Saginaw 4 speed any good?

[Lobo'74]

I know the Saginaw 3 and 4 speeds use what is basically the same case and the same mainshafts. I have been told the 3 speed is VERY stout. My 3 speed won't go into reverse and is tight in first. I found a Saginaw 4 speed locally for $300 at a junk yard. Already pulled and ready to go.

Question - what kind of horse power can the 4 speed handle? I know its not the Muncie . . . I saw one internet article from a hot rod magazine that said to pass buying on Saginaw 4 speeds. I saw one internet article that said they were good for 300HP (my 350 puts out 325-350hp). I have also seen internet articles from folks with original Z28's running the Sag 4 spd, as well as people using them on the drag strip.

Anyone have any first hand knowledge of the capabilities of the Saginaw 4 speed?

[Slammed67]

I currently have one in my '56 Chevy wagon behind a 265V8 and used to have one in my truck when it had a 402BB. I didn't abuse it too much with the big block but it held up fine. Figure out which gear ratios the trans has before you decide to buy it. There are a few different ones out there. You can tell the ratio by the number of lines (or grooves) around the input shaft. Also, I only gave $120 for one last year at a swap meet so $300 seems kinda high.

I found this info on the web....

Saginaw 4-speed 1st 2nd 3rd 4th:

No lines (grooves) 2.84 2.01 1.35 1.00
1 Line (groove ) 2.54 1.80 1.44 1.00
2 Lines (grooves) 3.11 2.20 1.47 1.00
3 Lines (grooves) 3.50 2.47 1.65 1.00
Others found but not with complete specs:
-------------------2.20 1.64 1.47 1.00

Muncie Transmission Gear Ratio Identification

Transmission Year 1st 2nd 3rd 4th

M-20 wide ratio 63-65 2.56, 1.91, 1.48, 1.00
M-20 wide ratio 66-70 2.52, 1.88, 1.46, 1.00
M-20 wide ratio 71-74 2.52, 1.88, 1.46, 1.00
M-21 close ratio 63-65 2.20, 1.64, 1.28, 1.00
M-21 close ratio 66-70 2.20, 1.64, 1.28, 1.00
M-21 close ratio 71-74 2.20, 1.64, 1.28, 1.00
M-22 close ratio 65-69 2.20, 1.64, 1.28, 1.00
M-22 close ratio 70-74 2.20, 1.64, 1.28, 1.00

[Lobo'74]

Problem is here in Charlottesville, VA it is almost impossible to find anything for our trucks. None of the local junkyards have anything. I had to go to a yard 40 miles north. They want $200 for a sag 3 speed, $300 for the 4 speed, $750 for a Muncie 4 speed, and $500 for a TH400 (including flexplate)

Prices seem high, but when its the only semi-local place that has anything I'm kinda stuck. Also, I want to get the truck back on the road - lots of projects going on here at home that I need a truck for.

Thanks for the info on ratio's, that helps.

Look at this site for info on how to put an overdrive into a Saginaw 4 speed.....
http://www.chevytrucks.org/tech/overdrive.htm

[thecatseye66]

Obviously, the stock ones aren't as strong as the Muncies or Borg-Warners but they can be built to take some punishment. General rule is to stay away if you can afford something better. I'm no expert (on anything) but I've got a good Saginaw story, nonetheless.

Back in the 80's, I put a Saginaw four speed in a 68 Camaro. The guy I bought it from had it built for a roundy car but then went with a Borg-Warner Super T-10 instead. I was 16 and didn't have much money (I really wanted a Muncie) and the guy I bought it from knew it so he cut me a good deal. I think I gave him 75 bucks and he gave me the transmission and about $125 in receipts for all the parts he put in it.

I am not a tranny guy and I have no idea what was done to it when he rebuilt it--but I'll tell you--I actually tried to break that thing and it never gave in. I put that Saginaw behind a built 350 (300 horse) and ran it for two years before I replaced the 350 with a solid lifter 396--which I ran for another three years. I went through a bunch of back tires doing burnouts and dropping the clutch in downshifts like I had no good sense.

Now, I wouldn't dare treat ANY transmission the way I treated it...but it never broke. The guys I knew at the time couldn't believe that thing held up and it was in the car when I sold it. It's not the best choice, I know, but I wish I still had that tranny today!

[Lobo'74]

Cool story. Thanks.

I've got some time to try and decide what to do, but any and all inputs help the process.

[Beefcake]

I have a saginaw you can have for free...... its not in the best shape. Kept poping out of gear. You will need a bell housing, and linkage for it.

Im in warren michigan, dont think you want to ship it... probley weighs too much to save you money.

Im going to be gone till monday, but pm me if your interested.

[fastwillie 696969]

first check to see if your shifter is bad on your 3 spd and 2nd i had a 4 spd saginaw which i ran a 550 hp and had no problem and i beat the hell out of this car every corner i went around i pop the clutch and rip thur the gears (i was 23 at the time)
i belive you can still use the bellhousing and driveshaft from the 3 spd to the 4 spd without any changes

[boraxman]

Id buy the Muncie for $750 or maybe offer less.

[jescates]

My old man has a Sag 4spd in his 64 Impala SS with a mild built 350. I have seen him give it hell and it's held up so far. He's lifted the front tires off the ground several times....no problems.

