Help me build a Raptor killer

[JimJones]

I want to build a C10 that is the classic equitant of a modern day Ford Raptor. Something that keeps most of the style and mechanical components of old but has modern day capabilities. Something that can unquestionably hold its own in any situation but also be fun and reliable to drive. And most importantly something that doesn't break down every other week.

Check out this vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF2lg06Xfh0

I love this truck. I haven't been able to stop thinking about it since I first saw this vid last summer. I want my finished truck to look very similar to this. But I want to upgrade some of the mechanical components to make it more fun to drive. I mean what's the point of spending 50k fixing up an old truck when at the end of the day it drives and handles like a 50 year old truck.

I need your guy's advice on what parts you would use to set this up. For me engine and tranny choice is easy. I'm planning on running a GM crate 427 and a 700r4 tranny what I need the most help with is axels and transfer cases including the parts that go inside of them like axel shafts, differentials, lockers and all the little parts that go inside of them like bearings and what not.
What axels front and rear would you choose if you were planning on 500hp and 33-35" tires? And what parts would you stuff inside of them?

Same thing with the suspension and this is the is the most important part of making a 50 year old truck be able to hold its own with a Raptor or modern day 4x4. What kind of suspension set up will be able to do what I want? Just putting new shocks and bushings on a 50 year old C10 is not going to give me the ride and handling I'm after. What kind of suspension mods are out there for 4x4 C10's?
For years I was into early Broncos and there is a plethora of aftermarket companies out there that make all kinds of suspension mods for them are there any companies out there that do the same for C10's?

Short list of stuff I want on the truck
4x4, Longbed, GM crate 427, 700r4, 4 wheel disc brakes, Front and rear axles with lockers that can withstand 500hp & 33" - 35" tire smoking burnouts and fishtails without snapping. And basically be able to have a finished truck that will last 100k mi without any major repair bills. I'm not going to thru the trouble and hassle of having this thing built to have to deal with going to the shop ever week to have something worked on. I want everything to be as bullet proof as possible.
So what parts and components would you guys go with? I appreciate any suggestions you guys have

[hugger6933]

The crated 427, is that a ls based motor or an old rat? If it is an old rat as much as I love them and plan on them on 2 of my 3 current builds forget that. Got a ls based motor. You can make 600 hp easy heck you can come real close to your power goal with a stock bottom end 6.0 motor and a cam swap. As far as the tranny goes forget 700R4 it is fine in a 90 model pickup or a 70 model for that matter. When we are talking the hp range over the 400 mark start thinking about a built 4L80E. They can be built to take a lot of abuse and power. They also can be configured into a six speed automatic. Now for the axles and stuff either 9 inch or Dana 60 stuff from Moser . They are top notch people to deal with. Hope that helps you with something to think about and maybe research. Jim

[whitels1]

Originally Posted by hugger6933

The crated 427, is that a ls based motor or an old rat? If it is an old rat as much as I love them and plan on them on 2 of my 3 current builds forget that. Got a ls based motor. You can make 600 hp easy heck you can come real close to your power goal with a stock bottom end 6.0 motor and a cam swap. As far as the tranny goes forget 700R4 it is fine in a 90 model pickup or a 70 model for that matter. When we are talking the hp range over the 400 mark start thinking about a built 4L80E. They can be built to take a lot of abuse and power. They also can be configured into a six speed automatic. Now for the axles and stuff either 9 inch or Dana 60 stuff from Moser . They are top notch people to deal with. Hope that helps you with something to think about and maybe research. Jim

This is a good info, althought I would go 14B FF and Dana 60. The problem is when you build something to do two things the more it's good at one thing the less it is at another. Kind of like an enduro motorcycle. You can update the suspension all you want but a solid axle truck will always drive like a solid axle truck. For offroad if you are serious about it figure out what type of terrain you will be driving on. Any modifications you do with the front axle other than leaf sprung will require serious modification, but in the end be worth it.

