Suspension options - opinions appreciated

[loridr]

Here's where I'm at: I have a 69' C-10 shortbed with 72' suspension I built in the late 90's. I just retired and plan on blowing it apart again and bringing it up to date. Up front it's got tubular control arms (2" boxed lowers) and 2” springs. In the back it has 5" springs (stock panhard bar and I did not relocate the shocks), with a fuel cell between the rails. I pretty much like the stance so will stay with a 4" drop in the front and probably go 6" in the back, and I want to stay with springs, not bags.

I am fully aware that I did the back wrong by not relocating the shocks and installing an adjustable track bar (the darn thing is a pogo stick!), but I don't like the front either as there is absolutely no preload on the springs (you can rattle them around when not under load and they squeak when driving).

Couple of questions:

1. How much better off would I be in the front by switching to spindles/springs and ditching the boxed lower arms? And if I do that, would my old tubular upper arms be compatible with most manufacturers non-dropped lowers or will I need new uppers as well?

2. In the back I’ve been thinking of going to something trick like the CPP Totally Tubular complete kit or the complete ECE setup. Has anyone had any experience with the way these systems perform? Also, other than the exhaust clearance and pinion angle benefits, will one of these systems give me any better ride/handling than just relocating my shocks correctly and installing a good adjustable track bar? I plan on notching the rails no matter which way I decide to go. Bucks aren’t really an issue, but as you all know a dollar saved here is easily spent somewhere else on the ride!

I would really appreciate opinions and input from you guy’s, this forum is great.

[OARNGESI]

With spindles it doesnt affert ride at all so id say it whould be a huge improvement though you may have issues with 15 in rims no idea on the control arms though

[loridr]

Thanks.

I'm fairly convinced that going to spindles is the way to go. When I built the truck back in the 90's, boxed lower arms were supposed to be all-that. It would be nice if I can use my old uppers though, save a few bucks.

I never thought about interference between 15" rims and spindles (I am running 15's now, the big wheel thing was just getting started when I finished the truck), but I'll more than likely be getting new wheels and tires anyway, nothing radical, probably 17's.

[67cheby]

check out the PORTERBUILT, stage 2 kit, it would give you everything that you are looking for

[tubbedII]

Congrats on the Retirement!

I'd say chances are you'll be fine with keeping the uppers, but the alignment will tell the true story.

[lolife99]

Originally Posted by loridr

Here's where I'm at: I have a 69' C-10 shortbed with 72' suspension I built in the late 90's. I just retired and plan on blowing it apart again and bringing it up to date. Up front it's got tubular control arms (2" boxed lowers) and 2” springs. In the back it has 5" springs (stock panhard bar and I did not relocate the shocks), with a fuel cell between the rails. I pretty much like the stance so will stay with a 4" drop in the front and probably go 6" in the back, and I want to stay with springs, not bags.

I am fully aware that I did the back wrong by not relocating the shocks and installing an adjustable track bar (the darn thing is a pogo stick!), but I don't like the front either as there is absolutely no preload on the springs (you can rattle them around when not under load and they squeak when driving).

Couple of questions:

1. How much better off would I be in the front by switching to spindles/springs and ditching the boxed lower arms? And if I do that, would my old tubular upper arms be compatible with most manufacturers non-dropped lowers or will I need new uppers as well?

2. In the back I’ve been thinking of going to something trick like the CPP Totally Tubular complete kit or the complete ECE setup. Has anyone had any experience with the way these systems perform? Also, other than the exhaust clearance and pinion angle benefits, will one of these systems give me any better ride/handling than just relocating my shocks correctly and installing a good adjustable track bar? I plan on notching the rails no matter which way I decide to go. Bucks aren’t really an issue, but as you all know a dollar saved here is easily spent somewhere else on the ride!

I would really appreciate opinions and input from you guy’s this forum is great.

I would definitely swap the front lower control arms out and switch to drop spindles.
1) If a brake upgrade is in your future, CPP now makes 13" disc brake kits that work with their new 2" Modular Drop spindles.
There are other companies that make big brakes, (Wilwood, Baer, SSBC, McGaughys, etc.),... but it's something to consider when buying spindles.

2) If installing standard drop spindles I highly suggest ECE.