[farside847]

Does the 4sp use a column shifter or a floor shifter on these trucks?

[xtremer-pxl]

you can get a fresh rebuilt 3spd for $300

http://www.smileysracing.com/cat/vie...98bcd&pgID=761

[pissonNOS]

floor shifter, my first saginaw was great till me and budweiser decided to try a reverse burnout and i tore all the teeth of reverse gear other than that i still drove it for 3 days with out reverse till i finally parked it I also put that tranny thru some hell

[MandarinSixSeven]

Originally Posted by pissonNOS

floor shifter, my first saginaw was great till me and budweiser decided to try a reverse burnout and i tore all the teeth of reverse gear other than that i still drove it for 3 days with out reverse till i finally parked it I also put that tranny thru some hell

Thats what happened to my first sag 4-speed. the reverse gear ended up bald when I reversed really hard to avoid and accident...hop hop hop BANG!

My second one was because I had a really crappy shifter adn it got jammed one day when my mom was driving, it mushed some gears together and stopped working.

I'm now on my 3rd 4 speed and its holding up great with a hurst shifter and dual friction centerforce, and still takes quite a beating...

Before the 4 speeds, I had a 3 speed that is still alive, but makes some crazy noises before i decommisioned it.

Even after buying 3 sag 4-speeds, I still haven't spent half of what a used Muncie goes for around here, so thats ok with me. That alone makes them worth it

[GMC69mnypit]

I've ran saginaws behind my '79 elcamino SS with a pretty hot small block for years. Other then grenading one doing stupid stuff (5000 rpm side step of the clutch with 10" wrinkle walls on back) they've taken alot of abuse. Of course, it's a lighter vehicle and traction is always a problem. If your truck is gonna hook up good - launch sensibly, if it's gonna just spin - let the smoke fly. My experience has been you'll replace no more of them than you will automatics.

I'd do some phoning around and then take a road trip one weekend - to a salvage yard that doesn't have you bent over a barrel. I have the same issue around here you have, now when I need something major, I call ahead and have them pull it, make a weekend road trip.

Just my thoughts.

[FUNMUDDER]

If you do get one, buy a hurst competition plus shifter for it. They make special ones with long sticks for trucks. I've heard stock saginaw 4-speeds are terrible to shift with a stock shifter. My dad had one in a camaro when he was in high school. He said it was "too friggin hard to drive with a saginaw shifter". He put in a hurst and said it worked pretty good.

[3 on the tree]

I towed my 3600 lb flat tracker w/68 SWB GMC, 350/Sag 4 speed, never any problems. Also, Mine came out of a Vega GT!!!! The non GT models got a weaker 4 speed, but the GTs got the Saginaw 4 speed. It bolted up in place of my 3 speed, cept for the shifter. Start tracking them Vegas down.

[fastwillie 696969]

did they make a column shifter for a 4 spd ?

[shifty]

I've never seen 4spd column shifter. I don't know how they'd make it work. I've never heard a reference to 4-on-the-tree in our trucks either. I think it would be cool to see pictures if there was such a thing.

[Lobo'74]

only 4 on the column I have ever heard of are the old Mercedes Benz sedans.

[farside847]

I did a search and the 69 SAAB at a 4 on the tree.....

Also, this guy converted a 3 on the tree to a 4 on the tree in an old Dart
http://www.slantsix.org/articles/4-s...peed-swaps.htm

[farside847]

And, good old google found some chevys with a 4 on the tree, but reverse on the floor with a pull/push lever. Cool!

[RJ100]

Leave the Saginaw where it belongs,and get the muncie. That is if you are going to have any serious HP or Torque.

[pissonNOS]

Originally Posted by RJ100

Leave the Saginaw where it belongs,and get the muncie. That is if you are going to have any serious HP or Torque.

thats what people told me too but no one would lend me the extra money to buy a muncie

[thecatseye66]

You know what Lobo?
Get what ya can for what ya got to spend. I think you should be able to find a GOOD tranny, not a worn-out POS, regardless of which brand it is. Rebuilt or new $$$ pick it and stick with it. If it is used get SOME kind of discount if it breaks in a few months. You'll get really good at replacing trannies and lining up clutches and your pecs will be huge from pressing them into the hump space.
I'd be more concerned about finding a good tranny gear ratio that will work well with your rear-end gear ratio and your cam/ carberation setup.

What is your rear-end ratio, and what are you looking for in the tranny? Close-ratio or wide? Wide sucks if you want to drag race, but helps cruising.
Good luck!!

[jimfulco]

Use the Saginaw. Just don't beat on it real hard. The biggest killers of manual transmissions are too much torque and high shock loads. A 350 is not likely to make enough torque to kill it. My '72 Nova w/350-4bbl came with a Saginaw from the factory & it had a 12,000 mile warranty. The shock load is pretty much caused by slick usage and bad driving style (don't sidestep the clutch pedal, etc.). A too-stiff clutch probably doesn't help, either.

The notorious "shifting problem" is not the fault of the Saginaw trans. The factory shifters are just seriously mal-designed. The S-curve in the handle (moves the handle toward the center of the car for some unknown reason) causes the linkage to bind when you yank on it real hard. I had the S-curve removed from mine & tightened the bushings on the stabilizer rod, and it shifts fine.