drives (GMPP BBC Serpentine system). Your build probably won't that expensive, but it won't be free either.

Why not look into getting a 4L80E rebuilt with a stand alone computer behind the 402?

That will be at least as strong as the TH400 with a lot more driveability in the long run, and when/if you do decide to swap in the LS motor you will already have the transmission.

Pretty sure you could pick up a 4L80E and the standalone harness for less than a GV overdrive.

Might also want to look at your rear differential if you're thinking about mileage/driveability.

[jhwkns]

Have you considered aftermarket F.I.? Holley, Edelbrock?

[jocko]

I also voted #1

i do agree with jvictor and jhwkns' comments -

1) I think you'd come out ahead with a beefy O/D trans vice a GV O/U. They aren't cheap, and to me, splitting any of the gears other than the highest is kind of a waste (having said that, most folks tend to use them for splitting only the high gear to use it as a "rich man's" overdrive.

2) I also think you might end up with a more efficient system by going with aftermarket EFI (carb plate type, like Holley or EZ-EFI, etc) on the stock manifold, etc. Cost will probably be a bit more than a retrofitted TBI, but it would be infinitely more tunable and probably more efficient and reliable.

Just my 2 cents.

Btw, a close second was the 5.3 with 4L65 setup - that is a very tried and true, and efficient approach (since your goal is a reliable daily driver). It's an inexpensive approach.

As for the diesels, I'd only go down that road if you really need that massive reserve of torque. Retrofitting a diesel won't be a value-holder like a factory diesel truck is nowadays.

I also think there is something to be said for keeping it original (as in, option #1, I mean keeping the original engine and adding EFI, etc), especially since your starting with a big block truck. Looking forward to see which way you lean!

[RWB-713]

5.3 w/ 4l65e. not the 4l80. Less rotating mass inside the 65, so it'll take less power to turn it. And ease. lots of options out there now for LS swaps. I don't ever see you getting great fuel mileage out of a BB, plus, personally I feel BB's are very overrated (no offense), especially ones that are low enough displacement to easily achieve with a SB.

D-max with an allsion would be AWESOME, if that is realistically in your budget, timeframe,mechanical knowledge. and will power. But detuning a D-max in an application like yours, just seems......wrong.

[BrutonLS1]

Originally Posted by RWB-713

5.3 w/ 4l65e. not the 4l80. Less rotating mass inside the 65, so it'll take less power to turn it. And ease. lots of options out there now for LS swaps. I don't ever see you getting great fuel mileage out of a BB, plus, personally I feel BB's are very overrated (no offense), especially ones that are low enough displacement to easily achieve with a SB.

D-max with an allsion would be AWESOME, if that is realistically in your budget, timeframe,mechanical knowledge. and will power. But detuning a D-max in an application like yours, just seems......wrong.

X2
The 5.3 is a fairly easy swap if converted to carbureation. They are quite plentiful as well. Good gas milage, good power, and good dependability.
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[jorgensensc]

Thanks for the input so far guys. I hadn't really considered the 4l80e option with the big block. How much does something like that with a stand alone controller run? Then I still have the speedo issue to overcome. I'm currently looking at a used gear vendors unit that is in great shape for 1000.00. I don't think I could justify the expense of a new one.
Also which aftermarket fuel injection system could I get for a good price, possibly used. The ones I was looking at before we're running in the 1500-2500 range new.
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[prostreetC-10]

496 with M-22



Yes...I'm biased.

[Fitz]

Originally Posted by jorgensensc

I'm posting this here because there is more traffic on this side, and it could apply to both trucks and 'burbs.

Ok guys, need your help here. I've been kicking around a bunch of different ideas, but really could use some advice here. I have a '72 Suburban 3/4 ton with a 402 Big Block and Th400 tranny. After much debate and indecision we have decided to make it my daily driver instead of getting another Suburban. Partly because we can't justify having a new 2012 Tahoe Z71, buying a 2005-06 suburban and keeping the '72 Burb. But mainly because my kids LOVE it. Particularly my youngest boys (almost 2 and almost 3 years old). They call it the Vroom Vroom (because when I start it I always goose the gas a couple of times, Vroom Vroom!). By the way, I've got 3 kids, 10 y/o, almost 3 y/o (carseat) almost 2 y/o (carseat) and another due in August (infant seat/car seat). So a car won't work and I can't do a mini van.

So in order to use it as a daily I need to do something engine wise. Money is not limitless, but my wife wants me to do what I want, not necessarily what is cheapest and least expensive. I will be using the money saved from buying an 05-06 Suburban to do the engine swap and other creature comforts (power windows, door locks, possibly factory bucket seats in the front, remote start (if I do a Fuel Injected motor), auto headlights, rearview camera). With that said I'm a bit of a cheap guy.

Mileage is a factor, but so is expense, maintenance, and reliability. I don't tow all the time, but this is a 3/4 ton so I would like to be able to do it if I decide to. I also live near the base of mountains so I do a lot of up hill driving. Also, This project needs to get done fairly quickly, as it is my daily driver. It can be down for a few weeks, but not months on end. I've done a few engine swaps myself, so I'm up to the task.