3) The ECE rear kit would have been my first choice,... UNTIL Nathan Porter (www.PorterbuiltStreetRods.com) developed his rear trailing arms, trailing arm crossmember, bolt-in notch, and shock set up.
I would rate this set-up at the top of the industry right now.
Look at the Porterbuilt website, before you purchase anything.
Customer service is also second to none.
(actually everything you need can be purchased thru Porterbuilt)

[loridr]

Thanks Keith.

The Porterbuilt system looks great but it looks like it is designed for bags, not coils, and I definitely want to stay with coils. I couldn't find a price either on the full system, only the economy kit.

Do they make a kit for coils?

Steve

[lolife99]

The "mild drop" is shown with bags, but the trailing arms are designed to be used with springs also.
Send a PM to Porterbuilt.
He will answer all your questions.
Posted via Mobile Device

[loridr]

Thanks again, I'll check it out.

[loridr]

Humm….

So if I would go with the Porterbuilt x-member/trailing arm combo I’d get a 6” drop with 3” springs, right?

I don’t need the notch kit because my rails, from in front of the spring perches to in back of the axel, are already reinforced and boxed with 3/16 plate (frame was rotted so bad I had to replace the metal anyway. I know 3/16 was overkill but I guaran-darn-tee you the area is STRONG, ) so I just need to cut a notch and fab and weld in a filler. I really like their shock location but I can easily fab a similar deal as well and simply bolt or weld it into my existing box plate. Add a good track bar and I’d be good to go.

[Mike Bradbury]

The bolt on notches are considered a bit stronger because they are adding material to the existing frame rather than just filling in the hole where the notch goes. All that said I still like the clean look of the weld in. sounds like you are not concerned about strength though.

Are you going to be fabing the mods or having somebody else do it? Nate's kit is really nice and is mostly bolt in place.

I did the drop spindles and springs in front and Bilstein coil overs in back, 4/6 all together and it rides real nice and not bouncy.

[loridr]

The frame is plenty strong due to the boxing that I did when I built the truck so that's not a concern. I can do all the fab and welding myself as long as I have a good design to go on.

I'm interested in your rear coilover setup, you running a four link? If not, how is it hung and was it a kit or did you design and fab it? CPP had a coilover kit at one time that I'd thought maybe I'd go with when I got around to redoing the truck, but I guess they discontinued it for some reason. I still have that CPP tech sheet and it's crossed my mind to maybe fab someting similar to that as well.

[Mike Bradbury]

Check out my build in my signature. I used a Lincoln 9" and was using coil overs behind the rear axle so custom made my own trailing arms. Bilstein's are awesome shocks and really smooth out the bounce.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by loridr

The frame is plenty strong due to the boxing that I did when I built the truck so that's not a concern. I can do all the fab and welding myself as long as I have a good design to go on.

The strength is in the height of the frame rail. Cut into it for the c-notch, the rail height @ the notch is shorter & strength is diminished. Boxing it in mainly helps torsional rigidity. An engineer from this board ran simulated load/structural analysis on this topic to enlighten many of us. I learned my set-up was estimated @ approx <20% of the original frame strength (5"h C-channel steel @ .1875" wall; .250 3"h notch; .1875" boxing plate).

To help retain as much strength as possible, it needs the extra 'wrap' of steel on multiple sides of the rail the aftermarket kits can provide or height added back to the cut area. CPP offers the heaviest duty (3/8" material) part, Porterbuilts is reinforced as well w/thinner material.

Obviously guys have been running around w/home-made, boxed, c-notch set-ups for years so it can be done. But, knowing how much it potentially weakens the frame in that area, one should consider beefing things up as much as possible (if possible).

[67cheby]

Scoti, would you box the front by the steering notches then ??

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by 67cheby

Scoti, would you box the front by the steering notches then ??

I considered boxing but felt it wouldn't look right w/the DM parts. I used plates for mine that 'sandwich' the notch area (.1875" each). My gut feeling is it's still not ideal (but is stronger than w/o any additional support).

[67cheby]

i have been trying to figure out how to box mine and still be able to get to the bolts for the Dropmember

[loridr]

Scoti,

I figure my rail is pretty strong.