I would not compromise on the engine tranny, I would loose the carburetor and go EFI, L92 attached to a 6l80, attached to a divorced 205... mmmmmmm..... That's just me.

You can check out my build thread link, I have a baby 10.4:1 compression 5.3 great drivability and it can get it, ohh and 15mpg!

[jorgensensc]

Hmmm. 50k, I'm going duramax and Allison all day long!! Isn't it funny how anytime someone is selling a truck and the AC doesn't work it always 'just needs a charge'. If that was all it ever was then why not charge it so the AC works. Always makes me laugh.
Shawn

[JimJones]

This is the motor I want. No compromises on this.
http://www.chevroletperformance.com/...l.jsp?engine=4

As far as the tranny I was leaning towards a 700r4 because I don’t want any computers on this truck. I'm not an expert but I think with a 4L80E you have to have some kind of computer to make it work. Can a 700r4 be built to handle this kind of power? And if so by whom?

[hugger6933]

Jim if your wanting to go without computers, you may have to give up some of the dream on reliability and durability because pcms and such make that possible as much as I don't want to admit it. You may have to give up the 700R4 idea and go with a turbo 400,wait with a gear vendors over -under drive unit. With that you can then again have a close ratio six speed auto with a over drive to help that big ol motor relax a bit. Also I think you can operate those from a dash switch so you can do away with a computer there. I know more options, Jim

[JimJones]

Originally Posted by hugger6933

Jim if your wanting to go without computers, you may have to give up some of the dream on reliability and durability because pcms and such make that possible as much as I don't want to admit it. You may have to give up the 700R4 idea and go with a turbo 400,wait with a gear vendors over -under drive unit. With that you can then again have a close ratio six speed auto with a over drive to help that big ol motor relax a bit. Also I think you can operate those from a dash switch so you can do away with a computer there. I know more options, Jim

hugger can you elaborate more? I thought that with the gear vendors unit it gives you an extra "overdrive" gear thus making your 3 speed Turbo 400 a 4 speed how would you get a 6 speed out of this set up.
And do you think that the gear vendors overdrive with a Turbo 400 would be stronger than a 700r4

[leftybass209]

You're starting with a c10 so you already win. Just fab a ridiculous grill that says C-TEN across the front and you'll be all set.

[leftybass209]

In all honesty though I'm lost on you wanting reliability and driveability and firm on the 427. It's a great motor, but the horsepower numbers climb and reliability and driveability go down.

[mmiddle]

If your budget is 50k.... I would go LSA E-Rod and a new 4L85E. It will out perform that 427Rat all day long and great mileage to boot. Then add cruise control. I love the Old School mills, but you just cannot beat the LSx engines.
Check it out here http://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet-Perf...57460/10002/-1

[dirtyjim]

one of the things you will have to do if you want to even compete with the raptors much less kill them is custom long travel suspension and coil overs. at the minimum you'll want 4 links front and rear. you will also need the body mods to go along with the long travel.

[JimJones]

Originally Posted by dirtyjim

one of the things you will have to do if you want to even compete with the raptors much less kill them is custom long travel suspension and coil overs. at the minimum you'll want 4 links front and rear. you will also need the body mods to go along with the long travel.

dirty jim
Can you elaborate more? What does 4 links mean? And who would you look to for a custom long travel suspension set up?

I want a bad ass suspension but I hate the "pre runner" style fenders. I want to keep the body original but get the most suspension travel that I can with the stock body.

[Prematuregrey]

You would honestly be better off building the crap out of a late model with long travel and engine mods then retrofit the body you want onto it. Honestly there won't be much factory lines left anyway after cutting for clearance and travel. Raptors and our trucks are in a different sport so no point trying to compete with our stuff. Our era of trucks are old trucks and will always be old trucks. Not that you are stuck with them driving like they came off the assembly line, its just that you won't have much left of the original vehicle when its all said and done. If you want a Raptor killer though, your best bet is to long travel a new Tundra and slap a blower on the 5.7L. Its not like a Ford truck is setting the bar high anyways go jump one of those a couple times and see how well it drives afterwards. I've launched (more than a few feet) my Toyota more times than I can count and it still goes great down the road.

