47-55.1 Electrolysis

[8man]

I have some parts for the next truck that I would like to "de-rust". I know I can have them blasted and get the rust off the outside, but I was thinking about the rust on the inside of the doors or the running boards.

I have used electrolysis on some tools to remove rust, and it did a good job. So I was wondering if anyone has tried it on any automotive parts?

If not, I'd like to open a discussion of what others think about it.

Thanks.

[mr48chev]

I'm going to say that there are plusses and minuses on all types of rust stripping

I saw this car at the Portland Roadster show in Oregon over a several year period when Steves Auto Restoration had it in their booth.

It has a direct connection to AD trucks as it was originally built by Valley Customs the same shop that did the Rod and Custom Dream Truck.
This was at the 2013 show

First shot is as they bought it in full patina if you will.




At the 2014 show they had it in bare metal after being stripped at one of the chemical stripping shops in the Portland area.




Clean bare shiny metal in and out with no rust but that method just like sand blasting has folks that find fault with it as they say you can't always get all of the chemicals rinsed out of the overlapped metal.

On small parts and tools I have been using Evap-O-Rust


I soaked this chain in it a few months ago. It's just an old piece of chain that came in a batch of stuff and has been laying around for years.




It does a pretty nice job but if you were going to do very big items it might get expensive for home use as it costs about 15.00 a gallon. I pour it into a plastic container that I picked up at Dollar tree after I set what ever I want to take the rust off in the container and put the lid on and let it soak until I remember to take it out. It does a pretty good job overnight most of the time. Then I fish the part out and pour the liquid back in the jug for the next time.

I've never tried electrolysis but a lot of guys swear by it and it might be a less expensive way to go for larger parts. Some guys on the HAMB swear by it. I don't think it is too spendy to do either except that what ever container you get to put the larger parts in might cost a bit unless you can scrounge good.

I'd say that for home use you do not want hazardous Chemicals or acids. There are always those guys who pop up and suggest things that are seriously hazardous to have in a home environment where you have kids or pets or don't want ground water contamination and that may be highly caustic and cause chemical burns on your skin. Those I prefer not to have around.

[mr48chev]

Here are a couple of links that explain the electrolysis rust removing process pretty well

https://www.wwgoa.com/video/electrolysis-rust-removal/#

This one goes more in line with what the guys on the HAMB have suggested using washing soda and I think they are using Borax
https://www.familyhandyman.com/proje...-electrolysis/

This is a good Youtube video on doing a larger part. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKZv14-K71g

[8man]

Thank you for that report.

I have used the Evaporust and Rust 911 on smaller parts, and I like the Rust 911 better, as it seems to clean off the rust better and quicker.

I have tried electrolysis on some small stuff and it worked well. I didn't know whether the sheet metal would have a problem. I didn't think so, and if the guys on HAMB like it, I may have to try it and give a report.

I have an old rusted out running board I will try first just to see if I like it. First I have to build a "vat" large enough to hold the stuff I want to try.

Again, thank you. That information was very helpful.

[mr48chev]

Now you done it 8Man I'm going to be looking for a plastic container big enough to put my long bed running boards in. After watching the Youtube video that I posted the link to (about 28 minutes long) I think that will work if I can find something to stick them in. I saw some used plastic water troughs on FB market place the other day that were pretty cheap and will need to check on them.

[Nordic]

I use vinegar for rust removal, a couple of gallons are cheap . I have several different size plastic containers, for small to larger parts. non toxic and works well,

[mr48chev]

That looks great.

A lot of guys use Molasses The kind you get from cattle feed suppliers but it stinks something terrible and unless you live out in the country and have a spot out away from the house and garage to use it the smell might not go over with others around you. My grandfather used to bring some home from the sugar factory where the processed sugar beets into sugar for his cattle when he worked there in the 50's and 60's. The plant only ran about 4 or five months a year and it was in the winter when he wasn't working in the fields. He would take his 48 Chev 1 ton flatbed to work and they would fill it with beet tops to feed his cattle and the cows loved them.

[8man]

Thanks Nordic, I've also used Vinegar on other things, but it is an acid and it does remove metal. I use it to sharpen old files. Works great to sharpen them. I found one that had been in the dirt for years. I put it in the vinegar, and it took a little time, but it is a file again.

Mr.48, sorry for sending you down this rabbit hole. I've been looking at all the stuff I can use to remove rust without damaging the metal. I have had parts blasted, they warped. I had parts soda blasted, they had a very find dust come out of all the nooks and crannies to the point that I'm concerned that it may be a problem for the paint. I've used vinegar on thicker heavier stuff. I've used Evaporust and Rust 911, the 911 worked better than the Evaporust for me, but both could get expensive for larger pieces. I saw a video of Ray Schelin using the 911 product on a frame, and he was using a cheap pump to circulate it to remove the rust, and it did a pretty good job that way, but what a mess it makes if you slip up a little.