Here are my options as I see them. They all have pros and cons, thats why I am paralyzed with indecision right now.

Option 1: Freshen the 402 BB in it now, add 454 TBI system (not sure how expensive or feasible that really is, and add used Gear Vendors Overdrive to the th400 I already have in it that is in great shape. The gas mileage probably won't be awesome, but its better than what I get now. I like this idea because it seems the cheapest and it retains the originality of the 402 Big Block.

Option 2: 5.3 (or 6.0) with overdrive tranny (4l65e, 4l80e). This seems to be a good middle of the road idea. Have to deal with the electronic speedo and my mechanical gauges, but the rest seems relatively simple. Not sure that the cost will offset the mileage gains (wifes new 2wd 2012 Z71 Tahoe with 5.3 gets about 12-13 mpg where we live) but its better than what I get now. Don't like that my truck won't be a 402 anymore, have to remove that badges or I will feel like a poseur with Big Block Badging and a 5.3 inside.

Option 3: Duramax swap with either Allison or 4l85e tranny. LOVE this idea, however it can be a timely and very expensive swap. I don't know much about diesels so mechanically I'm in new territory. The Allison tranny will require major rework of tranny tunnel, where as the 4l85e from a detuned van with D-Max will fit relatively easily. I love the idea of the D-Max being a 6.6 also (402) so my badging would stay correct. The fuel mileage would also be pretty good. I'm not planning on hopping it up so I think the detuned D'max with 4l85e will work fine for me, but some might say make the Allison work. This is by far the most expensive option as far as I can see. Also, I think maintenance on Diesels is a little more expensive?

So what do you guys think? Opinions and advice welcomed and desired!!! Thanks in advance for your help!!

Shawn

You didn't consider the option I would have picked:
A 6.2L LS motor tied to your existing turbo 400 and the Gear Vendors OD unit. The TH400 is more than strong enough and with that OD unit the combo is MUCH stronger than the 4l65e or 4l80e AND you won't need to fool with it's controller. Switching to fuel injection on your existing 402 but that would likely have to be an open loop system which will never give the fuel economy or driveability of a closed loop EFI like any of the LS motors.

[RWB-713]

Originally Posted by Fitz

You didn't consider the option I would have picked:
A 6.2L LS motor tied to your existing turbo 400 and the Gear Vendors OD unit. The TH400 is more than strong enough and with that OD unit the combo is MUCH stronger than the 4l65e or 4l80e AND you won't need to fool with it's controller. Switching to fuel injection on your existing 402 but that would likely have to be an open loop system which will never give the fuel economy or driveability of a closed loop EFI like any of the LS motors.

[jorgensensc]

Okay guys. Thanks for all the input so far. Lets see if this changes anyones mind at all:
Called around and got a few prices for setups:

2006 Duramax with Allison with less than 60k miles with anything I need off the truck for 7000.00

5.3 and 6.0 with tranny with about 80k miles runs about 3000-3500 depending on miles and which engine.

6.2 by itself with no tranny, 4500, with tranny 5500.

Does that sway anyone at all? I'm sure tempted for the Duramax!!! Where can I find an exact parts list of what I may need for the d-max swap. I've looked all over the web and I keep running into things like "engine, tranny, various wiring harnesses" but no one says exactly what is needed! Any help would be appreciated!!
Thanks Again!!
Shawn

[JVictor75]

Originally Posted by jorgensensc

Okay guys. Thanks for all the input so far. Lets see if this changes anyones mind at all:
Called around and got a few prices for setups:

2006 Duramax with Allison with less than 60k miles with anything I need off the truck for 7000.00

5.3 and 6.0 with tranny with about 80k miles runs about 3000-3500 depending on miles and which engine.

6.2 by itself with no tranny, 4500, with tranny 5500.

Does that sway anyone at all? I'm sure tempted for the Duramax!!! Where can I find an exact parts list of what I may need for the d-max swap. I've looked all over the web and I keep running into things like "engine, tranny, various wiring harnesses" but no one says exactly what is needed! Any help would be appreciated!!
Thanks Again!!
Shawn

From what I've seen those prices for the LS engine swap set are way high, at least for some of the larger metropolitan areas in the South and Southwest.

It will take some digging, and maybe some befriending a couple of people at the various junkyards/salvage yards in your area, but I think I remember seeing a complete 5.3l/4l60E setup go for between $1500 - $2500, with wiring, accessory drives, and computer.

That being said, I think the best bang for your buck in this case would be the Duramax/Allison.

That's an almost unbeatable combination and I love mine. For $7K you could get the complete running gear and suspension of the truck, and whatever you didn't use you could sell. Potentially this could mean a complete diesel swap into your Burb for less than the cost (according to your prices) of an LS swap.

It will probably take longer than you would like, and will most assuredly be more work. But the outcome will more closely match your stated desires.