[Spartan]

...or you could buy a jeep srt. That's a raptor killer. More off road support too.
I wasn't impressed with the raptor off road. Did good on a washboard road but in steep twisty with moisture it was unwieldy. IMHO

[marvgarr68]

You will not accomplish your goal with a 427/400 unless you trailer it around. It will not be enjoyable around town and will eat gas to a point where you cant drive it. You have 3 options here #1 6.0 ls 4l80e easy set up wiring harness from summit and some mods pretty easy #2 5.9 Cummins with I cant remember what they are auto with some mods will be a powerfull machine #3 duramax and allison auto this will be the most complicated swap.

[Vova]

Put in a 5.9 cummins / nv4500. Amazing milage and will last forever.

[JimJones]

Let me clarify a little bit.
When I say Raptor killer I don’t have intensions to do to this truck some of the crazy stuff you see people doing with their Raptors on YouTube. The completed truck will mostly be a street truck with some trail use. No jumping, driving thru mud bogs that are as deep as the top of the doors or anything crazy like that.

But I really want the suspension capabilities of something better than a leaf sprung solid front axle. There has to be some kind of suspension upgrades out there for these trucks that don’t require hacking up the body?


How bad will the mileage be with the 427 with an overdrive tranny around town? Do you guys think I'd be able to pull at least 10-12mpg out of it?

[68 TT]

Originally Posted by JimJones

How bad will the mileage be with the 427 with an overdrive tranny around town? Do you guys think I'd be able to pull at least 10-12mpg out of it?

I love the 427 rat motor and have had them in four different cars now but a 500 hp 427 is far from docile and will not be anywhere near fuel efficient. My 70 Chevelle made 504 hp at the flywheel with a big valve oval port 427 built very similar to the ZZ427/480 crate motor but with a more aggressive solid cam and it got 10.5 mpg on the freeway and 8 in the city with 3.31 gears in a more aerodynamic car that weighed 3900 pounds. A lifted 5000 pound 4x4 truck with 35's and a 500 hp 427 is way south of 10.5 probably closer to 7 or 8 mpg even with overdrive.

[JimJones]

Let me add
This will a retirement truck for me. I plan on retiring out of the country and having the truck shipped to me. So this is one of the reasons I stated that reliability must be PRIORTY #1. Where I'm going there are no speed shops and no UPS man to make deliveries from Summit or Jegs. The finished product has to be as reliable and long lasting as a new truck fresh from the dealer. Where I'm going they are no repair shops and no parts for these trucks.

As far as the tranny goes a manual is not out of the running. I actually think the truck would be more fun to drive with a manual/427 combo. I just slightly lean towards the ease of drivability of the auto. Also it would probably be cheaper and easier to find a 5 or 6 speed that will be able to handle the power of the 427. The hardest part would be figuring out a bomb proof clutch set up

I basically want the truck in the video above with a bomb proof drive line and suspension that makes the truck fun to drive and not feel ever pot hole in the road.

[jorgensensc]

Ok, so I need to ask a few questions, try not to be offended, they are not meant in that way.
First off, how mechanically inclined are you? You sound like you have some high aspirations, and have read a few things about what the best parts for horsepower are out there, but not necessarily what will work together for your application.
Second, are you building this yourself? because I have to tell you if you are having someone build it for you? You can only figure 25k in truck and parts, labor is going to eat you alive on a custom build.
Third, where are you retiring that doesn't have much support? The ls type engines are global and make troubleshooting much easier world wide. If you definitely want a carb based 427, then you will have to make sure either you or someone where you are going knows how to truly tune a carb. As for 10-12 mpg, not on your life with the 427, even with overdrive. Not unless you are doing an economical tune on the carb (there goes your horsepower), or going downhill in both directions. If your talking 500 HP, You will be lucky to get 10 mpg on the freeway cruising. You might be able to get about 14 mpg on the freeway in an ls motor making 500 hp. For reference, my 2012 tahoe with 5.3 gets combined 13.9 mpg up and down hills here in california. It could probably do better on flat land, but its not anywhere near 500 hp, and its got a 6 speed automatic. The 402 big block that was in my '72 suburban got around 6mpg here. I just swapped it out with an escalade 6.2 with 6 speed auto and don't have good numbers yet after my dyno tune as far as gas mileage, but before the tune (ran ok, not really very peppy) on the hiway to the tune shop I got around 18 mpg. Just using these things as a reference for you.
You really need to do some soul searching and decide exactly what you want this truck to do. Just my worthless .02.
Shawn