I looked at tanks, and decided to look at doing one out of wood, with a tarp as a liner. It will be 72" x 60" x 24" deep so it will hold doors, running boards, fenders and even the hood. That will take about 500 gallons of liquid to fill up. The other products, other than vinegar, will get pretty costly, so that is why I am looking at the electrolysis for this application. Then when I'm done, I can drain it into the yard and my wife won't have a coronary because I'm putting some chemical she doesn't know about on her lawn.

[1project2many]

I've got a fair amount of experience with using electrolysis. I've also used acids, sandblasting, bases, wire brushes, baking soda, and a few other approaches. There are strengths to each method and disadvantages as well. Electrolysis is one of the better methods imo.

Most important is that electrolysis removes rust best in the "line of sight" of the electrodes. Electricity wants to follow the shortest path between two points so you will see the most rust removed in the areas that directly face the negative electrodes. It's possible to use multiple electrodes or a mesh to encircle the part you are cleaning but you could still end up with areas that require additional treatment.

Next is that electrolysis tends to become less effective over time. As rust is removed and iron is exposed, the conductivity of the clean areas increases. This means more current tends to flow through the clean areas than the rusty ones, and the rusty areas stay rusty longer.

Next is that increasing voltage does not necessarily increase the speed at which rust is removed. Passing electricity through water breaks the water down into hydrogen and oxygen. Using a welder or high voltage / current source instead of a low wattage battery charger simply breaks down the water in your tank at a higher rate requiring more refills.

Sometimes reversing the charge for a short time works miracles. Removing paint or large chunks of rust can be sped up by temporarily reversing the current. With the polarity switched, iron atoms are forced from the part you are cleaning into the solution. This can have the effect of forcing rust and paint off the part. Be sure to watch closely because leaving the process for too much time usually results in some of your part disappearing forever.

The "black oxide" formed on the part you are cleaning offers no significant rust protection. It can be washed or brushed off and isn't bound to the steel. Get it off the part ASAP and paint or coat the part with a protective coating to prevent oxidation.

Baking soda and washing soda appear to be equally effective as a bath.

High spots and edges will clean while low areas and grooves are less likely to clean. For example, the section between the bottom of the door and the edge of the folded door skin will be more difficult to clean while the fold of the door skin will clean up quickly. I use a stainless steel wire brush and a mild acid to clean the hard to get to areas.

I have found that using a high pressure washer / steam cleaner to supplement tank soaking or electrolysis is much more effective than the tank alone.

Anything else?

[8man]

Thanks! That was very much what I was looking for.

Based on what you were saying, my idea of getting the rust out of the hard to reach places like inside the channels on the bottom of the running boards may not work at all.

Also, so it does not kill rust, simply removes it.

I guess the last question, in your opinion, would it be worth it or is there a better way for doors and running boards?

Thanks.

[1project2many]

I guess the last question, in your opinion, would it be worth it or is there a better way for doors and running boards?

You might not like this answer but I believe this is an acceptable method and that you should not strive for perfection. This can make fast work of many parts of the door or running board. This can reduce the amount of time spent on the total project. This presents the least hazards to you, the parts, or the environment. This method is relatively inexpensive, doesn't require an investment in specialized equipment or safety gear, and allows you to practice on smaller parts before going "Big Time." At least give it a try.

But the truth is that understanding how rust forms and grows is as important as removing it. Areas like the seam in the bottom of the door should be cleaned as best as possible then coated so oxygen and moisture are sealed away from the door. You can easily use a wax or grease type sealer over paint, so it fills in the seam and slows rust to the point where rust bubbles will show up under the paint on the exterior before holes appear in the door. Parking the truck where it doesn't get wet helps a bunch as well. And remembering to invest time in touching up rust prevention really helps.

I've spent years being obsessive about rust but honestly it's possible to get really good results without trying to clean steel perfectly.

[8man]

Thank you again 1project.

I agree, I really don't like rust, but perfection is a long way from where I live. I'll try it and see if I can make the parts better.

[8man]

Thanks Mick. I am going to try it and let everyone know my experience.

[57tailgater]

Question to you guys who have done the vinegar or molasses: How does that affect any seals on what you soak?

[mr48chev]

Originally Posted by 57tailgater

Question to you guys who have done the vinegar or molasses: How does that affect any seals on what you soak?

I would figure that if you have a piece that is rusty enough to use any of the methods of rest removal in the thread that you intend to replace the seals. Most would remove the seals before we put the part in the solution as part of cleaning grease and oil off the part.

