1985 4x4 Crate Engine Swap old school 350 or Vortec 350

[nbrfd007]

Need to put an engine in my 84 4x4, 305 at this time. Thinking of ordering a GM crate engine. Would it be better to put a carbureted Vortec in it or go back with a regular 350? Much problems with the updated Vortec motor swap?
Thanks,
Tim

[Ziegelsteinfaust]

Go vortec more torque under the curve, and a roller cam. Which is suitable for today's zinc free oils.

I want one for my 4x4 build with full bolt-ons, and maybe a slightly bigger cam. I fantasize about a turbo, but it would likely kill parts.

[slug]

For a vortec You will most likely need a electric fuel pump and a regulator with a return line. Everythin else should bolt right up with the exception of the intake.

[cfan10]

Vortex without a doubt...thinking of doing a 5.7 in my 10 cheap and easy to come by, junkyards are full of them. Really want a 5.3 but with my budget right now...

[naphtali5725]

why not have a custom engine built… can get one just as cheap or cheaper than a vortex or standard chevy crate motor from GM… better components, stronger, will last longer etc. thats's what i would do, (it's what I did) use the savings for something else for your truck

[Jake Wade]

Please fellas, its Vortec.

[naphtali5725]

Originally Posted by Jake Wade

Please fellas, its Vortec.

blah, ok Vortec… still would be cheaper to have a custom engine built...

[wideopen1967]

I'm building a small block 400 with Vortec heads. Similar to these,

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/...k-chevy-build/


http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/...-block-engine/


http://www.hotrod.com/events/coverag...c-small-block/

[rich weyand]

I went with the base 350 crate and cammed it for torque. No other changes.

New engine, lots of torque, cheap.

[nbrfd007]

Originally Posted by rich weyand

I went with the base 350 crate and cammed it for torque. No other changes.

New engine, lots of torque, cheap.

What brand of Crate Motor?

[naphtali5725]

yeah, with a low budget like that, not much can be done except a good solid stock type + a good cam like rich said… but there's always nitrous lol

[Jake Wade]

This one:

http://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet-Perf...oductId=752506

[80SPORT]

The GM crate motors are great value;all new parts and a GM warrantee.We do not rebuild motors anymore except custom applications or matching numbers originals.

[cadillac_al]

Originally Posted by Jake Wade

This one:

http://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet-Perf...oductId=752506

For another $500 you can get a 4 bolt 1 piece rear seal and roller cam and vortec heads.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet+Perf...30283/10002/-1

[cadillac_al]

Doesn't GM make a 383 Vortec? If money was no object that should be a consideration.

[Desert1957]

Just curious to everyone who says build an engine is cheaper then a crate motor.If your talking rings and bearings, new gaskets, and hand lapping the valves which is basically a garage freshen up, maybe its cheaper.

IMO if you price up all the parts and the "proper" machine work, its not cheaper.

Anyone who can show me a machine shop that will do all the machine work cheaper I would love to start using them.

All my engine blocks get this labor.(350 Priced)
1. hot tank block
2. mag block for cracks
3. deck block (if needed)
4. .030 bore on cylinders
5. line bore
6. clean all oil galleys
7. cam bearings installed

This is ONLY the block labor, not including cylinder heads overhauled, or any parts. usually come out to about 55% of a new crate motor.

Is it a better engine then a crate motor?, of course, but cheaper? I don't think so.

Desert

[naphtali5725]

Originally Posted by Desert1957

Just curious to everyone who says build an engine is cheaper then a crate motor.If your talking rings and bearings, new gaskets, and hand lapping the valves which is basically a garage freshen up, maybe its cheaper.

IMO if you price up all the parts and the "proper" machine work, its not cheaper.

Anyone who can show me a machine shop that will do all the machine work cheaper I would love to start using them.

All my engine blocks get this labor.(350 Priced)
1. hot tank block
2. mag block for cracks
3. deck block (if needed)
4. .030 bore on cylinders
5. line bore
6. clean all oil galleys
7. cam bearings installed

This is ONLY the block labor, not including cylinder heads overhauled, or any parts. usually come out to about 55% of a new crate motor.

Is it a better engine then a crate motor?, of course, but cheaper? I don't think so.

Desert

I guess we should ask him what his budget is...
Desert, what did you pay ?

I had a 500hp/500tq Pontiac 461 built with all new parts.. eagle rotating assembly, balanced, custom forged pistons, hyd roller, all machine work as you listed, new valves/springs/locks/keepers, comp valve job, heads mag'd etc. etc. etc. no used anything...
5800.00

Oldsmobile 461, same type components and all machine work as the Pontiac… 4500.00
Parts for Olds/Pontiac are way more expensive than SBC parts...

so i know for sure I could have a small block chevy engine built with lots o power, for as cheap as an out of the box new motor from scoggins dickey…

Unless he just wants a completely stock 200hp motor...
just have to check around, plenty of options out there..cheaply on the money side, not the workmanship

if you want the shop names, let me know both have won national drag championships… my Pontiac builder, built the engine for the fastest Pontiac.. the dirty bird

[rich weyand]

Base 350 with torquer cam: under $1700 for 285 hp, 420+ lbft.