[americanmusc1e]

I'm in the middle of a k10 build right now and I have a couple of thoughts for your raptor killer:

1. Big-block 4x4s were rare from the factory due to the engine setback for the front axle. you can put a big block in a 67-72 4x4 but it's not fun at all to work on. Yukon Jack documented some of that on his page. http://yuk0njack.com/bigblockfitmentweb.html

2. Weight over the front axle. I'd go small block. 1st gen, 2nd gen, 3rd gen or 4th gen it doesn't matter. the truck will handle much better and with the proper transmission/gearing combo it won't matter unless you are drag racing. big-blocks and diesels add weight over the front axle which will degrade offroad performance in a lot of cases. I don't particularly care for LS swaps that much, but if you want the most reliability and power that's what you need. you can even leave it carbed if you want.

3. I wouldn't trust a 700r4. especially not behind a big block. I've never seen one hold up to any level of torque. my 383 small block killed quite a few. 4L80e, th400, and the nv4500 manual are considered bulletproof. the SM465 is too, but its not for driving fast.


4. if you want the best. its going to be a 14bff for the back and a Dana60 for the front. the drawbacks for these axles are they are heavy, but for 500hp and 35's you can leave them pretty much stock and not break them. Another option would be a 14bsf (14 bolt semi-float) and 10 bolt front. the 10 bolt will most likely need better axle shafts.

5. before you knock leaf springs off your list call ORD and tell them what you are trying to do and see what they say. Those folks know pretty much the best of what you can do to older chevys. http://offroaddesign.com/


6. The frames on these trucks flex. A LOT. consider adding frame reinforcements and/or a cage.

7. I'd do a NP205 for the transfer case. there are other options, but the 205 is pretty much unbreakable and easy to get parts for.

[JimJones]

Let me try to respond to a few different posts at once:

I am somewhat mechanically inclined. I grew up working on small block Fords but I have had nothing but modern vehicles for the last 20 years so it's been a while since I've really turned any wrenches. I used to know how to tune my old Autolite 2 barrel carbs and set points and basic stuff like that but in all honesty it's been years and I would not feel comfortable messing around with such hi dollar equipment without adult supervision.



I have no intensions of trying to build this myself. I have neither the time, tools, shop or skills to accomplish a finished product of the caliber that I want.

I appreciate all the recommendations towards a fuel injected motor but there is just something about an old vehicle with a carbureted lumpy cam that just makes my heart skip a beat. It's kind of like watching a beautiful woman walk down the road or drinking a cold beer in the afternoon hard to put words on but there is just something about it that says all is right with the world.

Currently I'm in the research phase. I recently paid off my auto loan and have decided that the money I was spending on car payments will go into a special account to save up to build the C10 of my dreams. These trucks have been my favorite style of pickups for pretty much my whole life. One of my lifelong goals has been to fix up a classic C10.

I'm not dead set on anything right now but my current truck is rated at 400hp and it holds its own for a truck that is why I would like at least at a minimum 400hp on my C10 build thus why I am so instant on the GM crate 427. Also I would slightly prefer an auto over a manual tranny.

I was curious as to what you guys would say about the frames on these trucks. I was wondering myself about the strength of this because they are not fully boxed they seem like they might be weaker than the modern frames. Do you guys think some extra cross members will be enough?

