Application options - - air ride, chassis, s10 1948 3100

[motown]

I have a 1948 5-window I have began restoring. I've been in contact with 99 to Life who has given me some great feedback. I would like some recommendations for my specific application... First, I know the S10 vs camaro (etc.) clip vs. Mii debate will get mixed reviews. However, here is what I do know that I'm tentatively planning to do... I want an air ride suspension (lay running boards) , manual transmission, and will likely go with an LS3...

I currently have a stock frame with what I think is a 70-72 camaro front clip... Would I be better off to try modding what I have to work or would the S10 option be better in the end. 99 to life said the camaro tends to be on the wide side which I have heard. But is there mods that can be done to correct that? My fab experience is very novice but I'm willing to learn. Any input would be most appreciated!

[_Ogre]

My fab experience is very novice

ebay and craigslist are full of projects started this way (so is this forum)
i recommend start small, get it running, fix up what you want and drive the wheels off it
while your driving it, buy what ever frame you want and throw money at it

it is great to have the ambition to lay running board, but if you are a novice fabricator; burn out is inevitable
it is a lot nicer to be burnt out, all while driving your truck, than it is to have a bunch of expensive parts in the garage
especially if your married

[motown]

I can definitely see what you mean. However, I do have access to more experience as my father and brother in law are mechanics and have restored vehicles before. I'd like to do what I can myself but do have resources of help. I am not against farming out what I need to but want to learn as much as possible. I already see the budget can be a bottomless pit if you allow it.

[iowaboynca]

if the clip looks ok i'd keep what you got. you can manage how they look with offset wheels

Keep in mind, if you're looking the cheap route, the 5.3 did not have a manual behind it. Only the 4.8. Doesn't matter much as the blocks are the same. Just don't you want you on a wild goose chase. The manuals you'd get in the cars (camaros/vettes) are pretty long and you'd have to get creative with the seats or move the shifter which isn't easy.

To parrot ogre...get it on the road somewhat the way you want it. Learning all the way then you can find another you can go crazy with plus have the extra knowledge along the way.

As my boss at works likes to say, "Don't let great get in the way of good..."
welcome to the sight and good luck!

[motown]

[Keep in mind, if you're looking the cheap route, the 5.3 did not have a manual behind it. Only the 4.8. Doesn't matter much as the blocks are the same. Just don't you want you on a wild goose chase. The manuals you'd get in the cars (camaros/vettes) are pretty long and you'd have to get creative with the seats or move the shifter which isn't easy.
[/QUOTE]


I am leaning towards the 6.2 but everything is tentative . I was thinking about the t56 magnum. Will it still have length issues?.... This is what I love about the forum... , things I haven't considered.

[iowaboynca]

To clarify, the transmission itself isn't as much as the shifter location. most of the cars you'd find one in have it towards the rear. I think there's a kit to move the shifter up but its not cheap. A buddy of mine is going this route.
At the end if the day if you're going bucket seats, probably not as much of an issue if you wanted to keep the bench.

[motown]

Also, Fatman's offers a narrowed control arm for the Camaro. Would that along with backspacing help with the stance and look?

[Advanced Design]

Motown, the second generaton Camaro clip is wide for these trucks and there have been lots of trucks built with them over the years. Yes, the narrow Fatman arms and wheel fitment can help. And there "could" be other issues you might run into going this route that we don't see until you run into them. For example, will using the narrowed arms pull the wheel and tire closer to the frame causing rubbing while turning? Then with the Camaro clip you will get into some fabrication to clear the steering box and mount the radiator support.

I purchased the 48 truck I built (icon picture) as an abandoned project because the guy trying to build it was using a second generation Camaro clip and he figured out it was really too wide to finish the truck with his skills. Instead of using the Camaro clip, I found an original style frame that had a Fatman MII front installed properly and bought it for reasonable money for the truck build.

Just a side note I later gave the subframe to a friend of mine for his 52 Buick build. Between us we have a fair amount of fabrication ability and he scrapped the subframe idea because it was a pita to make it work and look nice. He went with a Fatman front clip instead.