[nbrfd007]

Trying to keep it under $2000.00. Most rebuilding prices I have found $1500.00 to $1650.00 with my core.

[enaberif]

Everyone is forgetting to go to a vortec engine is going to be more than just an engine. You will need a lot of extra stuff, a bunch of time, and a whole lot of patience.

There is a reason why crate motors exist for our trucks.. to simply keep costs down and keep it simple.

[jeff mcleod]

I am going though the same thing myself. I planned on rebuilding the 350 cu.in 4 bolt. I tore it apart to find out the block was cracked on #8 hole in the valley . the best part it had 305 heads on it.
For me to build a 350 4 bolt at the local engine shop I will have well over $ 1500.00 tied up.
I plan on going with a GM grate from local GM dealer.It will be the 290 horse 4 bolt as the block I had was a 2 piece rear seal so I dont have to change my flywheel.
With going crate you have a milage and year warranty to boot.

[rich weyand]

Do NOT go with the 350/290hp GM crate engine. All it is (for an extra $500) is the 350/260hp crate engine with the cam out of a 1967 Corvette 350/350hp high-compression engine. In particular, it has high overlap that reduces dynamic compression at low rpms, which, with a high-compression engine, you can afford to give up and it allows more advance because the low dynamic compression at low rpms will reduce the tendency to knock.

What a cam like that means on a low-compression engine is that you will have no bottom end at all. It will completely suck in a truck until you get 3000 rpms under it. It is also a very old cam design, without the high-speed ramps and computerized design of modern products. Also, the fuel mileage will completely suck. We're talking mid-single-digits here.

On the other hand, it will be a two-lane terror with a really nice 50-90 time with your foot in it.

I went this route myself, and ended up recamming the motor. Since the only difference between the 350/260hp and 350/290hp crate engines is the cam, I could have saved the extra $500 (and the expense of changing out the cam), and just gone with the 350/260hp crate engine and recammed it from the get go.

After all of this, my recommendation for a cheap performer is the #10067353 350/260hp crate engine, with a Comp Cams 12-235-2 cam. That's the cam Sean Murphy over at SMI recommended to me a couple years back, and several people have gone with it and liked it. With headers and a dual-plane manifold, you'll see 290hp @4000 and 415lbft @2500, which is a really nice torque number down low where you want it. You should upgrade the springs with this cam, but that's it. If you put it in a never-run 350 crate engine, you don't even need to change out the lifters.

I went with the Comp Cams 12-300-4 cam, which gives 275hp @4000 and 423 lbft @2500. No spring change required, but I did lower the shift points 500 rpm at WOT by changing out one weight on the transmission governor, which is a half-hour job.

But if you go with the 350/290hp crate engine, you will be disappointed. Been there, done that.

[rich weyand]

A further note on modern vs older cam designs. When designing a cam, you really want the valve to be completely open when you want it open, and completely shut when you want it shut, but you can't have that: it has to move between the two positions.

Compression will not begin until the cam is completely shut, and the power in the power stroke will end as soon as the cam opens and dumps the pressure in the expanding charge. On the other hand, good flow into or out of the chamber will not begin until the cam is pretty far open.

Cam design is a compromise between these issues, tuned to the purpose of the engine, including the weight of the vehicle and how it will be used.

These compromises got a lot less severe with the high-speed ramps of modern cam designs. Using computers, it was much easier to speed up the ramps on the cam -- have less time between partially open and fully open -- and still maintain reasonable wear and not float the valves. The computer can figure out the cam-to-lifter pressure at every point on the cam lobe, at every rpm, and all that sort of thing. So cam ramps have gotten much faster. The result is that, with a modern cam design, compression can start sooner, raising the dynamic compression ratio and therefore torque, and the push on the power stroke can last longer without cutting into flow rates, increasing both torque and horsepower.

The best way to tell a modern cam design from an old one is to subtract the .050 valve duration from the advertised duration. Old-school cams may be 70 degrees difference. Modern cams will be more in the 40-50 range. The difference that makes on the performance that can be achieved in tuning the other cam parameters should not be underestimated.

[nbrfd007]

Thanks everyone for the great responses. Experience is a great teacher.

[csdineley]

I put this motor in my truck last year. (http://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet+Perf...30283/10002/-1) Wasn't hard at all. Yes, it will run you over your budget of $2000. I think I ended up at $2800 total. But it's been a great motor so far.