I was thinking that a 10 bolt for the front might be better to simply save some weight thus allowing for better handling. The front end is already going to be heavy enough and any weight I can save off the front end will allow for better handling. Can they be built to handle some abuse? I would love to run a 10 bolt front if it could be built to handle the power of the 427 and take some abuse.
Why would you say that a 14bolt for the back and a Dana 60 for the front would be best? Why not Dana 60's front and rear?

My intended use will mostly be semi rough dirt roads nothing too serious but I don’t want to have to baby this thing. I want it built strong enough to be able to handle going over rough washed out roads without having to slow down to a snail's pace to cross. I want to be able to blast over rough washed out roads without worrying about breaking any fragile parts. Also I want to be able to do burnouts and fishtails on wet and dry pavement and dirt without worrying about breaking anything.

If I went with a Turbo 400 with the Gear Vendors overdrive how will that affect the drive shaft angle? I hate the look of a huge jacked up truck with a big old drive shaft bouncing off the ground. This probably depends on the amount of lift. In all honesty I would like the least amount of lift necessary to allow proper suspension flex with 33"-35" tires. I love the look and stance of the truck in the video above. What size tires do you guys think its running? I think they are closer to 33's rather than 35's. As I stated earlier I want something that is fun to drive and carrying around a step ladder to get in and out of the thing is not my idea of fun.

Do the guys at the above linked site "offroad design" do complete builds?

Can you guys explain a couple of terms for me?
What does 4 link suspension mean and what's the difference between full float and semi float rear end?

[leftybass209]

If you are still in the research phase you are a long way off from finding out about pinion angles, no offense. You need to know actual suspension height, and have engine and transmission installed with mounts before you can get an idea of pinion angle. If I were you, I'd drop the "raptor killer" idea and go with a nice reliable truck. Once you insert that phrase you put a lot of pressure on your build and we gear our answers according to what is better than a raptor-not equal. The word killer suggests a vehicle far superior in every way in my mind.

[mmiddle]

Ok, this clears things up a little.... Your OP lead me (at least) in thinking you where wanting a desert runner/stadium truck that you planned to beat the crap out of.

I can't speak to the 4x4 part as that is not my interest or forte, but I do know engines. IMHO: there are better ways to make 500hp than the 427Rat, but it certainly is a great way to do it. I think a big block is a lot of extra weight on the front axle, but it is your truck and I respect that.

Good luck and enjoy pre-retirement planning.

[americanmusc1e]

After coming to understand your situation some more I think the best thing that you can do is first find the shop that is going to build the truck and seek the opinion of a professional.

You completely specing out a vehicle based on the opinion of different people on the internet is a bad idea. You want this to be new vehicle quality and imo the entire key to a perfectly functioning and reliable vehicle is that the sum of the parts add up to much greater than their own merit. In other words, the best parts in the world, if mismatched will be no better than properly matched mediocre parts. This one internet thread cannot supply you with near enough information to make a good decision, and taking ideas from totally different people and mixing them together will also end in failure. As a novice you would need to spend a couple months researching this to understand it enough to get a good idea of what you need.

A better idea would be as follows: Ask around on here for recommendations on good local shops. Pick a couple of them and call them with your plans and see what they say. Then post the results back here and we can help you sort through them.

and to answer your questions.

semi-float axles are used more in half-ton applications. they are relatively weaker than full float, can be harder to replace parts on quickly, but they are lighter. Full float have the additional advantage of putting no weight on the axle shaft itself. In the end the choice comes down to the tire size and intended use.

You can make a 10bolt strong enough for this application. the weak link on the 10b front diffs is the axle joints and axle shafts themselves. there are aftermarket HD replacements, but they cost as much as replacing the axle with a D60.

as far as 14bff vs D60 rear. It really doesn't matter. the 14bolt is cheaper and easier to find, but a D60, D70, F0rd 9" or Eaton H052 would also work just fine.