Just some thoughts for what it is worth.

[motown]

Thanks for that input AD. I'm having those same thoughts as well. Would you say the quality of the Fatman MII is on the upper side of available MII's? What airbag setup do you have and did you just step-notch the back? I see Fatman offers an MII with Shockwaves. What Fatman setup would I need if I want to lay running boards? I might try to search for an original frame and see what I can find.

[Hampshire]

Not sure if they have a mid shift kit for the T56 magnum, but I used it on the TKO600 in my build to move the shifter up. The T56 may be the only option for an LS (?...not an LS guy, so I don't know). I would give Ameican Powertrain a call for info on distances/applications for their transmissions.

Didn't use them, but nice folks and quality stuff at Fatman.

[Advanced Design]

Originally Posted by motown

Thanks for that input AD. I'm having those same thoughts as well. Would you say the quality of the Fatman MII is on the upper side of available MII's? What airbag setup do you have and did you just step-notch the back? I see Fatman offers an MII with Shockwaves. What Fatman setup would I need if I want to lay running boards? I might try to search for an original frame and see what I can find.

Motown, you are getting good input from members here and research on your part is smart. There are so many variables and options to consider. Fatman is a good set up and the owner knows his business. I think I can say the same about Heidts, TCI, No Limit, Art Morrison, Roadster Shop and on and on. There are some really good systems.

Take the time to look at the installation instructions for each of the companies to see if there are differences. I seem to remember the Fatman top hats need specific trimming before installation. The Heidts didn't and I liked the Heidts better for that reason.

Just so you know I am not a professional builder or installer and it has been awhile since I did an installation. My current burb build is using a chassis I bought complete.

My truck used Fatman front with bags. We made the cups and modified the top hat for bags. The rear was a 4 link with regular bags and a small notch. It didn't lay boards though got pretty low. It would need a rear step notch to lay boards. You might be able to find a chassis done someone needs to sell.

Another thought, Ogre gives some good advice. Continue to be thoughtful and learn, decide on a good direction so you can be driving your truck before burn out or budget concerns halts progress.

Good luck!

[iowaboynca]

Originally Posted by Advanced Design

Another thought, Ogre gives some good advice. Continue to be thoughtful and learn, decide on a good direction so you can be driving your truck before burn out or budget concerns halts progress.

Good luck!

If i can pile on to this thread, AD/Ogre are right. Some of the most fun i've had with my build is the research. If you're not in a hurry, may want to wait until some of big carshows come near by. You can probably see some of the kits in person. Look at some trucks at the shows and ask how the owners what they did, how they're set up. Pair that with the info you've learned online and you'll be more satisfied with your decision.

[rtinniste]

I had the same goal as you when i started about 2 months ago but with a 350/th350 setup. I ended up with the s10 route and this is my view and why i went my route and what I've learned.

The s10 frame is pretty easy to lay the frame out and info is all over the net they were super popular with the mini truck crowd. Tons of aftermarket support for suspension components. They make motor mounts for the LS and 350. You get to choose how low or high your body sits (I'm about 4 inches off my frame and my front fenders lay on the ground same with running boards on stock un-modded control lower control arms I haven't mounted the bed so i cant tell if i need a small notch or not yet looks like it wont need it) The 3100 body on the s10 is technically channeled with the way the s10 frame is and the narrower front track width helps if you want reverse offsets all around also helps with turning clearance if you plan on riding low.

The cons of the s10 swap you have a long haul with this route front clip can be done over a weekend. Also s10 swap you have to pull the cab i never want to do that again and you can be opening a bigger can of worms because of this is when I realized how half assed my truck was "restored" by the previous owner. aligning everything is fun but when you make mounts measure twice and then measure again take your time and not rush it and you'll be fine.

End of the day I know I'll end up with a better finished result then the clip it and forget it method. And so far for what a good scotts mustang ii system with bags would of ran me I ended up with a s10 frame, thorbros 4 link, all new front suspension with tubular uppers, 4wd blazer axle, new rotors bearings and drop spindles, and a new miller 211 welder. My mounts i have about $100 into including bolts if that.