Due to the fact that the spring perch area of the rails were rotted so bad I lined the entire C-channel with 3/16 plate button welded to the original metal in addition to boxing it. That’s one of the reasons the notch kits would be kind of a pain for me as that area of my rails are hardly stock. It would take a little modification to get a kit to fit.

Point well taken though.

[loridr]

Scoti,

Sitting here thinking about it, I’m probably over thinking this whole deal, you know how it is when the wheels get turning. I use this truck only as a sunny day cruiser, in your opinion what do I really need?

Here’s my issues:

1. Most important is to relocate my shocks as they are laid over heavy and are virtually useless. Here’s another area where I’d have modifications to do if I got a kit because when I built the truck I fabed and welded in a custom shock mount cross member and my shock mounts are welded into it, so it’s not just a matter of knocking out a few rivets and bolting in shock relocaters. . My mistake was locating the mounts in the stock position. MAN, I wish I’d found a site like this when I built the darn truck, I was flying blind! To cure this issue I can easily fab a new shock x-member/mount; actually I can probably just cut my custom x-member loose and just relocate it to the optimum position.

2. Cure the occasional bottoming out. That’s why I wanted to do the C notch. Right now I’m only running a 5” rear drop but will probably go to 6”. While I’ve seen a bunch of posts on this site saying you don’t need to C notch if you’re not going lower than 6”, my truck bottoms out occasionally (maybe due to the additional weight of my boxing, custom heavy duty x-members and fuel cell out back?) Is it possible that the rate of my springs is just too low? Maybe all I need for this issue is a heavier rate spring, is there such a thing in a lowered spring?

3. I guess I really should address the pinion angle, especially if I go to 6”, although the way I baby the truck I haven’t been very concerned about it in the past.

[SCOTI]

Get us some pics so we can see what your up against. Like mentioned, the 'old school' half pipe c-notches have been done for years. That doesn't make them right, but they can get the job done.

Pinion angle prob should be verified w/6" drop springs. I use 1-2" blocks plus springs to help w/this as well as shock travel (lowering blocks allow for drop w/o affecting the shock travel dimensions).

It's definitely possible your spring rates could be too soft. How do you like the ride other than the occassional hits from bottoming?

[loridr]

Far as the ride goes…….. It stinks. Like I said above, my shocks are virtually useless. When I get on the slightest washboard road the rear pogo sticks so bad it’s dangerous at highway speed. That’s one of the main reasons I’ve mostly kept the truck parked for the past few years, it’s just not fun to drive it. Now that I’m retired and have the time I want to get it straightened out so I can enjoy it once again.

I currently don’t have the truck apart so can’t really take any good pics of what I have. Below are a couple of pics of the completed chassis from when I built the truck but they don’t really show much detail of the rear suspension. About the only thing you can kinda see is the way I have the area boxed and the custom shock x-member.

I’m in Pennsylvania and don’t have a heated garage so I won’t be blowing things apart until decent weather in the spring. When I do get to it though I’ll definitely post pics and run my thinking past you guy’s again before I do anything; it will be great to have some expertise to go by this time around!

[SCOTI]

Then start w/getting the best travel & positioning of the rear shocks @ the desired ride height. Get the truck sitting where you want it & tweak the current shock mounting to work by either raising the upper mount or lowering the bottoms.

If you can't go either direction there for the mounts (higher or lower), it's time to start looking for a shorter shock that will easily adapt.

[loridr]

Thanks Scoti.

When I get the bed off in the spring I'll post pics and run this past you guy's again.

Steve

[Mike Bradbury]

True that little adjustments can pay huge dividends when referring to suspension, but your suspension does not look all that different from a lot of guys set ups.

Just a elementary question here; Have you had you tires balanced recently? The wheel weights can come off and cause wheel hop. I am sure your shocks need to be relocated like you said but an out of balance tire can be controlled for a while to some extent by newer shocks but after time the shocks give out and the bouncing tire starts to win the battle of physics.

[loridr]

Wheels should be in balance and I doubt if the shocks have 500 miles on them.

Having said that though, when I tear into this thing this spring I'll be certain to have the balance checked, and in addition to relocating the shock mounts I'll be installing new, high quality shocks as well.

I not sure where I bought my suspension stuff back in the 90's but I think it may have been Chisholm Suspension. I doubt that the kit shocks were the best one could buy, especially compared with the stuff available to day.