Yes the maintenance is more costly, but it is also not needed nearly as often.

Somebody else needs to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the engine/transmission might still be covered under a powertrain warranty from GM. Something to think and potentially make phone calls about.

I would consider potentially harming innocent puppies for a 3/4ton classic Burb with a D-Max and an Allison.

An LS conversion would be nice, a modern Duramax/Allison conversion into a classic Burb would be bad ass.

Just saying. And I'm probably not the only one.

Yes, I know this almost completely contradicts my input from earlier in the thread. That was before you found a complete 60K mile Duramax and Aliison (with all the wiring, computers, accessory drives, suspension, and drivetrain) for $7K!

Edit: Diesel power Mag write up (no technical/installation info) on a Duramax/Allison in a '70 SWB!
http://www.dieselpowermag.com/featur...ich_tires.html

Board member '72duraburb's 72 Suburban with Duramax/Allison
http://www.67-72chevytrucks.com/vboa...d.php?t=472138

[RWB-713]

Originally Posted by JVictor75

I would consider potentially harming innocent puppies for a 3/4ton classic Burb with a D-Max and an Allison.

Just saying. And I'm probably not the only one.

hmmm... can they be poodles? I'm in.

[jorgensensc]

Here are a couple of pics of the 'Burb to help you make your choice!

[GASoline71]

A 6.0L with the 4L80E would be dope in that rig.

The 402, albeit a great old engine, is long in the tooth. It's easily upgraded with a drop in 454. Which will use the same motor mounts, and bolt right up to the TH400. You can spend just as much (or more) building a 396/402 than you can a 454. A stock 454 can walk all over a mildly built 402. Especially in the area of torque. Which is what you're gonna want in that big ol' Suburban. But heck... you can still badge the 454 as a 402, and it will take a keen eye to notice the difference.

Gary

[So.Cal.Super]

Originally Posted by GASoline71

A 6.0L with the 4L80E would be dope in that rig.

The 402, albeit a great old engine, is long in the tooth. It's easily upgraded with a drop in 454. Which will use the same motor mounts, and bolt right up to the TH400. You can spend just as much (or more) building a 396/402 than you can a 454. A stock 454 can walk all over a mildly built 402. Especially in the area of torque. Which is what you're gonna want in that big ol' Suburban. But heck... you can still badge the 454 as a 402, and it will take a keen eye to notice the difference.

Gary

this is what I would do, I went the 454 route instead of wasting money in the 402 and ended building what I wanted. the 496 I have the th400 and am only keeping it for now since it was overhauled 10k miles ago. I just had a torque converter built for the setup. I am thinking a 4l80 will be in my future for overdrive. I have looked at the gear vendors. there shop is 5 mins from my house. nice looking pieces, I just don't want to spend the 3k on a new one. The funny thing is the few transmission shops i have mentioned them to in town won't recommend them.

I would love the 6l80 in my wifes yukon... she might notice if it goes missing though

good luck.

I wanted to ask, whats your rear gearing? 4:10 , how about dropping them down to a 3:73?

[GASoline71]

Originally Posted by So.Cal.Super

I would love the 6l80 in my wifes yukon... she might notice if it goes missing though

I have a 6.0L mated to a 4L80E in my '06 Silverado 2500HD. I would love for that engine and tranny combo to find it's way into my '72!

Gary

[prostreetC-10]

LOVE the car seats! This is one of my most favorite pics of my truck taken a couple years back. This was the first time he was able to get in the truck and endure the noise without crying.

[mrolds88]

I voted for the dmax/ally combo. Just like them. However from the point of finances goes,I would do a combo of 402/4l80E setup. You could get the whole thing out of a 91-93. You would have all the computer stuff,the fuel stuff and the trans/wiring for that too. Heck, the exhaust manifolds might even work (O2 sensor). Use all off the shelf stuff so on a trip,you could get parts in a snap. And if you pick up the right parts vehicle, you might wind up with other stuff you could use.
My first truck was a 72 GMC C2500. It has a 402/TH400 combo. (I still own it 24 years later) That thing had power. even with 136,000 on it. I like the idea of adding injection to it and using an overdrive. Since the 4L80E is nothing more than a 400 with overdrive added. The only driveline mod that would be needed would be to cut the froint driveshaft and slide the trans crossmember back.

[70cst]

I voted #1
There is just something special about a 402

[PanelDeland]

I would do the 402 or a 454 with EFI and an AOD.I think the bang for the buck is best this way.The late model swap has some problems that can be solved but take a bit o'$$$$.The Dura/Ally will also be costly and may not be deasable in time constraints.Even the AOD and EFI will set you back more than you will recover in a lot of miles with fuel savings.

[eagleuh1]

Why not got with sequential fuel injection on the 402. Buy an aluminum manifold and weld in bungs for FI's. Use a megasquirt controller. Few sensors required. No changes in guages. Better drivability, milage, reliability. Fewer changes required to your vehicle. My second choice would be the 5.3 and 4l60e, mainly because this is what I did to my 68 C20.