The s10 swap is pretty straight forward and all the info on this thread makes it that much easier just don't rush it set a goal a day or a goal a weekend and it starts moving pretty fast.

The mustang ii route for you since you need another frame still requires swapping the body and stuff only plus side is you wont have to make mounts and align sheet metal. The stock frames don't seem to be worth much I have mine so I've been pricing what i can sell it for so you can pick one up slightly cheaper then a s10 frame.

If it was me I would get the truck running and driving with its current setup. Pull the coils out of the front to see how low it can lay with the camaro clip or see if there's a way to make it lay how i want and check all the fab work on the clip install make sure its not some sketchy install. For all you know it might work out perfect and will save you alot of time money and migraines.
Wheel specs will have alot to do with it, you can also add narrowed control arms, and since you plan on bags that will really help, just ride a little higher to keep from rubbing when you turn. I've stuffed some wheels on cars that I honestly thought would never work just takes some tweaking and figuring out.

[motown]

I'll have to look into that shifter position issue Hampshire.

Thanks for that detailed experience rtinniste. If I'm going to have to buy new control arms anyways (If I go Camaro route), I'm thinking it might be best to go ahead and start narrowing it down between the MII with stock frame and S10 as you described. Not sold on that yet. I'm looking at it like ... Good set of tubulars = $1000+/-, Shockwaves = $900 for the Camaro... Where Fatmans sells a shockwave equipped MII with and you would get new brakes, rack & pinion, etc. for about $1000 more than you'd have in the Camaro and it'd be a better quality setup. Am I missing anything there? Do you think the shockwaves are the best route to go for slamming or not?

[rtinniste]

Originally Posted by motown

I'll have to look into that shifter position issue Hampshire.

Thanks for that detailed experience rtinniste. If I'm going to have to buy new control arms anyways (If I go Camaro route), I'm thinking it might be best to go ahead and start narrowing it down between the MII with stock frame and S10 as you described. Not sold on that yet. I'm looking at it like ... Good set of tubulars = $1000+/-, Shockwaves = $900 for the Camaro... Where Fatmans sells a shockwave equipped MII with and you would get new brakes, rack & pinion, etc. for about $1000 more than you'd have in the Camaro and it'd be a better quality setup. Am I missing anything there? Do you think the shockwaves are the best route to go for slamming or not?

Hopefully that all made sense, I'm multi tasking at work and running off 3 hours of sleep

What is the plan for the truck billets or keep it 14s or 15s? Budget?
The camaro clip I can't say exactly since I've never messed with one but wheel sizes and back spacing will really help. You might be able to get away with out messing with arms. I'd pull a coil and cycle the suspension see how low it goes and check wheel clearance you can always add drop spindles to get it lower also the suspension will camber in some and help clear the wheel some. Cycle it see what you have to work with the camaro clip is free and already installed. Post a pic of the truck and if you do cycle the suspension post a pic of it fully compressed.

Shockwaves don't get as much lift as a standard bag setup if i remember right, but shockwaves are more for handling and bling factor and over priced i feel like. I have a setup simular to shockwaves on my Infiniti (32 way adjustable coilovers converted to use a sleeve airbag in place of my coil) they handle great but only get 4 inches of lift which is just enough to get me up most driveways and over speedbumps without destroying $1500 worth fiberglass aero that i waited 8 months for.

It all comes down to budget and time the mustang ii what bugged me was the way the tubular lower arm mounts it looks like a weak point. And i wasn't all the confident with my welding so the clipping worried me. At times I wish I went mustang ii route because my truck would of been done already but then I'm glad i didn't because it brought out all the little issues the truck had from the previous repairs.