[mick53]

I've done quite a bit of electrolysis rust removing. For larger parts I make a wood frame and put heavy plastic in it. I might do my entire frame. You might need to move the part around. also with parts with other parts attached to them make sure all parts are grounded with multiple wires. Also keep in mind the gases that come of are flammable. It's very useful for parts like window regulators where there is no good way to get to it. It's almost free to do. Thank you for your time.

[1project2many]

1) I agree 100% with Mr48. If I'm doing that much work I'm planning to change seals.

For a slightly more factual answer, vinegar is a mild acid. Acids degrade natural rubber. Acids also love to dissolve metal such as used in seal garter springs. I would not take a chance re-using a seal that may have been degraded by acid.

[mr48chev]

I'm getting to where I like the idea of electrolysis better all the time the more I understand it.

Most of us have an old analog battery charger kicking around or can find one at a yard sale that still works for cheap.

The washing powder is pretty inexpensive and is not a bio hazard. Meaning if you empty it out on the back corner of the lot it isn't going to contaminate the ground water.
Too many times guys pop off and throw out some acid used for cleaning bricks or something else that is not only hazmat in it's self but you don't want your kids or grand kids or your dog anywhere close to it. Plus you don't want a trip to the emergency room if you get it splashed on you.

Also it doesn't stink like Molasses That stuff works but is a bit on the spendy side if you start needing several gallons plus you better have 10 acres so you can stick the tub down on the far corner so the better half doesn't have a fit.

As shown in the video you just need some sort of non conducting container to put the water and the part in. That could be anything including a cheap fiberglass bath tub from Habit or that old fiberglass row boat that is listed for free on FB or Craigslist for bigger stuff. Or a tarp in a box .
Worse case might be that you leave some rust stains on the ground where you empty the liquid.

[8man]

Mr48, the only negative I have found is the off-gassing can be hazardous, so don't do it inside or or do it in a well ventilated area to disperse the gas.

Other than that, I really am leaning toward using it on some truck parts like doors to see if it will do a good job.

If anybody beats me to it, I hope they will start a new thread on their experience.

[mr48chev]

The guy in the video explained the need for doing it where you had air flow and not in a confined area. I'd say that would be the same with a lot of other stripping methods though.

I've got a pair of long bed running boards that I would really like to try it on. They are going to be a bit spendy to have sandblasted at the powder coat shop and it's two trips to Portland to have them dipped there. That and who knows how many small parts.

A guy up the road from me has some 100 gallon Rubbermaid water tanks for cattle for sale for about 50 bucks each that would work but I'll have to wait on that. My tank may be an on sale HF tarp and an old apple bin. A stock 53 door is right at 60 inches corner to corner Measuring on one of the green patina doors I am wanting to sell.

[mick53]

Originally Posted by mr48chev

The guy in the video explained the need for doing it where you had air flow and not in a confined area. I'd say that would be the same with a lot of other stripping methods though.

I've got a pair of long bed running boards that I would really like to try it on. They are going to be a bit spendy to have sandblasted at the powder coat shop and it's two trips to Portland to have them dipped there. That and who knows how many small parts.

A guy up the road from me has some 100 gallon Rubbermaid water tanks for cattle for sale for about 50 bucks each that would work but I'll have to wait on that. My tank may be an on sale HF tarp and an old apple bin. A stock 53 door is right at 60 inches corner to corner Measuring on one of the green patina doors I am wanting to sell.

You can always put some electrodes suspended inside the door. I use mostly rebar but we throw tons of it away.

[mr48chev]

That is a pretty good idea to get it to work better inside the door. My doors aren't all that bad but the running boards that I got all fired up on and committed to buying before I saw them really need some help.

[mick53]

When the rust acuminates on the rods it helps to brush them off every now and then. I think it helps the conductivity. I can't stress enough that it's flammable hydrogen gas and oxygen that comes off it. The hydrogen will collect at the top of the room so try to ventilate the upper part.

[mr48chev]

I don't have room to do anything like that inside right now anyhow. It would be extremely well ventilated here.

[8man]

Good idea inside a door. I have some flat plates I could use as anodes that would slide inside easily.

I'm still trying to figure out a shape to build the tank. I thought I'd build it out of plywood and line it with a tarp. That way I can shape it to fit. I was thinking about 6' x 5.5' x 2' deep, and lining it with a 10' x 12' tarp to hold the concoction. Now I may have to rethink the design as I would want the door to be suspended upright. Also, I was making it big enough to hold a hood and fenders, so I may have to make a couple and fill them as necessary.

At the size I've been thinking, it is about 500 gallons. I believe I will need about 500 table spoons of washing soda in that mix. I think that is a little under a 5 gallon tub of washing soda.

I see more research in my future before I start this.