[motown]

Originally Posted by rtinniste

Hopefully that all made sense, I'm multi tasking at work and running off 3 hours of sleep

What is the plan for the truck billets or keep it 14s or 15s? Budget?
The camaro clip I can't say exactly since I've never messed with one but wheel sizes and back spacing will really help. You might be able to get away with out messing with arms. I'd pull a coil and cycle the suspension see how low it goes and check wheel clearance you can always add drop spindles to get it lower also the suspension will camber in some and help clear the wheel some. Cycle it see what you have to work with the camaro clip is free and already installed. Post a pic of the truck and if you do cycle the suspension post a pic of it fully compressed.

Shockwaves don't get as much lift as a standard bag setup if i remember right, but shockwaves are more for handling and bling factor and over priced i feel like. I have a setup simular to shockwaves on my Infiniti (32 way adjustable coilovers converted to use a sleeve airbag in place of my coil) they handle great but only get 4 inches of lift which is just enough to get me up most driveways and over speedbumps without destroying $1500 worth fiberglass aero that i waited 8 months for.

It all comes down to budget and time the mustang ii what bugged me was the way the tubular lower arm mounts it looks like a weak point. And i wasn't all the confident with my welding so the clipping worried me. At times I wish I went mustang ii route because my truck would of been done already but then I'm glad i didn't because it brought out all the little issues the truck had from the previous repairs.

I know the Camaro clip can probably be "made" to work. But experiences such as AdvancedDesign worry me. Secondly, I don't think the clip installation was done completely ideally. The welding looks kinda suspect to me. But with that said I'm not ready to completely abandon it yet. Maybe a separate bag and shock setup would be more ideal. I was curious about the range of height adjustment vs a bag/shock stand alone unit.

[67 chevelle]

I had a 49 with a 79 camaro clip up front and chassis engineering ladder bar / coil overs in back , drove like a dream

The leaf pack I took out was stout to say the least , it was a 3100 5 window also

[motown]

I hate to bring this up because I know it's been talked about on the forum but it seems every time I do bring something up I learn something new... Scotts IFS, vs fatmans, vs no limit, vs others? Anything to consider between those on this truck? Not necessarily asking about quality but would like comparisons if anyone wishes to.

[motown]

Of course I'm in a hurry!!! In my head I just see those running boards flowing down the road.. Haha... But I definitely see what y'all are saying. And I'll say, I think I'm a fairly patient person and, I have help accessible from my in-laws... But I've enjoyed what little I've learned so far on these AD's... Addicting.

[iowaboynca]

Yes, they are quite AD-dicting...
Sorry couldn't resist.

[Valarius_Starchaser]

Originally Posted by iowaboynca

Yes, they are quite AD-dicting...
Sorry couldn't resist.

HAHA you made me spill my drink on that one!

It was so bad it was good thanks for that

[motown]

Originally Posted by iowaboynca

Yes, they are quite AD-dicting...
Sorry couldn't resist.

I take responsibility for the digression of this thread.

[motown]

The more I read the more I'm leaning towards a Scott's IFS and finding a new (to me) stock frame.

[dsraven]

check out some of the other threads regarding engine size and mods etc. these are pretty light trucks and can get a little "squirrelly" when you get too much power to weight ratio. some guys would say they are more fun to drive if you don't have to worry about breaking loose at 70 MPH. also, have you thought about an auto trans? less clutch legwork when city driving usually means more actual driving because it is more fun.
just a thought. shifter would be super easy with an auto.

[motown]

Originally Posted by dsraven

check out some of the other threads regarding engine size and mods etc. these are pretty light trucks and can get a little "squirrelly" when you get too much power to weight ratio. some guys would say they are more fun to drive if you don't have to worry about breaking loose at 70 MPH. also, have you thought about an auto trans? less clutch legwork when city driving usually means more actual driving because it is more fun.
just a thought. shifter would be super easy with an auto.

I don't live in a city and I love manuals... As for power, I might have been a little ambitious on my initial wants. Does anybody know the hp mark that starts getting "squirrelly" (by that I mean hard to control at fairly conservative throttle) in these 3100's? With the air ride I'll have the extra weight of the air tank, compressors, gas tank will also be mounted in the rear.